*** JWT BB530's and BB700's side by side ***
11-24-2006, 01:04 PM
#121
Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
So what happened to your old opinion that cars running over 400whp need a complete return fuel system??
11-28-2006, 09:25 AM
#122
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Had the Vinny Tune Z since 11/21/2006, it is awesome; a work of Art. Driving the Z is a whole new experience, even with stock injectors, 7.5 psi of boost, 435 rwhp and the JWT split-second box. The VQ sounds very solid and it is extremely responsive.
It is clear that Jim Wolf knows much more than most of us here, don't.
As for the sleeves, I still say that the stock sleeves are the weakest link in a built motor with forged internals. So if you can manage it and you're rebuilding your block go with the resleeving. Steel suffers from fatigue with use, and people who end up with blown engines after a rebuilt, end up paying more.
Unless some vendor offers you a blanket warranty that should your engine ever blow at 600 whp and below, with stock sleeves and forged internals that it will replaced with another built replacement motor; I would strongly suggest that you resleeve.
G
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It is clear that Jim Wolf knows much more than most of us here, don't.
As for the sleeves, I still say that the stock sleeves are the weakest link in a built motor with forged internals. So if you can manage it and you're rebuilding your block go with the resleeving. Steel suffers from fatigue with use, and people who end up with blown engines after a rebuilt, end up paying more.
Unless some vendor offers you a blanket warranty that should your engine ever blow at 600 whp and below, with stock sleeves and forged internals that it will replaced with another built replacement motor; I would strongly suggest that you resleeve.
G
_______
11-28-2006, 09:29 AM
#123
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
Had the Vinny Tune Z since 11/21/2006, it is awesome; a work of Art. Driving the Z is a whole new experience, even with stock injectors, 7.5 psi of boost, 435 rwhp and the JWT split-second box. The VQ sounds very solid and it is extremely responsive.
It is clear that Jim Wolf knows much more than most of us here, don't.
As for the sleeves, I still say that the stock sleeves are the weakest link in a built motor with forged internals. So if you can manage it and you're rebuilding your block go with the resleeving. Steel suffers from fatigue with use, and people who end up with blown engines after a rebuilt, end up paying more.
Unless some vendor offers you a blanket warranty that should your engine ever blow at 600 whp and below, with stock sleeves and forged internals that it will replaced with another built replacement motor; I would strongly suggest that you resleeve.
G
_______
It is clear that Jim Wolf knows much more than most of us here, don't.
As for the sleeves, I still say that the stock sleeves are the weakest link in a built motor with forged internals. So if you can manage it and you're rebuilding your block go with the resleeving. Steel suffers from fatigue with use, and people who end up with blown engines after a rebuilt, end up paying more.
Unless some vendor offers you a blanket warranty that should your engine ever blow at 600 whp and below, with stock sleeves and forged internals that it will replaced with another built replacement motor; I would strongly suggest that you resleeve.
G
_______
LOL at you.....
You act as if you own Stock in Darton Sleeves and have a vested interest in JWT. like I said, JIM WOLF knows his stuff, however he is not the first, and not the last person in the world to tubo charge a car...
Last edited by Julian@MRC; 11-28-2006 at 09:31 AM.
11-28-2006, 09:33 AM
#125
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
I still maintain that position...nothing has changed. A JWT kit at 6-8psi is going to make "about" 330-375whp on our dyno.
11-28-2006, 11:24 AM
#126
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
LOL at you..... You act as if you own Stock in Darton Sleeves and have a vested interest in JWT. like I said, JIM WOLF knows his stuff, however he is not the first, and not the last person in the world to tubo charge a car...
You act as if you own Stock in Darton Sleeves and have a vested interest in JWT. like I said, JIM WOLF knows his stuff, however he is not the first, and not the last person in the world to tubo charge a car...The point that you are missing is that he's done it with stock injectors @ 435 rwhp, without a return fuel line, when most of us thought it impossible; me included. BTW, it was on a mustang dyno, as you already know; PM dynoed some of MRC's cars just last year on the same dyno.
G
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11-28-2006, 11:53 AM
#127
^^^
While you have a valid point that does not add validity to your statement about him knowing more than most. You must understand that what he does know is how to make something work good without adding cost by using what he already has i.e. the stock injectors and that this by NO MEANS puts him above most knowledge wise about our cars. At least based on that achievement alone.
Also understand that just because he can does not mean he should. I am not trying to say that it is not safe but rather that it is not optimal to run without a fuel return system above 400whp. I also think that the sleeves are not the weakest link. I think that the stock headgasket design could be though. The HKS head gasket adds quite a bit of ridgidity to the top end of the block. Mate that with 1/2" studs and you have a very solid setup for up to about 600whp.
There are other problems with sleeves. The main one is that if you have someone do them who does not know what they are doing you could very well have a blown motor in the end anyways when a sleeve sinks or something else. Heat is another issue since you will not have as much coolant flow near the cylinders. There are pros and cons to both. Sleeves are a great way to go but I wouldn't jump to conclusions about them and possibly mislead those who have not been on the forums long.
While you have a valid point that does not add validity to your statement about him knowing more than most. You must understand that what he does know is how to make something work good without adding cost by using what he already has i.e. the stock injectors and that this by NO MEANS puts him above most knowledge wise about our cars. At least based on that achievement alone.
Also understand that just because he can does not mean he should. I am not trying to say that it is not safe but rather that it is not optimal to run without a fuel return system above 400whp. I also think that the sleeves are not the weakest link. I think that the stock headgasket design could be though. The HKS head gasket adds quite a bit of ridgidity to the top end of the block. Mate that with 1/2" studs and you have a very solid setup for up to about 600whp.
There are other problems with sleeves. The main one is that if you have someone do them who does not know what they are doing you could very well have a blown motor in the end anyways when a sleeve sinks or something else. Heat is another issue since you will not have as much coolant flow near the cylinders. There are pros and cons to both. Sleeves are a great way to go but I wouldn't jump to conclusions about them and possibly mislead those who have not been on the forums long.
11-28-2006, 01:05 PM
#128
Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
And, I agree with you J, JW not being the last person to turbo charge a car.
The point that you are missing is that he's done it with stock injectors @ 435 rwhp, without a return fuel line, when most of us thought it impossible; me included. BTW, it was on a mustang dyno, as you already know; PM dynoed some of MRC's cars just last year on the same dyno.
G
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The point that you are missing is that he's done it with stock injectors @ 435 rwhp, without a return fuel line, when most of us thought it impossible; me included. BTW, it was on a mustang dyno, as you already know; PM dynoed some of MRC's cars just last year on the same dyno.
G
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Heck, I think one shop around here made 550whp on a stock block with C16. I imagine anyone could that as well...for a couple pulls on a dyno.
Jim Wolf himself, knows the limits of his design, and does not suggest pushing it too far beyond that without further upgrades.
11-28-2006, 02:37 PM
#129
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
And most of the experts preached that it would never happen with our stock injectors, as it's already maxed out at 90% duty cycle. Next, we will find more & more engine failures on 18 month old unsleeved blocks, even with forged internals.
If I still had any mod plans for my Z, I'd call "B.S. sales pitch" on this statement, but since I am done with the Z project, I won't...
Last edited by Oleg; 11-28-2006 at 02:47 PM.
11-28-2006, 04:06 PM
#130
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This stock Z is still running, JWT TT Dyno 6.8 psi / 418 whp!!!
Absolute Sharif, for higher whp, the stock ECU will be swapped out for a complete stand-alone EMS, towards the end of next month, December; adding 3" exhaust, return fuel line and the size of the injectors would be dependent on how much whp I want.
And if you believe that the stock sleeves will take you safely to 600whp with forged internals, then by all means, ride on, and I wish you all the best. Time will be the judge.
The first time that I went FI was back in August 2003, and I learnt and seen a lot from my own experience and that of others; yes you too J.
G
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Absolute Sharif, for higher whp, the stock ECU will be swapped out for a complete stand-alone EMS, towards the end of next month, December; adding 3" exhaust, return fuel line and the size of the injectors would be dependent on how much whp I want.
And if you believe that the stock sleeves will take you safely to 600whp with forged internals, then by all means, ride on, and I wish you all the best. Time will be the judge.
The first time that I went FI was back in August 2003, and I learnt and seen a lot from my own experience and that of others; yes you too J.
G
_______
11-28-2006, 04:20 PM
#131
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
This stock Z is still running, JWT TT Dyno 6.8 psi / 418 whp!!!
And if you believe that the stock sleeves will take you safely to 600whp with forged internals, then by all means, ride on, and I wish you all the best. Time will be the judge.
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And if you believe that the stock sleeves will take you safely to 600whp with forged internals, then by all means, ride on, and I wish you all the best. Time will be the judge.
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11-29-2006, 03:40 PM
#133
I agree with MRC. Stock sleeves are probably a lot stronger than most people think. We have plenty of cars from the stable that are running 525-550whp (on our low reading dyno) on stock sleeves.
That said, I think we need more people to push 650-750whp before I will feel 100% comfortable without sleeving the 600whp+ blocks.
That said, I think we need more people to push 650-750whp before I will feel 100% comfortable without sleeving the 600whp+ blocks.
11-29-2006, 07:41 PM
#134
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That's great that MRC & Forged Internals do not have a single customer from the stable that blew his/her engine with forged internals, in a block with stock sleeves.
As, even if I was that one, single customer that had a blown engine, I would be extremely upset, my money, my engine, my car and my time.
G
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As, even if I was that one, single customer that had a blown engine, I would be extremely upset, my money, my engine, my car and my time.
G
_______
Last edited by 350Zzzz; 11-30-2006 at 01:41 PM.
11-30-2006, 05:47 AM
#136
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
That's great that MRC & Forged Internals do not have a single customer from the stable that blew his/her engine with forged internals, in a block with stock sleeves.
As, even if I was that one, single customer that had a blown engine, I would be extremely upset, my money, my engine, my car and my time.
G
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As, even if I was that one, single customer that had a blown engine, I would be extremely upset, my money, my engine, my car and my time.
G
_______
Gerald,
Seriously, how can you even make that statement. Your car took a year and a half to do the motor build and probably cost twice what anyone else would pay.
Your car, your engine, your money, your time. Ha! 
11-30-2006, 09:23 AM
#137
Again, sleeving does take car of one problem but it does bring other problems or possible problems into the occassion.
To be honest, if you have the money to set your car up for 600+whp you most likely have enough money to sleeve the block. Still don't think it is necessary with the right parts.
I would never consider using stock head gaskets (not saying they can't handle it as it has been proven they can) and head bolts in combination to reach over 550whp. I think those two areas are great areas to consider when pushing above even 500whp and are two great areas to increase reliability and safety for a fraction of the cost of sleeving.
To be honest, if you have the money to set your car up for 600+whp you most likely have enough money to sleeve the block. Still don't think it is necessary with the right parts.
I would never consider using stock head gaskets (not saying they can't handle it as it has been proven they can) and head bolts in combination to reach over 550whp. I think those two areas are great areas to consider when pushing above even 500whp and are two great areas to increase reliability and safety for a fraction of the cost of sleeving.
11-30-2006, 09:36 AM
#138
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Originally Posted by 35ounces
Gerald,
Seriously, how can you even make that statement. Your car took a year and a half to do the motor build and probably cost twice what anyone else would pay. Your car, your engine, your money, your time. Ha!
Seriously, how can you even make that statement. Your car took a year and a half to do the motor build and probably cost twice what anyone else would pay.
Your car, your engine, your money, your time. Ha! We don't slap motors together Vinny has learned alot through racing the VQ. G's car may have been out of commision for 16 months or so. It only took a couple of days to put together once it was back from our machine shop.
We also had a delay waiting for the 700 series manifolds. That's it...
As far as money spent that's all relative. When Vinny puts out the motor programs, you might be surprised.
11-30-2006, 04:58 PM
#139
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Originally Posted by 35ounces
Gerald,
Seriously, how can you even make that statement. Your car took a year and a half to do the motor build and probably cost twice what anyone else would pay. Your car, your engine, your money, your time. Ha!
Seriously, how can you even make that statement. Your car took a year and a half to do the motor build and probably cost twice what anyone else would pay.
Your car, your engine, your money, your time. Ha! G
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11-30-2006, 05:00 PM
#140
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
What is your point, and what is its relevance to the discussion
Last edited by Oleg; 11-30-2006 at 05:17 PM.