Are stock rods suitable for FI VQ engines?
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From: Atlanta
Seems like there is a fair bit of disagreement with Peter on this issue. What I'm curious about is if there is actually a bearing problem?
From what I understand, all the rebuilds are using stock bearings (due to lack of alternatives) and shooting for largish clearances. Aside from the benefits of large clearances, there is also the fact that the big end bearing housing will be stiffer due to forged rods (less potential bearing deflection). Is it reasonable to expect the bearings to hold up well in a built engine even though they don't have any more surface area and are of stock material and thickness?
BTW, has anyone tracked the actual number of blown engines posted here where there were no signs of detonation? From my foggy memory, it seems most had melted pistons and/or chunks missing from the ring lands to go along with any additional engine damage.
Thanks
Jeff
From what I understand, all the rebuilds are using stock bearings (due to lack of alternatives) and shooting for largish clearances. Aside from the benefits of large clearances, there is also the fact that the big end bearing housing will be stiffer due to forged rods (less potential bearing deflection). Is it reasonable to expect the bearings to hold up well in a built engine even though they don't have any more surface area and are of stock material and thickness?
BTW, has anyone tracked the actual number of blown engines posted here where there were no signs of detonation? From my foggy memory, it seems most had melted pistons and/or chunks missing from the ring lands to go along with any additional engine damage.
Thanks
Jeff
We all know that the supra factory rods are pretty damn strong. I have heard that they are not forged, but I have never personally seen one. Does anyone have a picture of a supra factory rod to compare to the Z rod?
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Originally Posted by jeffw
Seems like there is a fair bit of disagreement with Peter on this issue.
I'm still very confident that a continous reliable supply of engine oil under high load engine conditions will pay big dividends, I'd be willing to bet that nearly all VQ turbocharged engines will be running a hi volime air cooled oil pan with improved baffling around the oil pickup over the next 12 months, let's wait and see, I'm sure time will prove my belief to be correct.
Thanks
Peter
Originally Posted by nis350ztt
Below...
stock 2JZGTE connecting rod...
Below that...
stock 350Z rod and piston on top...Arias piston and Pauter rod on bottom...
stock 2JZGTE connecting rod...
Below that...
stock 350Z rod and piston on top...Arias piston and Pauter rod on bottom...
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From: Australia
Originally Posted by nis350ztt
Below...
stock 2JZGTE connecting rod...
Below that...
stock 350Z rod and piston on top...Arias piston and Pauter rod on bottom...
stock 2JZGTE connecting rod...
Below that...
stock 350Z rod and piston on top...Arias piston and Pauter rod on bottom...
Are you sure that a stock 2JZGTE rod?
Looks more like an after market con rod to me, please confirm.
Peter
Last edited by APS; Mar 14, 2005 at 12:27 AM.
Originally Posted by nis350ztt
Below...
stock 2JZGTE connecting rod...
stock 2JZGTE connecting rod...
i am 90% sure this is not a stock Supra rod. They have a rougher finish to them.
This looks very much like a typical H-beam aftermarket rod, like Eagle, or Carillo.
Maybe I am wrong???
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From: austin
Originally Posted by APS
Are you sure that a stock 2JZGTE rod?
Looks more like an after market con rod to me, please confirm.
Peter
Looks more like an after market con rod to me, please confirm.
Peter
I find this much more likely to be a picture of a stock Supra rod. They look beefier than the stock VQ35DE rods, but not nearly as thick as an aftermarket forged H-beam rod. With that said, we know that VQ35DE rods are forged, but I am not aware of the composition of a stock 2JZ-GTE rod. Does anyone else know? I know there are a few guys here who are current or former MKIV Supra owners.
Matt
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From: Valdosta, GA
Hmm, must not be the stock 2JZGTE rod...I asked an mk4 supra owner if he had a pic and he sent me one that he said he didn't think it was stock and then sent me a second one (the one I posted) that he said he was pretty sure it was stock, it said it was stock (maybe it was on a forum or something)...I was going to Yahoo!™ (lol) it today and see if I could find something. My mistake guys...
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From: Australia
Originally Posted by azrael
A quick google image search yields this:
I find this much more likely to be a picture of a stock Supra rod. They look beefier than the stock VQ35DE rods, but not nearly as thick as an aftermarket forged H-beam rod. With that said, we know that VQ35DE rods are forged, but I am not aware of the composition of a stock 2JZ-GTE rod. Does anyone else know? I know there are a few guys here who are current or former MKIV Supra owners.
Matt
I find this much more likely to be a picture of a stock Supra rod. They look beefier than the stock VQ35DE rods, but not nearly as thick as an aftermarket forged H-beam rod. With that said, we know that VQ35DE rods are forged, but I am not aware of the composition of a stock 2JZ-GTE rod. Does anyone else know? I know there are a few guys here who are current or former MKIV Supra owners.
Matt
Peter
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From: Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted by JonathanG35
Here is what may be a stupid idea:
The amount of power the factory rods can handle has always been a matter of conjecture - would it be possible to take a rod and put it in some type of hydraulic press and apply pressure on it until it breaks and translate that pressure to a relative hp or torque value? I realize you may have to sample several rods to get a base line value. With all the people getting forged internals there may be some extra rods around that could be donors.
The amount of power the factory rods can handle has always been a matter of conjecture - would it be possible to take a rod and put it in some type of hydraulic press and apply pressure on it until it breaks and translate that pressure to a relative hp or torque value? I realize you may have to sample several rods to get a base line value. With all the people getting forged internals there may be some extra rods around that could be donors.
Does anyone have any ideas as to how we may determine the tolerable hp levels for the rods in and of themselves?
We need to try to reduce the variability in the equation of building hp with the VQ.
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From: Valdosta, GA
Originally Posted by JonathanG35
i posted this idea on page 6 or so and it kinda died off so I will put it a different way:
Does anyone have any ideas as to how we may determine the tolerable hp levels for the rods in and of themselves?
We need to try to reduce the variability in the equation of building hp with the VQ.
Does anyone have any ideas as to how we may determine the tolerable hp levels for the rods in and of themselves?
We need to try to reduce the variability in the equation of building hp with the VQ.
The only other way would be to take it to a tuner that we know KNOWS how to tune and keep raising the boost and adjusting and see where they snap.
The hydraulic press sounds like a great idea though, we probably have 4 or 5 rods from every buildup and ~5 buildups, that's plenty.
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From: Atlanta
This PDF has some good stuff in it about testing rods.
http://www.autosteel.org/pdfs/gdis_2004_fatemi.pdf
I think the key is that you don't want to just compress the rod till it breaks. You really want to do some sort of cyclical stressing of the rod.
--
Jeff
http://www.autosteel.org/pdfs/gdis_2004_fatemi.pdf
I think the key is that you don't want to just compress the rod till it breaks. You really want to do some sort of cyclical stressing of the rod.
--
Jeff
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From: Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted by jeffw
This PDF has some good stuff in it about testing rods.
http://www.autosteel.org/pdfs/gdis_2004_fatemi.pdf
I think the key is that you don't want to just compress the rod till it breaks. You really want to do some sort of cyclical stressing of the rod.
--
Jeff
http://www.autosteel.org/pdfs/gdis_2004_fatemi.pdf
I think the key is that you don't want to just compress the rod till it breaks. You really want to do some sort of cyclical stressing of the rod.
--
Jeff
Than pdf was great info - thanks
Peter, I was re-assembling my motor and oil pans last night, I can tell you with absolute 100% certainty, that there is no way for the pickup to be starved of oil under any conditions....unless the car had about 1-2qt of oil in it total.
If you take a look at the stock oil pan, it is very shallow, and holds maybe 1qt of oil at the most. The rest of the oil is in the upper oil pan. Now, the pickup sets very low. It actually sits about halfway into the LOWER oil pan. So if you picture that in your head, there would have to be close to 1qt of total oil in the car for that pickup to be starved. even under acceleration or side to side cornering, there is no way that 4 qts of oil would evacuate from the area that the pickup sits in.
That said, I still recommend the APS oil pan, primarily for the increased oil capacity, and better cooling ability. I would highly recommend it as a precaution for anyone running F/I on their cars.
But the fact is, there is no oil starvation issue, as it relates to the oil pan and pickup location. If there is an issue with oil starvation, it has nothing to do with the oil pan and pickup location.
Hope this helps.
Sharif
If you take a look at the stock oil pan, it is very shallow, and holds maybe 1qt of oil at the most. The rest of the oil is in the upper oil pan. Now, the pickup sets very low. It actually sits about halfway into the LOWER oil pan. So if you picture that in your head, there would have to be close to 1qt of total oil in the car for that pickup to be starved. even under acceleration or side to side cornering, there is no way that 4 qts of oil would evacuate from the area that the pickup sits in.
That said, I still recommend the APS oil pan, primarily for the increased oil capacity, and better cooling ability. I would highly recommend it as a precaution for anyone running F/I on their cars.
But the fact is, there is no oil starvation issue, as it relates to the oil pan and pickup location. If there is an issue with oil starvation, it has nothing to do with the oil pan and pickup location.
Hope this helps.
Sharif
Originally Posted by gq_626
Peter, I was re-assembling my motor and oil pans last night, I can tell you with absolute 100% certainty, that there is no way for the pickup to be starved of oil under any conditions....unless the car had about 1-2qt of oil in it total.
If you take a look at the stock oil pan, it is very shallow, and holds maybe 1qt of oil at the most. The rest of the oil is in the upper oil pan. Now, the pickup sets very low. It actually sits about halfway into the LOWER oil pan. So if you picture that in your head, there would have to be close to 1qt of total oil in the car for that pickup to be starved. even under acceleration or side to side cornering, there is no way that 4 qts of oil would evacuate from the area that the pickup sits in.
That said, I still recommend the APS oil pan, primarily for the increased oil capacity, and better cooling ability. I would highly recommend it as a precaution for anyone running F/I on their cars.
But the fact is, there is no oil starvation issue, as it relates to the oil pan and pickup location. If there is an issue with oil starvation, it has nothing to do with the oil pan and pickup location.
Hope this helps.
Sharif
If you take a look at the stock oil pan, it is very shallow, and holds maybe 1qt of oil at the most. The rest of the oil is in the upper oil pan. Now, the pickup sets very low. It actually sits about halfway into the LOWER oil pan. So if you picture that in your head, there would have to be close to 1qt of total oil in the car for that pickup to be starved. even under acceleration or side to side cornering, there is no way that 4 qts of oil would evacuate from the area that the pickup sits in.
That said, I still recommend the APS oil pan, primarily for the increased oil capacity, and better cooling ability. I would highly recommend it as a precaution for anyone running F/I on their cars.
But the fact is, there is no oil starvation issue, as it relates to the oil pan and pickup location. If there is an issue with oil starvation, it has nothing to do with the oil pan and pickup location.
Hope this helps.
Sharif
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Originally Posted by gq_626
Peter, I was re-assembling my motor and oil pans last night, I can tell you with absolute 100% certainty, that there is no way for the pickup to be starved of oil under any conditions....unless the car had about 1-2qt of oil in it total.
Originally Posted by gq_626
If you take a look at the stock oil pan, it is very shallow, and holds maybe 1qt of oil at the most. The rest of the oil is in the upper oil pan. Now, the pickup sets very low.
Originally Posted by gq_626
It actually sits about halfway into the LOWER oil pan. So if you picture that in your head, there would have to be close to 1qt of total oil in the car for that pickup to be starved. even under acceleration or side to side cornering, there is no way that 4 qts of oil would evacuate from the area that the pickup sits in.
Originally Posted by gq_626
That said, I still recommend the APS oil pan, primarily for the increased oil capacity, and better cooling ability. I would highly recommend it as a precaution for anyone running F/I on their cars.
Thanks
Peter