Originally Posted by mraturbo

What up Rob?

Yes, The APS are larger for sure than the 530s which are GT25s.

APS stock set-up should easily make more power than the JWT 530 set-up straight out of the box simply based upon airflow.

Happy Holidays.

M

Originally Posted by 350Zzzz

PS: I brought the Z home yesterday evening, what a rush driving home from LI. My utmost appreciation goes to Vinny, Damian, Mike, Rodney & Alex.

Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA

i don't know about GT25s...I think the JWT BB530s might be a form of GT25 but if you put the APS regular kit and JWT BB530 next to each other (some already have) the APS units are larger for sure... turbine and compressor.

Originally Posted by 1G-350Z

I would like someone to put a APS regular TT kit turbo side by side with a BB530... The BB530 is essentially a GT25R...

Originally Posted by 350Zzzz

Okeydoke.....Rob....thanks buddy......still waiting for you to deliver, though

It is truly amazing, just with the stock injectors & 9 psi to generate 430 rwhp without UTECH or METECH. Waiting for the Hydra, larger injectors, return fuel line, 3"-4" and 15/20 psi

And most of the experts preached that it would never happen with our stock injectors, as it's already maxed out at 90% duty cycle. Next, we will find more & more engine failures on 18 month old unsleeved blocks, even with forged internals.


G
_______

Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA

Thats what I thought. Thanks Mike. The BB730s appear to be 2860Rs too so that makes sense. If thats the case and the APS units are 2871Rs for the standard kit it only makes sense the Extreme kit must be even larger...

Originally Posted by mraturbo

What up Rob?

Yes, The APS are larger for sure than the 530s which are GT25s.

APS stock set-up should easily make more power than the JWT 530 set-up straight out of the box simply based upon airflow.

Happy Holidays.

M

Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA

i don't know about GT25s...I think the JWT BB530s might be a form of GT25 but if you put the APS regular kit and JWT BB530 next to each other (some already have) the APS units are larger for sure... turbine and compressor.

Originally Posted by Gunmetal-Z

So does that mean the APS isn't a 25/35 Hybrid? Eh I was told that the 25/35 Hybrid and 2871 are the same thing, and that the APS has the same (or was it similar?) Turbine as the BB530, but with a larger housing so they don't crap out.

Peace

Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA

I'm fairly certain 25/35 was the old Garrett naming convetion. They switched a while back. Theres no way JWT and APS have the same turbine section from what I can see. If the 530s are GT2554Rs they have a 53mm 62 trim turbine. The GT2871R has a 53.6 mm turbine 76 trim..

Originally Posted by Gunmetal-Z

0.6 mm difference, but quite a bit with the Housing.

Thank you!!!

Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA

And the trim dude. The trim is quite a change. From a 62 to a 76 trim is a large difference in airflow. Thats like comparing a 40 trim to a 60...

Originally Posted by Gunmetal-Z

I'm a noob with Turbos so could you explain a little bit what trim means? Thanks.

Originally Posted by Turbo Trim discussion

Your inducer is a good place to start to determine a turbo's general power potential for moving air since this is were the air is "introduced' to the turbo system. Larger the inducer the larger amount of air can be swallowed. (again, there’s many other factors like blade design, angle of attack, number of blades, etc.). The larger the inducer the more power it takes to spin it up also (lag) because with each rotation its swallowing up more air so the harder the turbine would have to work. The exducer is were the air that has entered the compressor axially from the inducer gets slung out radially by the exducer blades and gets compressed as it enters the snail or scroll of the compressor housing. The larger the exducer the higher the tips speed for a given turbine shaft speed, so the faster and more compressed the air gets slung out. Generally, the smaller the trim number (smaller trim = bigger difference between the inducer and exducer, larger trim number = closer in size between the inducer and exducer) the more effient the turbo will be at higher pressure ratios. The larger the trim the more air the turbo can move, but will not be as effient at higher pressure ratios. It’s always a trade off. This is why it’s really important to be able to read compressor maps and match the turbo to your engine needs and performance goals. Fortunately for many, most of this leg work and math have been done and all you have to do is ask knowledgeable people on the forum to get the answers.
As I stated above, the larger the inducer the more lag or longer spool-up time will be realized. BUT, with a larger exducer (with same size inducer) an interesting thing happens. In certain circumstances your spool-up time can DECREASE. This is due impart to the tip speed of the larger exducer is faster for the same shaft speed as the smaller exducer comp wheel. The higher tip speed flings the air out with more force. This only works in moderation and in the smaller to mid sized framed turbo compressors (t3 – T4 sized). There is diminishing returns in this phenomenon. So don’t expect to place a 3 inch inducer monster turbo on your ride with an 8 inch exducer and expect it to spool like a stocker. This is practiced quit frequently in hybrid or (HiFlo) stock/upgraded turbos. The turbo shop will “up-grade” the comp wheel by adding a larger inducer for overall more flow potential, then up-size the exducer as well to gain back some responsiveness and decrease spool time that the larger inducer took away from. Think of it this way: it takes X amount of exhaust energy (flow and pressure) to spin up your stock turbo in Y time, but your producing X1 exhaust. So you have great spool-up. Then you stick a larger comp wheel on there, it has the same exducer (major) wheel diameter but it has a larger trim and larger inducer for added kick. It now takes X2 energy to spool it up like your stocker did but your only making X1 exhaust flow before your wastegate opens. You now have more power, but at the expense of less responsiveness, otherwise known as turbo lag. Now if you take and replace that “up-graded” comp wheel with another one with the same inducer dia. But have a larger exducer on it lower your trim (but overall still a larger comp wheel physically then the stocker). Now because the tip speed will be greater for the same shaft speed as the first upgrade, you’ll make boost sooner. Its now only taking X1 exhaust energy to spool it. This is how in moderation you can upgrade and have similar responsiveness to a stocker but with more flow. Some of this same responsiveness will be also do to a most likely up-graded exhaust system also. Again, this doesn’t work well with larger framed turbo’s do to mach differentials (blade speed from the base of the shaft to the tip gets a greater and greater differential the larger the turbo gets. Back sweep in the blade design helps a little. Many other factors such as overall mass {more inertia} and aero factors as well). Turbonetics makes exclusive wheels just to take advantage of this. They have a t3 H trim wheel with a 60 trim configuration. They come out with a “Super 60” wheel (its actually a lower trimed number when you do the math, but its basically the same exact wheel {same inducer size} with a larger exducer) to spool like the smaller 50 trim, but flow like the 60 trim. And because it has the same exact blade design and contours, it fits within a 60 trim housing with no mods.

Originally Posted by Garrett

1. Wheel trim topic coverage

Trim is a common term used when talking about or describing turbochargers. For example, you may hear someone say "I have a GT2871R ' 56 Trim ' turbocharger. What is 'Trim?' Trim is a term to express the relationship between the inducer* and exducer* of both turbine and compressor wheels. More accurately, it is an area ratio.

* The inducer diameter is defined as the diameter where the air enters the wheel, whereas the exducer diameter is defined as the diameter where the air exits the wheel.

Based on aerodynamics and air entry paths, the inducer for a compressor wheel is the smaller diameter. For turbine wheels, the inducer it is the larger diameter (see Figure 1.)
inducer and exducer diameter of compressor and turbine wheels
Figure 1. Illustration of the inducer and exducer diameter of compressor and turbine wheels

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Example #1: GT2871R turbocharger (Garrett part number 743347-2) has a compressor wheel with the below dimensions. What is the trim of the compressor wheel?

Inducer diameter = 53.1mm
Exducer diameter = 71.0mm


Example #2: GT2871R turbocharger (part # 743347-1) has a compressor wheel with an exducer diameter of 71.0mm and a trim of 48. What is the inducer diameter of the compressor wheel?

Exducer diameter = 71.0mm
Trim = 48

The trim of a wheel, whether compressor or turbine, affects performance by shifting the airflow capacity. All other factors held constant, a higher trim wheel will flow more than a smaller trim wheel.

However, it is important to note that very often all other factors are not held constant. So just because a wheel is a larger trim does not necessarily mean that it will flow more.

Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports

G,
Look at the huge success ATI procharger had with their kits using stock injectors If you knew anything about the automotive field, you would know that the method of forcing more fuel pressure through a smaller injector, is a half asssed way of delivering fuel to the motor. It is unstable and unpredictable to say the least.The right way to do it is more fuel pressure and bigger injectors running within the accepted industry 80% duty cycle. I assure you next comment will be "well its good enough for JWT so it MUST be the right way to do it"... Wrong.. JWT does it for 2 reasons.
1) Primarily to pass CARB exemption, by using the smaller injectors reducing the pollutants at idle and part throttle.
2)to undoubtedly cut production costs of their kits, which are by the way the Most expensive on the ,market right now (besides the APS extreme)And lack Injectors,an adequate fuel system and a worthy engine management..

This being said, Ask Vinny if he runs stock injectors with a Rising rate fuel pressure regulator on any of his race cars??I assure you he will look at you as if your crazy.
And as far as the 18 month old unsleeved blocks failing comment, Where in gods green earth do you come up with your information? Just cause one does not have the time or finances to sleeve a block and build a $25,000 motor, does not mean they will not reap the benefits of enjoying a boosted 350Z with a built motor safely for many many years, with a proper tune and sensible level of boost. After all, your mighty JWT kit claims to achieve this very task on a stock motor.
As a matter of fact, can you point to one single built motor failure, in which the sleeve integrity became an issue as of yet? No, you can not..Therefore for you to make such comments openly on a public forum and cause mass hysteria, is at the least, RECKLESS. People might actually think you know what your talking about, and follow your advice.

Making 430 whp with a stock injector is IMHO playing Russian Roulette with your motor. Shoot, I could take a bone stock motor and boost it and run a Kenny Bell booster pump and make 500whp, this does not mean the motor will last and be reliable..

Originally Posted by westpak

Well the ATI procharger was more due to lack of timing retardation no so much due to fuel that was blowing up engines, the Vortech SC also uses stock injectors but uses the SS box to retard timing and they seem to be OK.

And to compare it to what a race team would use is just reaching and not a reasonable comparison.

Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports

So your saying that forcing the stock injectors of about 270cc's to flow more fuel to support 400+whp by increasing fuel pressure is a RELIABLE and safe method of adding fuel?

Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged

Running high fuel pressure for brief periods of time (typical street driving) will probably do no harm. There are countless JWT and Vortech cars doing this, and I havent seen any failures attributed to a malfunctioning injector.

However, extended periods of high fuel pressure can overheat and potentially cause your injectors to stick. The solenoid is designed to pulse with a certain pressure behind it. That said, I think injector manufacturers are being overly cautious, in certifying their injectors to operate at or below 50psi of fuel pressure.

At low boost (6-8psi), I dont see an issue with the JWT fuel system, when used as it was intended. But at higher boost, I would definately be looking at a return fuel system, larger injectors, and a different tuning platform.