I still maintain that position...nothing has changed. A JWT kit at 6-8psi is going to make "about" 330-375whp on our dyno.

 

Had the Vinny Tune Z since 11/21/2006, it is awesome; a work of Art. Driving the Z is a whole new experience, even with stock injectors, 7.5 psi of boost, 435 rwhp and the JWT split-second box. The VQ sounds very solid and it is extremely responsive.

It is clear that Jim Wolf knows much more than most of us here, don't.

As for the sleeves, I still say that the stock sleeves are the weakest link in a built motor with forged internals. So if you can manage it and you're rebuilding your block go with the resleeving. Steel suffers from fatigue with use, and people who end up with blown engines after a rebuilt, end up paying more.

Unless some vendor offers you a blanket warranty that should your engine ever blow at 600 whp and below, with stock sleeves and forged internals that it will replaced with another built replacement motor; I would strongly suggest that you resleeve.

G
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LOL at you..... You act as if you own Stock in Darton Sleeves and have a vested interest in JWT. like I said, JIM WOLF knows his stuff, however he is not the first, and not the last person in the world to tubo charge a car...

 

+1
*Someone please post the modified signature image!

 

Same here, Greddy TT kit yesterday at 5 psi 331 DD whp. So I would estimate, that your estimate is right on point.However the 375 whp on our dyno would be a tad over 400 on a DJ. This is where you stated several times in the past, that you "need" a return fuel system, at the 400 mark. I agree with this also.

 

And, I agree with you J, JW not being the last person to turbo charge a car.

The point that you are missing is that he's done it with stock injectors @ 435 rwhp, without a return fuel line, when most of us thought it impossible; me included. BTW, it was on a mustang dyno, as you already know; PM dynoed some of MRC's cars just last year on the same dyno.

G
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^^^
While you have a valid point that does not add validity to your statement about him knowing more than most. You must understand that what he does know is how to make something work good without adding cost by using what he already has i.e. the stock injectors and that this by NO MEANS puts him above most knowledge wise about our cars. At least based on that achievement alone.

Also understand that just because he can does not mean he should. I am not trying to say that it is not safe but rather that it is not optimal to run without a fuel return system above 400whp. I also think that the sleeves are not the weakest link. I think that the stock headgasket design could be though. The HKS head gasket adds quite a bit of ridgidity to the top end of the block. Mate that with 1/2" studs and you have a very solid setup for up to about 600whp.

There are other problems with sleeves. The main one is that if you have someone do them who does not know what they are doing you could very well have a blown motor in the end anyways when a sleeve sinks or something else. Heat is another issue since you will not have as much coolant flow near the cylinders. There are pros and cons to both. Sleeves are a great way to go but I wouldn't jump to conclusions about them and possibly mislead those who have not been on the forums long.

 

Anything is "possible". I made 425whp in the past without return fuel systems but I would never do it on a customer's car. 500whp+ is possible on a stock block, but not advisable. There are lots of things that can be done, but its doesnt mean its the safest or most reliable method of doing something.

Heck, I think one shop around here made 550whp on a stock block with C16. I imagine anyone could that as well...for a couple pulls on a dyno.

Jim Wolf himself, knows the limits of his design, and does not suggest pushing it too far beyond that without further upgrades.

 

Oh noez, now I have to sleeve too?!?!? I am never going FI!!!!



If I still had any mod plans for my Z, I'd call "B.S. sales pitch" on this statement, but since I am done with the Z project, I won't...

 

This stock Z is still running, JWT TT Dyno 6.8 psi / 418 whp!!!

Absolute Sharif, for higher whp, the stock ECU will be swapped out for a complete stand-alone EMS, towards the end of next month, December; adding 3" exhaust, return fuel line and the size of the injectors would be dependent on how much whp I want.

And if you believe that the stock sleeves will take you safely to 600whp with forged internals, then by all means, ride on, and I wish you all the best. Time will be the judge.

The first time that I went FI was back in August 2003, and I learnt and seen a lot from my own experience and that of others; yes you too J.

G
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I have been running my stock sleeves on a built bottom end for 2 years now at power levels ranging from 450-600whp at 18psi of boost..Stock head gasket and standard ARP fasteners.No issues what so ever with head lift,overheating,or sleeve cracking.And G, You know for a fact my car has over 100 passes on the 1/4 mile and to date 230 full passes on my Dyno and countless hours of load based and road tunning..I abuse the crap out of my car, and its still running like new.

 

^^^
And there you have it. Proof through testing is more important than speculation.

 

I agree with MRC. Stock sleeves are probably a lot stronger than most people think. We have plenty of cars from the stable that are running 525-550whp (on our low reading dyno) on stock sleeves.

That said, I think we need more people to push 650-750whp before I will feel 100% comfortable without sleeving the 600whp+ blocks.

 

That's great that MRC & Forged Internals do not have a single customer from the stable that blew his/her engine with forged internals, in a block with stock sleeves.

As, even if I was that one, single customer that had a blown engine, I would be extremely upset, my money, my engine, my car and my time.

G
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I have nothing against sleeving the black, but we have done severall 550-700+ whp built motors, all running fine, and all are unsleeved.

 

Gerald,
Seriously, how can you even make that statement. Your car took a year and a half to do the motor build and probably cost twice what anyone else would pay. Your car, your engine, your money, your time. Ha!

 

Again, sleeving does take car of one problem but it does bring other problems or possible problems into the occassion.

To be honest, if you have the money to set your car up for 600+whp you most likely have enough money to sleeve the block. Still don't think it is necessary with the right parts.

I would never consider using stock head gaskets (not saying they can't handle it as it has been proven they can) and head bolts in combination to reach over 550whp. I think those two areas are great areas to consider when pushing above even 500whp and are two great areas to increase reliability and safety for a fraction of the cost of sleeving.

 

David

We don't slap motors together Vinny has learned alot through racing the VQ. G's car may have been out of commision for 16 months or so. It only took a couple of days to put together once it was back from our machine shop. We also had a delay waiting for the 700 series manifolds. That's it... As far as money spent that's all relative. When Vinny puts out the motor programs, you might be surprised.

 

What is your point, and what is its relevance to the discussion

G
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It is amusing to watch how something that made so much sense in the shop, makes no sense when other professionals (namely Sharif and MRC) add their input.