This is a funny discussion I know precisely jack squat about the technical aspects of turbochargers....but I know a heck of a lot about business, particularly strategy, product positioning, market segmentation and the like. Hence I am amused at the bantering.

First rule: find your market segment that your product is best positioned against and keep your eye on that ball. In this case it is obvious. The market is much larger for a safe out-of-the box integrated system. A bunch of components is not an engineered system in this regard. APS knows this and is serving primarily this market. This is a way better approach IMO since that market (guys like me) is orders of magnitude larger than a market that wants extreme power. Most Z/G owners never modify their cars in any way. Fewer Z/G owners add clear corners/cosmetic things. Fewer Z/G owners change exhaust, lower, add aftermarket wheels. Even fewer add any FI of any kind. And only a very small number go for built engines and crazy power A 'safe' system appeals to the majority of FI people...just as importantly it appeals to the much larger group of wannabees (like me) who might actually cross over into FI land. It is not necessarily going to appeal to the hardcore, especially those who are already accepting of the additional internals issues.

2nd Rule: Never directly try to serve a different market which is not already yours. You compromise your product positioning. APS has barely begun to bring the core offering to market. The out-of-the box solution needs to gain fairly wide-spread adoption to solidify its position. If I was APS I absolutely would not be encouraging a race to 600 WHP built engines running APS systems in the 'open market'. I absolutely would be doing so behind the scenes in R&D etc. But releasing this into the wild right now would be bad strategy. APS might forego a few sales from a small hardcore minority but would risk the widespread adoption of their core offering.

Rule 3: Extensions of your core offering must not compromise the basic positioning of the core. APS should rightly proceed with product extensions and I would absolutely agree with that being done around 'proprietary systems'. This is absolutely the right way to go. A fully integrated extended system will eventually get them where they want to go to service the extended hardcore market. And they are absolutely right to do so with APS extended solutions and not with matching various components from various manufacturers to get there. The fact that talented tuners could get there...or that Greddy based systems integration projects can get there...is immaterial. Such a strategy would undermine the core offering and would be bad business for APS. They can and should naturally extend through engineered APS add-ons and will do so when those complete systems are available. If you can't wait...by all means choose an alternate solution...as many have noted it can be done. Great, go for it. But it cannot be done by APS without compromising their business model, and that would be stupid for them. This where I part company with several people on this thread. Tuners, talented or not, are not in the same business as APS. When a tuner complains that APS hasn't done this or that for their customer...what they really mean is that they haven't done this or that for the tuners business. They are in different businesses, period, end of story. I appreciate a tuner wants to serve his customer, but is this the same customer as APS' core offering? I think not, at least not yet.

Rule 4: Selling an experience is harder but more sustainable and profitable than selling a product. The APS solution is not a twin turbocharger. It is not 3 of these bolts, 2 of those, and 12 feet of pipe. The APS solution is an experience: the thrill of 400 WHP in a relatively safe manner, day in and day out. Comfort, reliability, speed. All wrapped up with relative peace of mind. This is the cornerstone of their positioning: compromise the cornerstone and the whole building collapses.

Rule 5: Selling on price and getting your product involved in a downward price spiral to the bottom to compete against other products that do not offer your positioning/experience is suicide...and usually means that your product/experience is sub-standard. As competition increases in any segment the strong will survive and protect their pricing and margins. The weak will crater and their products will be discounted as retailers seek to unload unmoving inventory. Following them to the bottom is a bad mistake. How many POS cars have you seen heavily discounted to move them off the lot? I'm sure some dude felt great about getting his Pontiac Tempest for X below invoice...but it was still a POS.

Thus are my thoughts. It seems pretty straightforward from a business point of view. I'd sum it up as: you can't serve everybody...so pick your market and strategy and stick to it.

 

SUD...nice breakdown!

The more I read the discussion between Peter and Phunk the more I thought about what you just wrote. Well put...

Zquicksilver

 

I guess what I'm about to say is going to be off topic here... but I'll say it anyways: Sorry to hear about the blown engine.

 

Yeah nice breakdown SUD but that is assuming APS is doing what you are assuming, there are no garantees to future owners that they are or will develope those add ons.

 

SUD you are a wise man!!

I cannot wait to graduate with my master in business.

I read this whole thread as well.

 

Ahhhh, another aspiring MBA

This sounds like a perfect case study for all the business grad students . . . . APS has definitely studied their marketing (historically an American Co. strong point) & strategy. I cannot fault APS for their position and I do not see their philosophy changing for the hardcore tuners. I only imagine the top 5% investing in whp above 500 and by that point, I start to question the streetability & upkeep of the vehicle. That's not to say I wouldn't want to experience that threshold, but its more around the lines that I simply cannot afford or justify sinking another $10K on top of my $20K in general mods. If I wanted to spend $60K on a vehicle, I'm sorry to say it will not be a Z that I would eventually have to ***** out in a few years when my taste in cars shifts.

G

 

You would need return fuel system, C&CAS wire, a BOV, fuel pump, and a few harnesses for the E-Manage if you plan on tuning it.

 

"FAR SUPERIOR" by how? Heh, there's where I always want justification, it's not the GReddy kit that blows motors, it's the user that does not upgrade the parts necessary, how many 350Z owners with almost every part necessary have blown their motors with a GReddy (not using too much boost for the motor either)? I don't think you'll find any...maybe a few if you do.

I'm not saying the APS TT isn't good, don't get me wrong, it's a good kit, out-of-the-box it's the best TT kit available.

 

Ah, I just went with the P.e kit and called it the day. Another thread that Aps = in
Back on topic, how you doing Dave?

 

can you send it to me too, my email is infinitig35c03@yahoo.com

thanks

 

You can't lump everybody in the same group. I did not choose the greddy tt kit because I "cheaped out" as you say. I went with the Greddy over the APS because there are no authorized unichip tuners in FL. I wanted the APS TT not because of the fuel system and piggy back, but because of the technology in the turbos.

My plans were to build my motor down the road (it's in progress right now) and it would have been a complete waste of money to buy the APS kit if I could not get someone to tune it to use my new motor to its capabilities. If fact my greddy tt kit, AAM fuel return system (which is a real fuel return and can support 600+whp unlike the APS system), boost controller, and fuel pump came out to $8550 which is $1000 more than the APS. My choice was based on tunability and being able to get to my power goals of 500 and 600whp. I can achieve these two goals with two boost settings which the APS system can not do at the current moment. So far I am up to $29K in mods most of it in the motor. I would hardly call that "cheaping out."

I am in no way bashing the APS TT kit as I think it is the best out of the box kit, but just like everyone does not want more than 400whp there some people want more than 400whp. I am one of those "people" and I would have not been able to achieve my power goals with the APS kit unless I drove or shipped my car to the nearest tuner. I just did not feel comfortable having my tuner more than 1000 miles from me. Besides the tuner availabilty in my area now this actuator issue is surfacing....

 

Dirty Dave,

Sorry for posting and not offering my condolences...

I have learned a lot more in the past week about FI because of the (APS ST GB) coming to an end and contemplating whether or not to get in. I clearly see the difference between Greddy and APS. I won't be redundant and post what others are stating as far as pros and cons of each. I personally am not willing to spend the amount of money for a complete system suitable for the HP/TQ gains. It seems as if you go above 350whp your playing on a teeter-totter with all the Z's stock components (I'm talking about longevity here), regardless of turbo manufacturer. Guess that's the price you pay for performance...+1 to all those with deep pockets and a true passion for the Z’s real potential.

Zquicksilver

 

You did not "cheap out". You used the Greddy kit as a starting point and did a lot on top of it to get it functioning properly. Different story from someone just looking for a less expensive turbo kit then thinking that such a venture will be reliable.

I completely agree with you in the fact that having a tuner nearby for whatever your needs are is the MOST IMPORTANT THING BY FAR, in the overall success for these levels of mods on an engine. I'm in the midst of finding a good engine builder in my area and it's not easy. This may be the deciding factor in whether I go with the APS TT or stay NA and just accept what I have.

 

APS engineers have spent the last 9 months on the APS big fuel system, (designed to support up to 1000 HP) APS Gigantor inlet manifold and a number of other new components to release even higher Horsepower from the VQ engine - exciting times ahead.

Thanks

Peter

 

kick ***!

let us know the details on the 1000HP 350z that you must be testing it on, since you wouldnt let the consumer be the test rat.

 

Throw dem dogs a bone and they stop barking at your door for a while! Nice to hear more power is coming, and excellent piece of marketing presence. Can't wait to hear more details.

 

All due respect , the names "Tall boy and Gigantor " may sell in Oz , but the names seem pretty cheesy up here in the States.

Up here we're lured more by short monikers like l SSV , V5, etc.

 

i dont care about names, I care about results. It could be called Sh1tpipe2000 for all i care as long as it makes horsepower and does not break like my "V2"

 

I really don't care either , It's just every time I see "Gigantor" I have to chuckle.

 

I see gigantor, I think of Trogdor .... rarrrrr

It looks lame ... but if it makes power ... who cares