*** JWT BB530's and BB700's side by side ***
11-16-2006, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
You beat me to it, MIA. This turbocharger flows a tad less than the APS TT standard turbo kit.
In regards to a previous post, saying that an engine is running 40psi of boost pressure means nothing to me, without knowing the mass airflow generated by this turbo, or at least the size/type of turbocharger installed. 20psi of boost pressure out of one tiny turbo is going to flow a fraction of the air, generated by a larger frame turbocharger at the same 20psi pressure.
You can push a turbocharger further than its theoretically peak efficiency range, but you generate more heat, and diminishing returns in terms of mass airflow. Mass air is the only factor we should be looking at when judging turbos...not shear pressure. My technicians WRX makes 5psi at 1/8th throttle in a the parking lot, but its generatating virtually no airflow...LOL.
PM, it is my understanding, that the PE Drag car that you guys built ran in the 10's. Then you guys switched to a different turbocharger setup and ran 8's. But wasnt the intake manifold, throttle body, and piping upgraded as well? All of the 8 second drag cars I have seen run some pretty wild setups.
In regards to a previous post, saying that an engine is running 40psi of boost pressure means nothing to me, without knowing the mass airflow generated by this turbo, or at least the size/type of turbocharger installed. 20psi of boost pressure out of one tiny turbo is going to flow a fraction of the air, generated by a larger frame turbocharger at the same 20psi pressure.
You can push a turbocharger further than its theoretically peak efficiency range, but you generate more heat, and diminishing returns in terms of mass airflow. Mass air is the only factor we should be looking at when judging turbos...not shear pressure. My technicians WRX makes 5psi at 1/8th throttle in a the parking lot, but its generatating virtually no airflow...LOL.
PM, it is my understanding, that the PE Drag car that you guys built ran in the 10's. Then you guys switched to a different turbocharger setup and ran 8's. But wasnt the intake manifold, throttle body, and piping upgraded as well? All of the 8 second drag cars I have seen run some pretty wild setups.
I would not want to “push a turbocharger further than its theoretically peak efficiency range.”
Why would I want to do that after spending over and above what it would have cost me to buy another Z just to get a powerhouse that I don’t really need (basic need that is), but I feel I need, as it is obviously more a neurotic need – then cut corners with the turbos. If the both of you were right-on with your assumptions then I would have got the 530s instead and pushed it to perform like a 700.
Really, why would I want to do that, let alone suggest it
I would suggest you reread my comments. And, Sharif, you surprise me, of all people to even think that someone like Vinny Ten, with his experience and knowledge would even consider such a cheap short cut.
Let’s stay on track, shall we!?
G
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Last edited by 350Zzzz; 11-16-2006 at 06:52 AM.
11-16-2006, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
You beat me to it, MIA. This turbocharger flows a tad less than the APS TT standard turbo kit.
In regards to a previous post, saying that an engine is running 40psi of boost pressure means nothing to me, without knowing the mass airflow generated by this turbo, or at least the size/type of turbocharger installed. 20psi of boost pressure out of one tiny turbo is going to flow a fraction of the air, generated by a larger frame turbocharger at the same 20psi pressure.
You can push a turbocharger further than its theoretically peak efficiency range, but you generate more heat, and diminishing returns in terms of mass airflow. Mass air is the only factor we should be looking at when judging turbos...not shear pressure. My technicians WRX makes 5psi at 1/8th throttle in a the parking lot, but its generatating virtually no airflow...LOL.
PM, it is my understanding, that the PE Drag car that you guys built ran in the 10's. Then you guys switched to a different turbocharger setup and ran 8's. But wasnt the intake manifold, throttle body, and piping upgraded as well? All of the 8 second drag cars I have seen run some pretty wild setups.
In regards to a previous post, saying that an engine is running 40psi of boost pressure means nothing to me, without knowing the mass airflow generated by this turbo, or at least the size/type of turbocharger installed. 20psi of boost pressure out of one tiny turbo is going to flow a fraction of the air, generated by a larger frame turbocharger at the same 20psi pressure.
You can push a turbocharger further than its theoretically peak efficiency range, but you generate more heat, and diminishing returns in terms of mass airflow. Mass air is the only factor we should be looking at when judging turbos...not shear pressure. My technicians WRX makes 5psi at 1/8th throttle in a the parking lot, but its generatating virtually no airflow...LOL.
PM, it is my understanding, that the PE Drag car that you guys built ran in the 10's. Then you guys switched to a different turbocharger setup and ran 8's. But wasnt the intake manifold, throttle body, and piping upgraded as well? All of the 8 second drag cars I have seen run some pretty wild setups.
Yea the PE Street car ran 10's... When Vinny came aboard in 6 weeks he got the car in the low 8's... My point originally to Mia is that particular motor is not nearly as radical as some might think... That's it...
Another thing what we have applied to the SS Street car is really not that wild in our book...
11-16-2006, 06:59 AM
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Let us know if they fit with the stock manifold..I know the JWT manifolds are incredibly similar to the APS ones, and APS is now using the same manifolds for both their standard kit and extreme kit, so it must fit with the larger turbos, somehow..
11-16-2006, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
It does appear that you guys have gone off on a tangent, or should I say, on your own personal tangents; as I did not state nor imply pushing the JWT BB700 or any turbos over and above the manufacturers specified peak operating parameters.
I would not want to “push a turbocharger further than its theoretically peak efficiency range.”
Why would I want to do that after spending over and above what it would have cost me to buy another Z just to get a powerhouse that I don’t really need (basic need that is), but I feel I need, as it is obviously more a neurotic need – then cut corners with the turbos. If the both of you were right-on with your assumptions then I would have got the 530s instead and pushed it to perform like a 700.
Really, why would I want to do that, let alone suggest it
I would suggest you reread my comments. And, Sharif, you surprise me, of all people to even think that someone like Vinny Ten, with his experience and knowledge would even consider such a cheap short cut.
Let’s stay on track, shall we!?
G
_____________
I would not want to “push a turbocharger further than its theoretically peak efficiency range.”
Why would I want to do that after spending over and above what it would have cost me to buy another Z just to get a powerhouse that I don’t really need (basic need that is), but I feel I need, as it is obviously more a neurotic need – then cut corners with the turbos. If the both of you were right-on with your assumptions then I would have got the 530s instead and pushed it to perform like a 700.
Really, why would I want to do that, let alone suggest it
I would suggest you reread my comments. And, Sharif, you surprise me, of all people to even think that someone like Vinny Ten, with his experience and knowledge would even consider such a cheap short cut.
Let’s stay on track, shall we!?
G
_____________
11-16-2006, 07:19 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
I don't think there was much to misread. I stated the turbos were good to ~720 HP efficiently based on the compressor maps. You then told me that I must be way off assuming the mass flow rate draws a direct correlation to WHP because Performance Motorsports made some ungodly amount of power above that. (at least that is what you insuated) Since you are trying to tell me how turbos work and what these turbos are good for I'm trying to show you that even Garrett who makes this turbo doesn't believe they should be pushed past 360 HP worth of flow each. Sharif is basically backing up my point and for you to spin it off as him suggessting a shop is taking shortcuts is pretty low. He's basically confirming what ANYONE who works with turbos would tell you based on the compressor maps and a street motor. Perhaps you should re-analyze your own posts.
The PE turbos PM were using before Vinny came along and showed Andy and Garry how to actually do things the right way, were rigged so that the wastegates were shut. That car went 10.3 but was light as fukc, had traction,and had some insane water to air intercooler set up. I think they only were making 600hp when they ran that 10.3. They later upgrade to twin TURBONETICS T-60's and a Turbo 400 tranny, which is what made that car a real contender..
Here is a general rule I go by..Look at the HP a manufacturer claims, and cut it by 10-15% and thats what youll most likely get..
So IMHO the new APS exteme claims 1000hp, subtract 150hp, and thats 850chp, puts you about 700whp, thats right on point..
11-16-2006, 07:25 AM
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And FYI this
Is what I am arguing. When you decide to fly in the face of years of accepted and proven data you should expect that people who have been at this for a while are going to say something. Sharif, I, and Julian aren't new to turbos. Oh and neither is Garrett who happens to agree with us.
Originally Posted by 350zzzzzzz
The CFM output of the turbos is absolutely not a direct correlation to the HP that will be produced by the motor.
I will leave it to the PM team to comment on the numbers that Vinny generated on his stage-1 VQ35DE with 30 psi of boost; and FYI, it was no where close to 700 whp, 720 hp or even 714 hp.
I will leave it to the PM team to comment on the numbers that Vinny generated on his stage-1 VQ35DE with 30 psi of boost; and FYI, it was no where close to 700 whp, 720 hp or even 714 hp.
11-16-2006, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
Let us know if they fit with the stock manifold..I know the JWT manifolds are incredibly similar to the APS ones, and APS is now using the same manifolds for both their standard kit and extreme kit, so it must fit with the larger turbos, somehow..
I wish, they fit the stockers, We had to get new manifolds, they actually come out a touch farther... And right now I think they are made to order, we had to wait a long time for them.
11-16-2006, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
+1, APS claims their standard kit to be good for 800chp. Several members have proven that theory bust...Actually the way they rate them is "airflow", meaning that they theoredically should flow enough airflow to produce 350chp each, on an efficient motor. Some may get more HP out of them, some less.Depends on many factors.
The PE turbos PM were using before Vinny came along and showed Andy and Garry how to actually do things the right way, were rigged so that the wastegates were shut. That car went 10.3 but was light as fukc, had traction,and had some insane water to air intercooler set up. I think they only were making 600hp when they ran that 10.3. They later upgrade to twin TURBONETICS T-60's and a Turbo 400 tranny, which is what made that car a real contender..
Here is a general rule I go by..Look at the HP a manufacturer claims, and cut it by 10-15% and thats what youll most likely get..
So IMHO the new APS exteme claims 1000hp, subtract 150hp, and thats 850chp, puts you about 700whp, thats right on point..
The PE turbos PM were using before Vinny came along and showed Andy and Garry how to actually do things the right way, were rigged so that the wastegates were shut. That car went 10.3 but was light as fukc, had traction,and had some insane water to air intercooler set up. I think they only were making 600hp when they ran that 10.3. They later upgrade to twin TURBONETICS T-60's and a Turbo 400 tranny, which is what made that car a real contender..
Here is a general rule I go by..Look at the HP a manufacturer claims, and cut it by 10-15% and thats what youll most likely get..
So IMHO the new APS exteme claims 1000hp, subtract 150hp, and thats 850chp, puts you about 700whp, thats right on point..
Bottom line Let the Dyno represent the truth... Better yet the track!
11-16-2006, 07:39 AM
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This thread is simply to show the differences of the two turbos that are available through JWT.... I would really like to keep this thread focus on that... As far as what kind of numbers we are expecting out of the BB700's. Time will tell, That's it...
11-16-2006, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 1G-350Z
This thread is simply to show the differences of the two turbos that are available through JWT.... I would really like to keep this thread focus on that... As far as what kind of numbers we are expecting out of the BB700's. Time will tell, That's it...
11-16-2006, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
And FYI this
Is what I am arguing. When you decide to fly in the face of years of accepted and proven data you should expect that people who have been at this for a while are going to say something. Sharif, I, and Julian aren't new to turbos. Oh and neither is Garrett who happens to agree with us.
Is what I am arguing. When you decide to fly in the face of years of accepted and proven data you should expect that people who have been at this for a while are going to say something. Sharif, I, and Julian aren't new to turbos. Oh and neither is Garrett who happens to agree with us.
G
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11-16-2006, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
If your assumption that the BB700(s) are in fact the GT2860R; and considering Garrett's approximations of 250hp/1 L – 360hp/3 L peak then maybe I should suggest to Vinny that we might want to consider Julian’s recommendations of the APS exteme with an average mean of 700rwhp.
G
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G
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Last edited by MIAPLAYA; 11-16-2006 at 08:27 AM.
11-16-2006, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
If your assumption that the BB700(s) are in fact the GT2860R; and considering Garrett's approximations of 250hp/1 L – 360hp/3 L peak then maybe I should suggest to Vinny that we might want to consider Julian’s recommendations of the APS exteme with an average mean of 700rwhp.
G
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G
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Im almost betting 100% that the Extreme kit only produces 700-740WHp similar to the Greddy's with the upgraded turbos..
As for the JWT, I cant really say, but I dont believe any of the HP #'s thate came out of Violent Racing Technology.
11-16-2006, 08:38 AM
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FYI when I spoke to Jim on the phone (many many many times) ironically his turbos are named for their designated horsepower and composition and were originally named based on their efficiency with 300Z's (these are the upgrade options for a 90-96 300Z).
According to Jim Wolf himself "the BB stands for Ball Bearing while the number represents the crank horsepower based on a pair" So....
BB530 = ball bearing turbo good for ~530chp on the 300ZX
BB700 = ball bearing turbo good for ~700chp on the 300ZX
So yes, turbos can be run slightly higher to make more power but if I had to trust someone's opinion it would be the man who sells and names these parts
According to Jim Wolf himself "the BB stands for Ball Bearing while the number represents the crank horsepower based on a pair" So....
BB530 = ball bearing turbo good for ~530chp on the 300ZX
BB700 = ball bearing turbo good for ~700chp on the 300ZX
So yes, turbos can be run slightly higher to make more power but if I had to trust someone's opinion it would be the man who sells and names these parts
11-16-2006, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
Im almost betting 100% that the Extreme kit only produces 700-740WHp similar to the Greddy's with the upgraded turbos..
As for the JWT, I cant really say, but I dont believe any of the HP #'s thate came out of Violent Racing Technology.
As for the JWT, I cant really say, but I dont believe any of the HP #'s thate came out of Violent Racing Technology.
If it is max flow appears to be just over 50 lb/min. So sure 1000 CHP is possible..
11-16-2006, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by NoahzBurnt
FYI when I spoke to Jim on the phone (many many many times) ironically his turbos are named for their designated horsepower and composition and were originally named based on their efficiency with 300Z's (these are the upgrade options for a 90-96 300Z).
According to Jim Wolf himself "the BB stands for Ball Bearing while the number represents the crank horsepower based on a pair" So....
BB530 = ball bearing turbo good for ~530chp on the 300ZX
BB700 = ball bearing turbo good for ~700chp on the 300ZX
So yes, turbos can be run slightly higher to make more power but if I had to trust someone's opinion it would be the man who sells and names these parts
According to Jim Wolf himself "the BB stands for Ball Bearing while the number represents the crank horsepower based on a pair" So....
BB530 = ball bearing turbo good for ~530chp on the 300ZX
BB700 = ball bearing turbo good for ~700chp on the 300ZX
So yes, turbos can be run slightly higher to make more power but if I had to trust someone's opinion it would be the man who sells and names these parts
11-16-2006, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
Bingo.. It all makes sense if you look at the data...
Might I ask at what compression ratio, valves per cylinder, etc., etc that these approximations were based upon?
G
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11-16-2006, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
As for the JWT, I cant really say, but I dont believe any of the HP #'s thate came out of Violent Racing Technology.
PM, Thanks for posting the pics, never thought to do it myself. I am sure you guys will find the JWT BB700 kit to be great, I know we have.
