sugarspunZ

iTrader: (2)

wow talk about burning tires.

WA2GOOD

iTrader: (24)

Not sure. THAT IS NOT MY DYNO SHEET HE/YOU ARE REFERING TOO.

WA2GOOD

iTrader: (24)

No personall attack here, at all. I was refer to "YOU" as anyone who can't read it properly

Philthy

iTrader: (3)

You posted it and it says Jim Wolf Technology, INC. righ to the dyno graph...

440wtq at 2000rpms... please do explain... I must not be well educated because I don't understand how this could be possible and why the TQ & HP cross at 4300rpms on one run and 2000rpms on the other...

Thanks for helping me with this -

EM-EFER

iTrader: (6)

I don't think VRT has to prove anything.. But it would be nice to go to Sam at GTM or BSP to compare.

A lot of the dyno's are skewed data and inconsistent. Everything could be put to rest in one dyno from a quality well known shop that has nothing vested in your guys.

dutchboy

iTrader: (1)

Diesel power baby.

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Part of the confusion, is that the dyno operator is not setting the scales to match on both sides of the graph. The HP scale starts at 304.5 and the trq scale starts at 121.3 This causes the trq/hp graphs to cross at the wrong spot.

Matching these two scales would make the charts look a LOT better, and not as confusing.

After using a DynoPak for the first time, I now understand why the dynopaks show a very large (unrealistic) trq buildup. The DynoPak will settle the load for several seconds before releasing the ramp. As a result, you will get a very large pressure spike (just like brake boosting), prior to releasing the dyno. Bingo.....lots of low end trq. If you ran this same car on a DynoJet the trq buildup would be much more gradual....but peak numbers would be about the same.

Julian@MRC

iTrader: (28)

I agree here Sharif, it would look better.
However, how do they explain how they manage to increse TQ rating from 150 to 500+ from 1800 to 3700?That is over a 350% increase in TQ in only 1900 RPMs.Last time I seen a car capable of that, John Force was driving it..lol. Then the TQ hits peak at 3700-4100 rpms in all their dynos, where every single other shop in the world has not been able to alter the PEAK TQ characteristics of the VQ motor thus far. Are they letting Chris Angel tune their cars? Then in another 3000 RPMs they LOOSE over 350% TQ. and go from making 500-600TQ to 150-200 IMHO and I call it like I see it, VRT's Dyno's are full of chit, and are nothing more than a marketing ploy to make them look like almighty tuners, when in fact they are insulting the overall intelligence of the comunity and 350Z shops all over the world.
I honestly can not stand this FAIRYTALE any longer..
I call 100% BS.

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

Sharif is absolutely correct. The ramp up time on the Dynapack is being modified to produce extremely high load on the hubs as soon as the run begins. I am not knocking VRT here. I have repeatedly told Mike and Scott they do great work and give them props for running their cars at the track as much as they do and running a returnless fuel system to do it. What I am calling into question is the way in which these dynos portray the power delivery. As Philthy mentioned the one curve that is valid on that attached dyno crosses well before the 5252 it should be crossing at. The HP and TQ scale are WAY off which also leads to misinterpetation. But what really caught my eye was the amount of boost these cars are building during the run. I was at JWT when they dyno'd Mike Bonnanis car. I watched the attached boost gauge hit 20 PSI the instant the run began. This was at 2000-2200 rpms as indicated on the tach. I don't care what kind of magic dust you put into the car those turbos aren't going to make peak boost the minute the rollers start turning unless the ramp up time is set so that the rollers are overloading the car. he was still running the Injen exhaust and I know for a fact it was hurting boost threshold due to back pressure. Now I am not saying that the run I witnesses was the dyno that was posted. Only Scott and Mike could answer that. And I know that there are reasons to ramp the dyno up like that. But all of those reasons are for tuning. You over load the car to simulate an extremely high boost situation at very low RPMs to make sure the cars tune is capable of dealing with that should it ever occur. However the ramp up rate I saw that dyno set to would only be replicated in the real world if you were driving at a 75 degree incline at full throttle in 2nd gear...In the end as Sharif said and USN dynos proved the peak numbers will likely be very close if not the same. So its not that the cars don't make the power they say they do. More so its that the cars to produce the power in the manner that is shown. I was at Stillen the day Mike dyno'd his G and the tires were spinning the whole time on the dyno in 5th. But on the one semi clean run they had the torque was MUCH more realistic from what I could see ont he flat panel they had set up. In the end its up to the customer to decide what they want to do and VRTs track presence at Willow and other tracks is not unnoticed. The same VRT cars are there day in and dayout and consistently run fast times there without mechanical failure and that is to be commended. I just personally think that the ramp rate used for the "peak power" run needs to be a bit more realistic.

WA2GOOD

iTrader: (24)

^^^^^^^^^

Thanks for the fair post Rob. Yes the Only time Mike Bonanni's car was ever on JWT's dyno was this time, and this dyno chart was the results. You where there to witness it. The semi-sucessful Stillen dyno pull was done in 6th gear (cause it just smoked the tires in 5th), maybe that explains the different TQ curve.
I understand what you are saying, and do see that your post has nothing to do with calling us (VRT) or our cars out, your beef seems to be with the way that Jim Wolf runs his dyno, correct? That is something you might wanna take up with JWT

Well, wheather people like it or not..........

A) Any way you put it, these ARE the peak power and tq. numbers that we are getting from these cars (no magic), no matter what dyno we use

B) Myself, or Mike, Mark, etc. are not the dyno operators. Jim Wolf and Clark Steppler from JWT are, Not sure who is brazen enough to question their dyno tuning techniques. They dyno tune the same way that they have always done it, for decades.

C) Yes, we do beat the living crap out of these cars for extended periods of time, track after track, with no failures or issues....for years now......Still without a fuel return system

WA2GOOD

iTrader: (24)

Thanks again for clearing that up Sharif

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

I'm not beefing with the JWT or the way they tune their cars. They obviously know how to tune a car. They also know how to use their dyno very well. My beef is that when JWT is dyno tuning a car the final dyno sheet may not necesarily be reflective of the final torque. I guess what I'm saying is that JWT doesn't do Peak power runs. The dyno sheet he gives is not the traditional peak power "shootout" style dyno. At least with the settings he's using. The dyno sheet he produced for Mike's car was a tuning session run...

WA2GOOD

iTrader: (24)

I couldn't agree more. JWT does not care about doing "peak" power and torque runs, it is even hard to get them to even make a high power pull.
But just imagine what the numbers could be if a high peak number WAS his goal !!!
Yep, Jim and Clark are always preeching that the dynomometer is a tuning tool, it's not a toy, or for bragging rights. But these are the dyno sheets that are produced when the cars we build are dynoed. They are REAL numbers, and these cars made them. So when someone calls out one of our cars or its power potientiel, this is the results that the car made, thus this is the chart that I will show them.

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

Like I said I'm not questioning the numbers or calling yet. Just mentioning that JWT isn't producing these sheets as the standard shootout style sheets. So they don't reflect that in the curves..

Philthy

iTrader: (3)

If you're so sure of yourself, take your car down to GT Motorsports and have Sam Dyno your car. I will cover the dyno cost...

I'm with MRC on this one... Sharif can be politically correct if he wants - but I call it like I see it.

Julian@MRC

iTrader: (28)

Not debating you, but just an FYI, I can make a 91 Honda Civic with 300,000 miles spin the tires in reverse on the dyno if I dont strap it down correctly.
I have problems getting a clean pass on my car on the DD and it has one of the easiest stapping systems available..Even worse with softer compound tires, and once the tires break loose once, your done..You need to let them cool off for at least 20-30 mins before attempting another pull..

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

Thats true but he had one of only two cars that lost traction on the dyno that day. The other one was making in excess of 500 as well I believe.

Julian@MRC

iTrader: (28)

I agree, Sharif is being PC on this, as he does sell JWT also and needs to represent himself professionally ..I personally can give a flying Fukc less, and call it like I see it also. Im not by any means knocking JWT, their tunning, their products ect ectI think JWT makes a great product and as always has pioneered the Nissan platforms...What I am questioning is VRT's "representation" of the HP and TQ numbers on a select few of their Dyno's, not all..I have seen many that are right on point and completely feasable. I just think there is alot being left out of the equasion here.

Julian@MRC

iTrader: (28)

Like I have said before, Im not debating all of VRT's cars are well over 500whp, but no where near 700+ and 800TQ. Im willing to bet, 575-590 max on a DJ done legit.

GTM

iTrader: (12)

Unfortunately BSP is out of business. Just and FYI

-George
GT Motorsports