Turbonetics Install Complete and dynoed!!
05-11-2005, 03:30 PM
#61
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 350zDCalb
no, you are totally correct 
altitude will affect boost, but not by much, we have consistantly seen fI cars here produce at least one pound less psi than the rated value at sea level, this of course is referring to the net effect on cylinder pressure...when dealing with less dense air from the beginning, when it is compressed and fed into the cylinder, it will be of a lower net psi pressure...so, at this altitude, running a boost controller with another 1-2psi, will create a similar cylinder pressure as to what would be had at sea level..
this was discussed thoroughly, several times on this forum in the past, corky bell touches on it briefly in his book, but, more importantly, a physics 101 class would bring most of this to light.
altitude will affect boost, but not by much, we have consistantly seen fI cars here produce at least one pound less psi than the rated value at sea level, this of course is referring to the net effect on cylinder pressure...when dealing with less dense air from the beginning, when it is compressed and fed into the cylinder, it will be of a lower net psi pressure...so, at this altitude, running a boost controller with another 1-2psi, will create a similar cylinder pressure as to what would be had at sea level..
this was discussed thoroughly, several times on this forum in the past, corky bell touches on it briefly in his book, but, more importantly, a physics 101 class would bring most of this to light.
The first numbers were a little low, but like I said, we do a little tweaking, make some adjustments, we'd get the numbers. Let me say again... ELEVATION does NOT affect these power numbers.
05-11-2005, 07:25 PM
#62
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Speed Dreams
NOW we can! New #'S....382.9 WHP, 375.2 TQ, SAE corrected, @ 8.5lbs boost 11.0 A/F.
Will scan and post dyno graph this evening.
Will scan and post dyno graph this evening.
So what was the trick? What is it that you did to squeeze out almost 40 more? You were already running at 8.5 five to begin with right? Does the kit come with diffierent washers to use in the waste gate, or do you have to order them seperately? Good job and congrats!!!
05-11-2005, 08:26 PM
#63
Sponsor
builtZmotors
builtZmotors
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 2,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpeedDreamTuner
Well your absolutely wrong. We've done tons of FI installs and tunes on cars and trucks and we rarely encounter boost loss due to elevation. Warmer weather and overspun turbos and blowers have that effect 10 fold to elevation. It's all relative, I suggest you learn about that a little bit more.
The first numbers were a little low, but like I said, we do a little tweaking, make some adjustments, we'd get the numbers. Let me say again... ELEVATION does NOT affect these power numbers.
The first numbers were a little low, but like I said, we do a little tweaking, make some adjustments, we'd get the numbers. Let me say again... ELEVATION does NOT affect these power numbers.
Here's a pretty good explanation:
"Its not that you dont lose as much with a turbo, but the turbo can work until it hits pressure set by the wastegate. Ill expalin a few lines down. SO we have thinner air..and it does affect all cars. THe air that goes into the intake of an NA car is the same as the air that goes into the inlet of a turbo. The thing with the turbo is...because its exhaust driven and pressure controlled, it simply just "works harder" to get to the same boost. A turbo setup that will make 10 psi at sealevel will also make 10psi at 6000ft, but it will be spinning faster, as it isnt limited by a mechanical drive or anything like that. The wastegate wont open til the turbo hits 10psi, so therefore the turbo will jsut spin and spin til it gets there...And once that turbo is pushing out its 10psi up here...its 10 psi of less-dense air to start with so ultimately its less powerful ^^^see the corky bell explanation above. Now, with a blower...its mechanically driven and spins as fast as the motor does...it cannot make the same boost pressure at higher altitude as compared to the same setup at sealevel. I had a 12psi pulley on my vortech blower that was making 9~psi here...again just compressing less dense air so you get less pressure. Since its mechanically driven, a blower cant "speed itself up" to compensate like a turbo can. Given my evidence above id say this is the break down: Turbo is least affected, albeit it is...SC is also affected, more than turbo but less than NA, and NA is really affected. T>SC>NA"
that's funny coming from you guys..you are the first shop that informed me about this phenomenon...frisbee and tripp both explained this, to be exact...
then it has been re-confirmed by many other tuners that i have consulted with out of state...
only in the case of your guys' explanation, it was attempting to cover up a boost leak that you couldn't find...can you believe that...this is really pathetic..
...i'll go on,
so, you guys tried to tell me that a tt greddy kit, which is set at 5.6psi with the stock wastegate spring..would only produce 2psi because of our altitude
wrong!!!...but there was some truth to the loss...the intercooler accounts for almost 1psi of loss, ...
so, the comment about me "learning a little bit more"...soooooo funny to me...you guys just keep on "tuning"...
best of luck to you
Last edited by 350zDCalb; 05-11-2005 at 08:45 PM.
05-11-2005, 09:01 PM
#64
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, weren't you the kid at the track that had his car smoking? You said it was anti-freeze and me and a few other people laughed at you? I'm pretty sure that was you, and then you said it was gas because you were running rich. I told you it was oil, and that it was a blown turbo seal. Then I commented on how bad your motor sounded.
Your coming on here like your a guru and your the authority about everything including Z's and your sponsored by 18 different companies and such. I was warned by some of your so called freinds not to argue with you because your just misinformed. That's pretty much true.
I don't even want to begin breaking down your post. I didn't tell you anything about your Greddy kit, I wasn't there, so your 'you guys' comments don't pertain to me. You can quote all the Corky Bell **** in the world. Do you really believe everything written in books?
I'm sorry, but with your lack of knowledge at the track, and as poor of a driver as you were, I don't buy a word you say about you being sponsored, and i'm certainly not going to get into any form of a technical debate with you. Anyone driving around on a tt'd built engine car that has NO TUNING as YOU say, doesn't earn the credit to discuss even basic oil changing.
Your coming on here like your a guru and your the authority about everything including Z's and your sponsored by 18 different companies and such. I was warned by some of your so called freinds not to argue with you because your just misinformed. That's pretty much true.
I don't even want to begin breaking down your post. I didn't tell you anything about your Greddy kit, I wasn't there, so your 'you guys' comments don't pertain to me. You can quote all the Corky Bell **** in the world. Do you really believe everything written in books?
I'm sorry, but with your lack of knowledge at the track, and as poor of a driver as you were, I don't buy a word you say about you being sponsored, and i'm certainly not going to get into any form of a technical debate with you. Anyone driving around on a tt'd built engine car that has NO TUNING as YOU say, doesn't earn the credit to discuss even basic oil changing.
05-11-2005, 09:12 PM
#65
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 1 2 NV
So what was the trick? What is it that you did to squeeze out almost 40 more? You were already running at 8.5 five to begin with right? Does the kit come with diffierent washers to use in the waste gate, or do you have to order them seperately? Good job and congrats!!!
05-11-2005, 09:15 PM
#66
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: LI, NY
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
7 PSI is 7 PSI no matter where you are. The arguement that the turbos are working harder is not really much of an issue when you have a turbo that is working nowhere near the capacity. All that happens is that the turbo is given more exhaust to produce boost. That has very little parasitic effect at all.
In reality, the loss from a turbocharged engine at altitude should be very low.
In reality, the loss from a turbocharged engine at altitude should be very low.
05-11-2005, 09:28 PM
#67
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well one way of looking at it is this...
Take the ocean for example. Pressure closer to the surface is less, while pressure down deeper is more. This is as close of an example as I can illustrate. Most people argue air is lense dense, which it is, but there isn't any less of it. Making a point with water is a much more material way of describing this.
Lets say you have a pump on a boat that moves 500 RPM and moves 500 gallons a minute and has a discharge pressure of 100 PSI. Now it moves exactly that at 300 or whatever feet below the surface where the pressure is supposedly higher. (sea level)
Now you take the pump up to 3 feet, and it's going to move the same because there isn't any less water, just less pressure on the intake side which the blower doesn't care about because it moves x air at y speed.
Theres a test conducted by some engineers at Jackson or Magnusson somewhere. They pressurized the intake side of a blower or a turbo and it didn't change the output becuase the increase in pressure was so little (10PSI or something, even less than elevation change) that the blower was operating at full capacity either way. All things being equal your guage will be referenced to atmosphere, (at 0 when the engines off) and a 10 PSI kit should see 10 PSI on your guage either place.
Again, this is all a pretty moot point, as the SAE correction factor takes care of most of that.
Take the ocean for example. Pressure closer to the surface is less, while pressure down deeper is more. This is as close of an example as I can illustrate. Most people argue air is lense dense, which it is, but there isn't any less of it. Making a point with water is a much more material way of describing this.
Lets say you have a pump on a boat that moves 500 RPM and moves 500 gallons a minute and has a discharge pressure of 100 PSI. Now it moves exactly that at 300 or whatever feet below the surface where the pressure is supposedly higher. (sea level)
Now you take the pump up to 3 feet, and it's going to move the same because there isn't any less water, just less pressure on the intake side which the blower doesn't care about because it moves x air at y speed.
Theres a test conducted by some engineers at Jackson or Magnusson somewhere. They pressurized the intake side of a blower or a turbo and it didn't change the output becuase the increase in pressure was so little (10PSI or something, even less than elevation change) that the blower was operating at full capacity either way. All things being equal your guage will be referenced to atmosphere, (at 0 when the engines off) and a 10 PSI kit should see 10 PSI on your guage either place.
Again, this is all a pretty moot point, as the SAE correction factor takes care of most of that.
05-11-2005, 10:14 PM
#68
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Albuquerque/NM
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
....350zDCALB, bashing is not permitted on this forum period, to display this on my thread is low.
You left our shop with a Greddy TT install with custom profec placement.414whp, 380 or so tq and safe a/f.
You had no problems except a personality issue with one of my techs. You granaded your motor by retuning unsafely for power, your loss bubba. I was happy you didn't return the car to us after you blew it up.
I'm not going to bore the members here about your lack of mechanical abilities, I will end this by saying don't hide behind your key board. You know where I'm at, come see me face to face if you have an issue LOL. Stay off my threads, you have nothing useful or informative to add. you can't even change spark plugs......You massage for a living, stay with what you do best and stop being a parrot.....
You left our shop with a Greddy TT install with custom profec placement.414whp, 380 or so tq and safe a/f.
You had no problems except a personality issue with one of my techs. You granaded your motor by retuning unsafely for power, your loss bubba. I was happy you didn't return the car to us after you blew it up.
I'm not going to bore the members here about your lack of mechanical abilities, I will end this by saying don't hide behind your key board. You know where I'm at, come see me face to face if you have an issue LOL. Stay off my threads, you have nothing useful or informative to add. you can't even change spark plugs......You massage for a living, stay with what you do best and stop being a parrot.....
05-12-2005, 02:52 AM
#69
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpeedDreamTuner
No we were only running 6-7 which is apparently how the kit comes, so we're told. We made the adjustment on the washer as well as a few misc... things and made a few more pulls. That was the result. So we really brought it up a pound or two and it liked it.
Who told you the kit came set at 6-7? The way I understood it was it was set at 8.5 out of the box. I am not calling your bluff or anything but thats what I understood the boost was set at. I also am not going to sit here and pretend I know what you are talking about......with that being said, how does changing the washer help give more power? lol (less restriction?) Also what were the other " few misc....things" c'mon hook a brother up!! Well congrats anyways again those are some awsome numbers!!
05-12-2005, 06:17 AM
#70
Sponsor
builtZmotors
builtZmotors
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 2,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpeedDreamTuner
Ok, weren't you the kid at the track that had his car smoking? You said it was anti-freeze and me and a few other people laughed at you? I'm pretty sure that was you, and then you said it was gas because you were running rich. I told you it was oil, and that it was a blown turbo seal. Then I commented on how bad your motor sounded.
Your coming on here like your a guru and your the authority about everything including Z's and your sponsored by 18 different companies and such. I was warned by some of your so called freinds not to argue with you because your just misinformed. That's pretty much true.
I don't even want to begin breaking down your post. I didn't tell you anything about your Greddy kit, I wasn't there, so your 'you guys' comments don't pertain to me. You can quote all the Corky Bell **** in the world. Do you really believe everything written in books?
I'm sorry, but with your lack of knowledge at the track, and as poor of a driver as you were, I don't buy a word you say about you being sponsored, and i'm certainly not going to get into any form of a technical debate with you. Anyone driving around on a tt'd built engine car that has NO TUNING as YOU say, doesn't earn the credit to discuss even basic oil changing.
Your coming on here like your a guru and your the authority about everything including Z's and your sponsored by 18 different companies and such. I was warned by some of your so called freinds not to argue with you because your just misinformed. That's pretty much true.
I don't even want to begin breaking down your post. I didn't tell you anything about your Greddy kit, I wasn't there, so your 'you guys' comments don't pertain to me. You can quote all the Corky Bell **** in the world. Do you really believe everything written in books?
I'm sorry, but with your lack of knowledge at the track, and as poor of a driver as you were, I don't buy a word you say about you being sponsored, and i'm certainly not going to get into any form of a technical debate with you. Anyone driving around on a tt'd built engine car that has NO TUNING as YOU say, doesn't earn the credit to discuss even basic oil changing.
#1
I was the "kid" at the track...you didn't seem much older than me buddy
#2
I did not say it was anti-freeze--i was wishful thinking it was fuel from running rich-which i am...i had to face the facts that it was oil (i was in denial at the time)
#3
You did comment that my motor had "piston slap"--you being someone who obviously knows everything, should know that such a thing as piston slap is only audible during startup on a cold motor, once the heat expansion takes effect, something such a s piston slap would not be noticeable-and you commented on this after i had run my car--so it was obvviously warm--but again- you know what you are talking about
#4
You were correct about the turbo seal (i am very happy that's all that it was)
#5
The sponsorship thing i tried to get a bit of a discount on future parts (kind of pointless now- as i have already bought most of everything--but it will help for the future)- and i made NO mention of sponsorship at the track- not something i would begin to brag about...but not 18 companies..only 3.
#6
Poor driving at the track
3 runs on 19's that weren't gripping and i had no intention of smoking brand new tires- i was more curious of my trap times..which i trapped 119 on runs without lauching
#7
I said "no tuning" ??? hmmm, don't know what you are talking about here...my car is definately tuned....that's just silly
#8
I can discuss oil changing...as intersting as that would be
calm down, you shouldn't get so excited over a technical conversation, these diuscussions are what allow us BOTH to learn more..i don't claim i know everything, but i have learned a bit over the past couple of years
05-12-2005, 06:21 AM
#71
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
8.5 psi is 8.5 psi, but the turbos do have to spin faster to get there. As was mentioned before, this is not at the limits of most turbos so it doesn't really matter.
On another note, if you are running a SC and your psi is determined not by a wastegate but by how fast the SC turns, you WILL need to run a smaller pulley to achieve the same boost. Boulder Nissan does a lot of stillen installs and makes their own custom size pulleys so their clients can run the right amount of boost with the air up there.
They also have had many people running 8psi with the Stillen on stock internals and have not had a problem or a blown engine.
On another note, if you are running a SC and your psi is determined not by a wastegate but by how fast the SC turns, you WILL need to run a smaller pulley to achieve the same boost. Boulder Nissan does a lot of stillen installs and makes their own custom size pulleys so their clients can run the right amount of boost with the air up there.
They also have had many people running 8psi with the Stillen on stock internals and have not had a problem or a blown engine.
05-12-2005, 06:31 AM
#72
Sponsor
builtZmotors
builtZmotors
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 2,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Speed Dreams
....350zDCALB, bashing is not permitted on this forum period, to display this on my thread is low.
You left our shop with a Greddy TT install with custom profec placement.414whp, 380 or so tq and safe a/f.
You had no problems except a personality issue with one of my techs. You granaded your motor by retuning unsafely for power, your loss bubba. I was happy you didn't return the car to us after you blew it up.
I'm not going to bore the members here about your lack of mechanical abilities, I will end this by saying don't hide behind your key board. You know where I'm at, come see me face to face if you have an issue LOL. Stay off my threads, you have nothing useful or informative to add. you can't even change spark plugs......You massage for a living, stay with what you do best and stop being a parrot.....
You left our shop with a Greddy TT install with custom profec placement.414whp, 380 or so tq and safe a/f.
You had no problems except a personality issue with one of my techs. You granaded your motor by retuning unsafely for power, your loss bubba. I was happy you didn't return the car to us after you blew it up.
I'm not going to bore the members here about your lack of mechanical abilities, I will end this by saying don't hide behind your key board. You know where I'm at, come see me face to face if you have an issue LOL. Stay off my threads, you have nothing useful or informative to add. you can't even change spark plugs......You massage for a living, stay with what you do best and stop being a parrot.....
i'll address your response in a similar fashion...
and here we go...
#1
i'm not trying to bash..sorry you took it that way..but while on that subject..why didn't yoy follow the same advice last month when you came on a thread i had started and began to "bash"...i remember goingdeep even asking you to stop so we could get back to the issues at hand
#2
my car did blow up, very true- i have some detailed threads on the matter
#3
happy that i didn't return my car to you after i blew it up...
that's funny, you wrote me several pm's telling me that you could help me out, get me parts, wanted to work on my car...i actually still have these pm's..it's EASY to lie to others..difficult to lie to yourself..come on now
#4
hiding behind my keyboard??
do you think we are in high school and i want to fight you after class?
You are a 50 year old man...i am 24...i have no intention of trying to be a tough guy with you, again, you guys are so quick to get snappy..i enjoy technical discussions, as heated as they may get (sometimes our egos get in the way of the info we are trying to put out there)
My technical abilities, i'm sure are not as advanced as some others here..but i know a bit about FI on a 350z...actually a lot, because i was forced to learn, becasue i invested a liitle bit of time and money into this project and wanted to do it correctly.
#5
I can't change spark plugs??? Hmm, while it is more challengeing on a 350z, i'm happy to say, i can change spark plugs
$6
"I massage for a living".
...no, actually we don't perform anything close to massage therapy...we assess the spine for vertebral subluxations and then use a high velocity, low amplitude thrust, delivered by hand, utilizing the gonstead system of analysis and correction, very different than massage...i'll be happy to answer any questions regaurding chiropractic..that is what i do BEST...cars are simply a hobby of mine
Again, tripp..i wish the best for you and your business...take a deep breath, this is not a personal attack (again, i enjoy technical discussions) take great care..and be careful in your new fast car!
05-12-2005, 07:49 AM
#75
Sponsor
builtZmotors
builtZmotors
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 2,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Speed Dreams
...Go get a life, I'm not waisting my time on this issue anymore and I doubt anyone is interested either.
take care
05-12-2005, 07:49 AM
#76
Sponsor
builtZmotors
builtZmotors
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 2,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jun
yeah, i'm more interested on the videos of the turbo kit, you want drama go watch MTV's Real World 
05-12-2005, 07:50 AM
#77
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jun
yeah, i'm more interested on the videos of the turbo kit, you want drama go watch MTV's Real World
but maybe we can get something else.
05-12-2005, 08:07 AM
#78
Registered User
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Escondido
Posts: 11,373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpeedDreamTuner
I'll take my camera in today, are you guys looking for just some street vids? We took the car off the dyno but maybe we can get something else.
but maybe we can get something else.PS: Tripp I passed along the info in regards to your power steering cooler setup too...
05-12-2005, 08:30 AM
#79
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
Hey Tripp, guys...something curious you mentioned. You said the kit was running 6-7 PSI out of the box...That seemed a little wierd to me. I have no boost controller just running off of the wastegate but I am getting a full 8PSI with minor spikes to 8.5 in 5th. Another member just finished his as well and he is also getting 8 PSI..Maybe your wastegate was a little tweaked? Just thought I'd contribute with some thread related data..
PS: Tripp I passed along the info in regards to your power steering cooler setup too...
PS: Tripp I passed along the info in regards to your power steering cooler setup too...
Either way, with the intake problem it was just hard to tell.
05-12-2005, 09:06 AM
#80
Registered User
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Escondido
Posts: 11,373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpeedDreamTuner
I thought the kit was set to 6-7 PSI personally. I could have swore someone mentioned that. I wasn't too involved on the install, but we had some really minor problems with the car boosting up to 11PSI. After that we lowered it and started dynoing. Then we had to make some more adjustments to the intake. Then we essentially turned it up to 8-8.5 psi and made just shy of 390 RWHP, and just about that in torque.
Either way, with the intake problem it was just hard to tell.
Either way, with the intake problem it was just hard to tell.