sorry, i admit i pick and choose what to read for lack of ability to focus...that clarifies things..but IMO, even if his theory is correct, the key word is THEORY (again, capitalized to stress this is not fact)

TODD

 

I agree with Todd, it just seems convenient that the Theory is that oil is the problem and now he has people clamoring for an oil pan group buy, he is good, playing people here like puppets.

It is hard to put a finger on such a theory with so many variables.

 

APS didn't make any money off of the shielded wires.

So this would be the first time they tried to play us like a puppet.

I sincerely doubt Peter is going to go for a group buy.

 

they didnt make money off the wires, you are correct...but this event further promoted the superiority of the aps kit that comes w/ a shielded crank angle sensor wire...out of the box...so, it was indirect promotion...

(i do agree the aps kit is great, but westpak said it perfect-"playing us like puppets".)

 

I don't know why you're so skeptical about what Peter has to say. It all makes sense and the FACT is they built a Turbo kit the right way the first time. Thats the reason that you don't see ANY APS TT cars blowing up. By the time the Greddy kit had been out as long as the APS kit has been there were loads of people with blown motors...and on much lower boost levels to boot.

 

I find it strange that people say he is "playing us like puppets" into the wire issue when if you read the thread he didn't bring up the shielded wire, and secondly, even downplayed it's importance when brought up by gq...

I don't see too many reps from other companies here discussing the inherent danger in going FI and offering theories of what improvements can be made to avoid such things.

I'm not really a fanboy of a particular kit since I'm still deciding what to buy, but from my forum research so far, APS seems like a good choice (although I'll need to save my pennies).

Sometimes the APS reps do tend to oversell their products, but threads like this actually show me that they care about the end users of their kits..

 

Both are very good points -- Are any Greddy reps active in forums anywhere discussing blown motors? (They might be for all I know...)

I have to say that if I were in Peter's position and this theory occurred to me, I would have a very hard time not posting about it. The information could help others AND it makes my product look good at the same time. Win / Win from that perspective.

 

You guys really should calm down a bit. This whole platform is so new that everybody is just DYING to jump on some kind of bandwagon. "What? This is the magic solution? Just buy part X and everything will be ok?!" It's hardly ever that simple... But at the same time, I don't take any offense to Peter's comments and I think it's insulting to him to say his intent was to play anyone like a puppet. He opened a discussion asking for other people's input and feedback and he simply stated his theory. He did not make any sort of crazy marketing claim. If in fact no APS customers have lost a motor, then the only "sales pitch" he threw out there was actually just a statement of fact. I am happy to see anyone that is willing to share information that was gained after many hours of testing and dollars spent. MANY companies would be much more inclined to say "don't worry about why it is, just buy our kit, we have secret mojo built in, etc.". Hell, you could argue that Peter is risking LOSING sales with his statements because now people could do a cheaper Greddy kit and just add the APS pan, if in fact that is a solution to this problem.

A few comments/questions come to my mind:

Has anyone lost a motor on the dyno? In this environment you take g-forces out of the equation and even a stock pan should be able to keep up with the oil consumption. If motors have blown in this environment, it somewhat rules out being a purely baffling related problem. Heat issues may still exist, but doing a few pulls on the dyno should not cause any kind of fatal breakdown on a decent oil.

In my experience, spun bearings are often caused by the rod distorting under load (usually high rpm), this "pinches" the bearing enough that it cuts through the oil layer and makes contact with the spinning crank. When the two surfaces contact, the bearing "spins" in the rod. Bearing wear will be rapid after this. The increased clearance caused by bearing material being scraped away causes "rod knock" and shortly thereafter you can expect the rod bolts to break. Of course, losing oil pressure would have this same result of allowing metal on metal contact, but as someone else pointed out: if it's just based on oil pressure and pan baffling, and not the extra strains from the increased HP, there should be more NA road racers losing motors than FI street guys.

It hardly seems that enough evidence has been presented on either side of this issue a) to buy into 100% or b) to ignore it.

And for those that think it's just "insane" to think you can make 400+rwhp reliably on a stock motor, just remember there was a time when the 2JZ was thought to max out around that power level. Did somebody from Toyota sneak back into all of our garages and add forged internals? Nope, in fact, our motors are even older and in theory weaker now than they were back then. And yet 600-800rwhp on STOCK motors is so commonplace now that you don't even get credit for hitting these marks. So don't rule out the VQ in stock form just yet. (Of course my money is on the '05 motors being even stronger, especially in the rod department )

It all remains to be seen!!

 

Note that the Jim Wolf TT kit for the VQ35 includes an oil pan spacer to increase the amount of oil available, so maybe there's something to this theory.

 

this is not an anti-aps conspiracy! this is an observation that others seem to be in aggreement with...

calm down cowboys... i could be totally wrong about this whole dealio...but i'm not too worried either way, just stating an observation!

and i don't think it is unthinkable to get over 400rwhp on a stock vq...i'm just one that has to plan for this little thing called the future...i like to somewhat "know" that i can drive nice and fast on monday and drive just as fast come friday...not paranoid that any day is the day that my rods can puncture my block, providing windows that i never asked for...or as ernie once so perfectly stated, "giving me the proverbial finger" (yes, we know rods don't have fingers)...it's about reliability and consistancy, not..."hey uncle skeeter, i made 440 whp on this here vehicle"...meaningless if there is so little sense of security!

and again, this is not anti-aps or anti-peter...sounds like a great guy to me- just interesting, that's all...

 

the funny thing about this, even with all of this said, i'll be buying an APS oil pan very soon... how ironic!

 

Okay, I have tried to stay out of APS's thread but I can't. It seems that within hours of my "How to do Twins right the first time" thread, APS came out with their thread to calm everyone down to not worry about forged internals. I posted that "How to plan" in four different Z forums, and it was quickly followed by APS threads on their new "Oil theory". I have nothing to gain by sharing my experiences and advice with everyone. I am just trying to make sure that anyone that goes FI makes an informed decision about the risks involved. I will be fair and say that APS stated forged internals are not necessary, "As long as you keep it at stock boost, good safe tune, good gas,..."
I stated in my plan that you should go the internal route first, if you want to do it right the first time. If you say that getting forged internals is too expensive to do, then I really don't think you should be taking this "calculated risk" with FI. If you go FI and rely on always getting good gas and a good safe tune, you are still taking a calculated risk! Even if you tell yourself you will keep everything stock, there are so many upgrades out there from plenums to test pipes to get more and more power. Its especially easy with turbos to "get just a few more horses". My thread was not intended to make a dent in anyone's sales of TTs, SCs, or any other FI issue. It was intended to make sure anyone that goes the FI route makes an informed decision! I hope that no one that goes FI without forged internals has to start from scratch and order everything required to get their Z back on the road because they blew their engine.

As far as the Oil theory is concerned....
I am confident that the engineers at APS are some of the best in the world when it comes to R and D of engines. But it seems to me to make such bold statements about peoples engines blowing without seeing all the evidence. Its kind of like being a airplane crash investigator and being at home watching the news and seeing a 1 min reel of some footage of a crash site. Then, boldly pointing out the flaw that caused this plane to crash. That is exactly whats happening here.

Everyone that goes FI needs to remember that this is YOUR Z and don't let anyone try to put your worst fears to rest. You need to be informed and hope for the best, but make sure you plan for the worst.

Now for the VQ-35DE.
The Nissan Engineers designed an engine to put down 235rwhp. With any TT kit, even at the conservative pressure setting, you are going to see at least 50%more power(~350rwhp) than the engine is designed for. When our engines were built at the factory, running those kind of power levels was not in the design! A great example of this is the clearances of the rod and main bearings. If you open up a Nissan tech manual and look at the "clearances" for the bearings, there is a big range that is "acceptable". I mean, lets just say for example only, one week the engines coming out might have tight clearances, but their okay because they're within spec. But, next week the engines coming out might be on the loose side of clearances, but those too are okay because they're within the design limits the Nissan engineers planned for!!! What you have are engines that are being mass produced with certain specifications for the amount of power they are rated for. Another example, is the new ZO6 corvette that is will have 500hp at the engine. It is being built with a built bottom end to handle those kind of power levels! Not trying to make a corvette commercial here, but the rods will be made out of titanium. Crystal clear example that the design is intended for those power levels!

 

Please understand that having "backup vehicles" is only one of the issues you will deal with, out of the many. Like, "okay guys I just blew my engine, what do I do?" If you get an APS kit, at the very minimum like Todd stated, you MUST plan to do forged internals. Now thats a back up plan.

 

i agree

i'd have to agree with you too..

i mean if there are certain problems that needs to be addressed, i think other products or DIY projects could be suggested instead of suggesting only their product is the only life saver for the engine.

for example the cooling of the oil.... a suggestion could be made that you can buy a oil filter adapter to replace the stock oil cooler for a front mount oil cooler..

similar to this


to me that would be more helpful instead of always suggesting to buy their products.. I mean there are more solutions out there and it would be nice to see some posted up on this board instead of promoting products....

As for the shielded wire.. My question would be: are there materials you can use to cover up the wire?? It would be good if there are.. Would that solution be effective instead of buy the whole turbo kit?

I am all for DIY.....

 

First off, you should ALWAYS be skeptical no matter who says something. Its having a questioning attitude is what is going to save you in the end. Don't just take 1 persons advice. Especially when it was stated from the begining that its a THEORY and when you have YOUR engine on the line.

 

Nope, no DIY for the shielded wire. The alternative would be to buy from CJ-Motorsports. I don't think APS sells it seperately.

 

On a side note here, I could make titanium rods for an OEM honda engine (like an S2000), but just because they are titanium doesn't mean they can handle boost. The Z06 rods are titanium because they can make them the same strength as steel by using less material and then saving weight.

Look at the C5 corvette, it's got two more cylinders and 2.2 more liters, but I saw that builders become concerned with the stock internals when getting close to ~490 whp. That's really not that much more than a Z car but with 2 extra rods to distribute the power to.

Remember that a "built" bottom end for an American car is only marginally stronger than a stock bottom end for most Japanese cars(well, at least Nissans).

 

Who ever said that I or anyone else was taking ONE PERSON'S ADVICE??? I've been reading, observing, collecting all the information that I can regarding FI since the freaking ATI procharger came out (first FI for the Z). Furthermore, I've been around VQ motors since well before the 350Z was even a Nissan design idea. Maybe skeptical wasn't the right word to use. But whatever. The point is I've been around this "talk" for quite some time now, and around VQs, incuding the boosted variety even longer. So I'm not just sitting here and soaking up someone else possible BS.

As for your "Nissan designed this motor for 235rwhp"...that's complete BS. They would have to be idiots to only design the internals of the motor to handle the target power levels. Overengineering is one foundation for RELIABILITY in the auto industry. Ever hear of the 2JZ-GTE?? I guess that motor was only "designed" to put down around 270-280whp....who knew?

All I believe this thread is trying to get across is that forged internals or not, this could be a major issue and while you say "build the motor", I say "if you consequently blow up the built motor because of a issue such as oil starvation which wasn't addressed, then you're even further in the hole than the guy who blows up his stock motor". I'll take my chances with the stocker for now until I see some real evidence that issues like this are not a problem or that their is a surefire way to resolve them.

 

Just wanted to get in on this thread!

 

they definately didn't design the motor to handle DOUBLE the power output...be realistic here!!!

and, this is not a personal attack against you, you can put down your guard..this discussion is long overdue, i've been thinking this everytime a new THEORY comes out...this site is the best 350z site there is, lots of helpful info, many thinking minds, but just as ernie stated...the airplane crash scenario is right on...and it's a bit annoying at times!

TODD