LOL... I don't know what everyone is getting so worked up here for. I got a quote from Charles and an invoice from him that did not match the quote. I asked for opinions. I found that it is fair. I am paying for it.

Nobody here questions their bill when it is more than double the quote????? COME ON.

Jeff

 

No problem. That is what I am finding out with everything I do with the Z. (lower quotes to get business or sell parts) that is why this is so discouraging to me.

Jeff

 

miscommunication....reminded me of my favorite quote.

"One of my favorite words is "miscommunication." Its meaning has become so broad as to justify everything from the Middle East crisis to why a relative missed the wedding. In the business world, vendors and clients alike use it to explain away huge mistakes and, best of all, without assigning responsibility to anyone. It is the verbal Get-Out-of-Jail card for the '90s."

~ Joe Mcdonald
from Washington Post

 

So on top off a fully built motor, you guys did his flywheel and clutch and shifter,which we normally charge $650 to do..And this kid is complaining?? He got a hella deal for $7000..I think it was unfair for him to post all his opinions without the facts first.You guys did a HELL of alot more than install an APS kit and the title of the thread decieves the reader from the start..

 

Gotta love magazine/newspaper/etc. writers, they can be so colorful sometimes.

 

I think the pricing was fair as well. But i also think that a person should stick to their quote. There are alot of people like myself that save for a big project like this and are on a budget. Its to easy for a dishonest mechanic to say you needed this and you needed that so your bill is now $2000 more. Business is Business and if there is an agreement on price then it should be that price.(unless parties involved have agreed that price may change.)

 

650.00 for a flywheel/clutch install when the engine is already out, what shop is yours so I can avoid it.

As for the invoice, if you had a quote at half the final invoice what are differences between the quote and final invoice, it does seem like a hell of a surprise.

 

Sorry,Under normal surcumstances where we would have to pull the tranny out. If i were to do the clutch and flywheel on a job where the tranny was out already I would charge about $250 with the short shifter as it would take my mechanics about 2 hours to do it right and properly TQ the flywheel bolts.We charge $100 more off the top for Tilton Flywheel and clutch setups cause they need EXTRA machine work to fit properly.
If this guy was my customer and bought the clutch from me I would probably have only hit him off with about $150 on install. But when a customer brings me the parts, I charge my full hourly labor rate. A tranny removal and reinstall without the clutch and flywheel is in the books for about 3.5 hours on a Nissan 350Z. Add 2 hours to do the Clutch,flywheel and shifter..People think mechanics work for free???

 

Everyone take note that Jeff did not drop my name in here... The reason I did was because I had nothing to hide. This matter is not going to make me loose sleep in the sense that I know that I did not rip anyone off, and I know that I did the best we could and charged a fair price for it.

The only reason I may loose sleep is cause I am affraid that Jeff is not going to be happy with his car now.

This industry does not make the little man like me rich. I sacraficed many potential careers to take the route in which I felt I would be happier in life. This whole game is a lot of fun and makes me very happy and there is nothing more satisfying about it then showing the customer their new setup and hearing about how much fun they are having with it....

If i had charged more, I would gladly discount the labor further to help compensate for the misunderstanding... but unfortunatly its not at all a reasonable decision for me to make ZERO or a loss on a full build project which statistically has the highest rate of small future problems that are (at the builders discretion) a responsability of the business to take care of... over what is (honestly in this business) a measly couple grand on a full build project.

The worst part of this entire situation is the degradation of my relationship with Jeff. There could be no worse situation than the owner of a car and the builder of a car not having a positive relationship. This leaves room for all kinds of additional ******** down the road.

What happens if there is an exhaust leak in 2000 miles? What happens if there is a small problem that arrises that needs immediate attention? Do I get to look forward to a nice public bashing of how I screwed someone over? How do I know the owner isnt going to go and beat the **** out of the car and try and hold me responsible?

There is nothing wrong with a disagreement but everyone has to be resonable and work together otherwise things can get ugly.

As I stated to you on the phone Jeff... due to circumstances there was obviously no way around a slight arguement to correct the problem at hand. I understand the confusion, and I understand you questioning the invoice. I apologize for the misunderstanding. But I am not content until you are actually HAPPY paying the invoice, not pissed off and paying it because you just want your car back.

I just want the misunderstanding cleared up, I want you to pay for the car, I want you to be HAPPY with the car, and I want to remain in positive future contact with you so I can help make sure your car stays in good running condition. Cars like these need someone to keep an eye on things... and there is no one better to do that then the people who built it.

There is NOTHING unreasonable at all about you questioning the unexpected invoice. I was definatly caught off guard, but I am not offended about that at all... and I hope that you are not.. and I just hope that we can be comfortable with which other and maintain a relationship for the sake of your enjoyment with the car and the cars future.

 

I guess I'll put in my 2 cents.

I respect that Jeff never said the name of the shop, he was just looking for some 350z brothers/sisters to look at his install and see if he got ripped off. Most people seen 7 G's and agreed he was ripped, until Charles brought in the invoice.

Charles was cool to post the invoice and all the details, most shops would say, "F-U, pay the bill". And if Charles was honest in what he billed for and how he billed, the price was fair

BUT.

Facts are: Charles quoted the Labor at $2500 and was off by $1,000, which is like 15 hours. I would personally be against this if I didn't add any "extra things" along the way, like gauges, boost controller, Furry dice, and etc. I think we all know that Charles ripped his motor out and put it back in, so he should have been able to give a pretty detailed estimate in the first place.

Did he purposely leave this info out? I doubt it, because most "big" shops don’t want to **** off a customer and be known as a place that rips you off.

I wouldn't attack Jeff or Charles on this whole issue. I think it was cool that Jeff posted and it was even cooler that Charles responded.

Anyone that has ever built a motor or installed a turbo kit knows that it's a BIG A$$ HEADACHE, but in the end, if your car is running right and the PHHSSST Sound is smooth. It's all worth it.

Charles, I'm going to be in Chicago on business this and I'd like to stop by. Pm me what days you'll be at the shop. Hopefully Jeff won't pick his car up until Tuesday night, I wanna check it out :-)

 

 

Not to beat a dead horse, and I appreciate all the commentary to help us all come to a better understanding... but I want to add that there NEVER WAS A QUOTE. There was only brief phone conversations about costs of certain parts of the project.

The lack of communication was only on the billing side. Honestly I thought my billing was so damn resonable that I never even brought it up... sorry my mistake.

There was endless communication updating the customer several times per week, sometimes several times a day... it was never implied that all these updates of progress and what we were doing was going to be free of charge.

I never intended to trick anyone.

Last but not least... even if there ever was a real quote here... a quote is a quote... the reason its called a quote and not your actual invoice is because its just a quote. Quotes are not legal contracts and only apply to the obvious.

 

I hear you, I deal with estimates for jet engine repairs and final invoice always comes in higher and we are dealing with invoices of 1M+, so what we try to do is keep updated as to additional costs as the repair process goes on, so just to avoid these kind of problems in the future you might want to keep the customer updated with costs as they accrue so they are not surprised at the end. This is a regular thing for you but for the customer it might be the first time so they do not know or understand the process or to high cost projects.

 

I dont think he is going to be in the mood to authorize any rides. But unfortunatly I find myself at the shop 7 days a week typically at least 12 hours a day. Call any time, I can be hard to get on the phone since theres only a pair of us here full time to juggle all the events in a week... so if you leave a voicemail I will call back.

 

I completely agree with what you are saying. Not sure if you caught it earlier but I mentioned how I regret not sending updates to the owner. Almost all of our build projects get pretty much weekly invoices to keep things in line... I think for some reason I thought to myself that this project was going so smooth and resulting with so little "hidden" fees that I just overlooked it.

It doesnt take being in the game long enough to learn about the 3x rule.... 3x as expensive and 3x as long, and if you try and factor that in before hand you screw yourself out of another 3x on top of that.

 

I still find it hard to believe this kid had no idea of what kind of cash he was spending on this project.What did he think? All that work was to be done for $2500??? Im sorry but you do not get involved in a project like that and not know the possible costs..

 

I am not used to it... but I do not blame him for the confusion. Not everyone knows how much it all costs the first time thru... I only wish that at some point during the time the car spent here that I was more clear on things... and as several times before I apologize and wish there was more I really could do to make better.

 

Sucks that it all had to go down like this. I'd be terrified if I heard 2500 quote somewhere in there and then recieved the bill for 7000. It seems like the customer was just uninformed about all the little things that go on, but at the same time was not educated by the shop that all these little things will have to be paid for.....definitely some miscommunications. Sorry to see the relationship gone sour. Prices should have definitely been mentioned especially if the person is not very familiar with FI to begin with. It def sounds like a fair price but was still unexpected. Estimates should be given beforehand and that should be that. I can understand paying a few hundred extra but not thousands in the end. Anyways hope all works out in the end for you guys. I'll definitely have to get a full quote before I get this done bc I can't wind up spending crazy amounts of money like that. Bottom line is it should all be laid out in front of you before the car goes in....thats what a good shop does.

 

edit... ehh forget it.

 

Excellent Point!