Engine is Toast !!!! Feel my Pain!!
06-06-2007, 05:53 AM
#81
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Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
... it was either on sharifs dyno or on the road after when larry was driving. so that would be the only debate. not possible that it happened in the 20 mins of it running at 2500 rpms during cam initial break in here. ..
thats what it seems to be so far
06-06-2007, 05:55 AM
#82
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Originally Posted by roncfpz
+1.....well stated Sam. This thread is just another example of what is wrong with this forum. 
Jet, good luck with everything.
Jet, good luck with everything.
06-06-2007, 05:59 AM
#83
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Damn... I'd be pissed, but at who and why is still up for debate. At this point, I'll make one recommendation - let nobody touch anything related to the engine except for the shop you are going to have do the repair work.
Too many chefs in the kitchen ruin the soup, even if the intentions are genuine from the beginning...
It's been stated, and even though there's a heated debate between the shops, FP and PF are two of the most respected shops on this board. Between the two, you're in good hands. I think the key is getting everyone on the same sheet. But as stated above, pick ONE of them to take the lead from here.
Too many chefs in the kitchen ruin the soup, even if the intentions are genuine from the beginning...
It's been stated, and even though there's a heated debate between the shops, FP and PF are two of the most respected shops on this board. Between the two, you're in good hands. I think the key is getting everyone on the same sheet. But as stated above, pick ONE of them to take the lead from here.
06-06-2007, 05:59 AM
#84
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Originally Posted by taurran
I'm not sure why you say that? All the well-wishings in the world won't help the issue get resolved, helping to find the root cause of a problem and diagnose what the basic issue with his setup will.
i am all for aguing as long as its in topic and with mechanical facts rather than cheap shots, all to solve/find what the problem is here because as taurran said this issue might also be connected with another issue jet had with his tn kit turbo.
a lot of the peeps saying that "this is wrong to say this that" do it in other thread but are on the defensive suporting their builder( and thats weak) and thats why i say any arguing has to be done with facts, pics showing the piston, having all the tests sam suggested, looking at the utec maps, checking everything.....
Nobody is perfect there could have been an error here by someone.
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 06-06-2007 at 06:02 AM.
06-06-2007, 06:01 AM
#85
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
+1
i am all for aguing as long as its in topic and with mechanical facts rather than cheap shots, all to solve/find what the problem is here because as taurran said this issue might also be connected with another issue jet had with his tn kit turbo.
i am all for aguing as long as its in topic and with mechanical facts rather than cheap shots, all to solve/find what the problem is here because as taurran said this issue might also be connected with another issue jet had with his tn kit turbo.
06-06-2007, 06:03 AM
#86
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
these images are jets old TN tune on a BUILT motor, parameters set up from 1 to 15 psi. if we want to talk crap and say who has a lot to learn, well this timing map tells the truth for sure...
now wonder you couldnt make any power over 5500, you left the timing the same values.
also, why we are trash talking, i heard through the grapevine sharif that you blew your motor, is that the reason you have a different one in there and only running 8 psi?? at least i make sure i dont hide stuff when i do it...
now wonder you couldnt make any power over 5500, you left the timing the same values.
also, why we are trash talking, i heard through the grapevine sharif that you blew your motor, is that the reason you have a different one in there and only running 8 psi?? at least i make sure i dont hide stuff when i do it...
And once again, since you are attempting to drag me through the mud, one of your customer's came to me after ZDAYZ for a touch up tune. I am witholding his name out of respect for his privacy. So here is your "aggressive" tune. I didnt realize that aggressive meant running low to sub 10's in AF ratio. After we were done tuning, we netted 25whp more, and much better power curve. I charged him 1 hour dyno time, even though we spent more time on his car...yeah...I am doing this for the money...LOL. Oh, and you also decided to cap his valve cover vent with the a hose and breather filter...which was fine. But then you left the HOLE IN THE BACK OF HIS AIRFILTER OPEN, so his engine was injesting dirty air. Glad he didnt suck up a small rock or something. Oh, and you had installed that retune fuel system that you claim vehemently is NOT NEEDED...LOL.
As I mentioned in my initial post, the timing values were kept low for a reason. KNOCK! On this setup, this was the max I felt safe running. When I tuned a built engine project, I spend all day on the day with the car...sometimes more than a day.
Lastly Jeremy, I have nothing to hide. I am not perfect, and neither is anyone. But we stand behind our work, and if a mistake is ever made, we fix it. I havent recieved one phone call from you or jet about this matter. Instead, you decide to spin this thing, to attempt to make me look bad. Nice try...but it's not going to work. In the end, you make yourself look self-serving and foolish, just like you did at ZDAYZ in front of dozens of people. And hmmm....where was your car, and all your other fast drag cars?? You are a joke.
Oh, lastly (really), my car is been running strong for 24K miles with the same engine I had when I was back at CP Racing prior to moving to ATL. It has been beaten to death. My car is tuned from 8psi to 16psi on pump gas. It's the same 3.8L Darton wtih GTM heads. I raced Alberto at low AND high boost at ZDAYZ (3 weeks ago), up to about 145mph. I guess I kept up with Alberto with just 8psi...right?
As we all know, its impossible to keep a secret, nor should it be kept a secret. If my engine lets go after 25K miles, after the abuse it has been through, it will not surprise me. But for now, its running great! I drive it every single day, to and front work (you saw it when you picked up Taurran's car), track days 1-2 times a month, and plenty of cruising around the town. That said, everything breaks, and the harder you drive it, the sooner it will break. But until then, I am enjoying it.
Vendors, and customers that know my history, realize I rarely if ever criticise anyone. But I will not stand by and let you attempt to slander our company name and reputation, that we have worked very hard over the past 3 years to create.
Now I have to go back to working....bye.
Last edited by Sharif@Forged; 06-06-2007 at 06:17 AM.
06-06-2007, 06:17 AM
#89
first of all, that customer, who you had "retuned" had me put back on the factory cats and change the exhaust after i installed the vortech. i road tested it and saw it was running richer as i expected and told him to come in for a retune to lean it out. then Z days happened and he decided to stop by your shop on the way back....
EDITED for respectfulness. everyone will see one day that you are a nestle quick marketing rep and nothing more, you have everyone with issues hide them and nothing becomes public. i am done with this...
EDITED for respectfulness. everyone will see one day that you are a nestle quick marketing rep and nothing more, you have everyone with issues hide them and nothing becomes public. i am done with this...
Last edited by Audible Mayhem; 06-06-2007 at 06:24 AM.
06-06-2007, 06:24 AM
#90
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
In the end, you make yourself look self-serving and foolish, just like you did at ZDAYZ in front of dozens of people. And hmmm....where was your car, and all your other fast drag cars?? You are a joke.
06-06-2007, 06:26 AM
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Jet,
Where did you have your last oil change? I find it amazing you lost 5 quarts in such low miles that you didn't notice anything. Surely you would have seen smoke while driving or oil deposits where you park...see what I'm getting at? Maybe the last oil change wasn't done? I know that seems like thats very unlikely, but it definately has happened.
Quote from Jeremy:
there is really no debate where it came from, it was either on sharifs dyno or on the road after when larry was driving. so that would be the only debate. not possible that it happened in the 20 mins of it running at 2500 rpms during cam initial break in here.
This sounds like Jeremy is assuming it could have happened on Sharif's dyno. Had this been the case I find it very unlikely it would have gone unnoticed and IF noticed Sharif would have acted accordingly.
One last thing, I think it is time to leave Sharif out of this so he can get back to building my oil burning motor and turbo...lol
And please don't accuse me of nut-hugging FP since I'm just doing my best to help the situation, even if it is futile.
Where did you have your last oil change? I find it amazing you lost 5 quarts in such low miles that you didn't notice anything. Surely you would have seen smoke while driving or oil deposits where you park...see what I'm getting at? Maybe the last oil change wasn't done? I know that seems like thats very unlikely, but it definately has happened.
Quote from Jeremy:
there is really no debate where it came from, it was either on sharifs dyno or on the road after when larry was driving. so that would be the only debate. not possible that it happened in the 20 mins of it running at 2500 rpms during cam initial break in here.
This sounds like Jeremy is assuming it could have happened on Sharif's dyno. Had this been the case I find it very unlikely it would have gone unnoticed and IF noticed Sharif would have acted accordingly.
One last thing, I think it is time to leave Sharif out of this so he can get back to building my oil burning motor and turbo...lol
And please don't accuse me of nut-hugging FP since I'm just doing my best to help the situation, even if it is futile.
06-06-2007, 06:28 AM
#92
ill tell you what happened, me and my people from Performance Factory were trying to call out ANY of FPs cars for some friendly runs.
no one would go?? hell, we would put up AJs stock block against most people
again, i have nothing to hide. we are real here, no BS to sell you stuff...
no one would go?? hell, we would put up AJs stock block against most people
again, i have nothing to hide. we are real here, no BS to sell you stuff...
06-06-2007, 06:32 AM
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Sharif, you're talking about Chucky's car, which apparently was tuned fine and came back a few weeks later running very rich. Apparently something had changed in the setup and I'm assuming that was smoothed over with a tuning session.
I don't think anyone said a "return fuel system" is not needed. It's a nice addition to any setup, and many customers will insist running one even on a stock block. The shop can't really say no to that.
And, in Jeremy's defense of his car's TT setup (which ran mid 10's on a slow launch), the motor was bought pre-built and had a cometic headgasket. This was before the headlift issue had been resolved, and of course it had issues.
Also, FYI, all the other "fast" cars out of his shop are having issues due to other people's screw ups (other shop's built motors), or were there. I have no doubt AJ's car is one of the fastest (full weight even) stock block cars I've seen. Jeremy's car has been on the backburner as cars like my own have been filling up his shop waiting to get fixed or built. His own car is changing to a new setup yet again, and I think it's something that's totally out of the box as far as builds go.
From a non-biased standpoint, Sharif has always been conservative. That's a good thing because it's been consistent. The same setups, the same tunes, the same everything that's worked in the past. This means conservative tuning to avoid issues that would blow up on the forums. Jeremy just has more experience in racing and building motors, and is more of a hard edged type. He loves building fast cars and doing the unconventional. This means trying new things, doing custom work, and being more aggresive when the customer so desires. It doesn't really matter how long his shop has been open, he's been working with cars for a long time.
No doubt, all of this is getting pretty petty. I just think I feel the need to stand up for someone when they're called out and I disagree with the incomplete truths presented while doing so...
What I will agree on is that Jet's car has been pretty dicked up this whole time and during that entire duration, Turbonetics and their customer service was being blamed for it. Trust me, I was there at PRI and more when all of the mudslinging was going down.
I'm truthfully interested in hearing why Jet's car was knocking, even with such a conservative tune. If there's a good reason, then it might help me in my own build.
I don't think anyone said a "return fuel system" is not needed. It's a nice addition to any setup, and many customers will insist running one even on a stock block. The shop can't really say no to that.
And, in Jeremy's defense of his car's TT setup (which ran mid 10's on a slow launch), the motor was bought pre-built and had a cometic headgasket. This was before the headlift issue had been resolved, and of course it had issues.
Also, FYI, all the other "fast" cars out of his shop are having issues due to other people's screw ups (other shop's built motors), or were there. I have no doubt AJ's car is one of the fastest (full weight even) stock block cars I've seen. Jeremy's car has been on the backburner as cars like my own have been filling up his shop waiting to get fixed or built. His own car is changing to a new setup yet again, and I think it's something that's totally out of the box as far as builds go.
From a non-biased standpoint, Sharif has always been conservative. That's a good thing because it's been consistent. The same setups, the same tunes, the same everything that's worked in the past. This means conservative tuning to avoid issues that would blow up on the forums. Jeremy just has more experience in racing and building motors, and is more of a hard edged type. He loves building fast cars and doing the unconventional. This means trying new things, doing custom work, and being more aggresive when the customer so desires. It doesn't really matter how long his shop has been open, he's been working with cars for a long time.
No doubt, all of this is getting pretty petty. I just think I feel the need to stand up for someone when they're called out and I disagree with the incomplete truths presented while doing so...
What I will agree on is that Jet's car has been pretty dicked up this whole time and during that entire duration, Turbonetics and their customer service was being blamed for it. Trust me, I was there at PRI and more when all of the mudslinging was going down.
I'm truthfully interested in hearing why Jet's car was knocking, even with such a conservative tune. If there's a good reason, then it might help me in my own build.
06-06-2007, 06:34 AM
#94
Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
ill tell you what happened, me and my people from Performance Factory were trying to call out ANY of FPs cars for some friendly runs.
no one would go?? hell, we would put up AJs stock block against most people
again, i have nothing to hide. we are real here, no BS to sell you stuff...
no one would go?? hell, we would put up AJs stock block against most people
again, i have nothing to hide. we are real here, no BS to sell you stuff...
06-06-2007, 06:36 AM
#96
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Second, in regards to the tune: I tuned the TN kits way back when the TN kits were first introduced. First, we tuned them with the eManage, and then the UTEC's once they were launched. I have tuned at LEAST a couple dozen of them over the past two years, and about 7 on built engines that I can recall off hand. The timing profiles I run are definatly for a purpose. On stock engines, and stock boost, we can actually run MORE timing, becuase we arent bumping into the extreme backpressure issues that you see at 5500rpm on your dyno chart. We have tuned to 16psi with race fuel on Shervin's car, with the T66 upgrade, and the same curve exists, even with loads more timing involved. Look at every high boost TN dyno chart posted, and you will see the same drop-off in power, and the higher trq vs. hp situation.
The fact is, with the extreme backpressure these kits produce at high boost, you CANNOT safely run what would be considered "normal" timing. We run the maximum amount of timing possible, WITHOUT knock. Anymore timing on your engine, and knock counts were logged. Once Jeremy tunes a few high boost built TN kits, he will understand where I am coming from.
This kit, as I mentioned time and time again, is designed for mild boost, and the curve gets UGLY with high boost. Not by any function of tuning, but rather, due to backpressure. I posted your dyno chart a while back, and also sent it to TN, it help the address this issue for the high boost guys....so we aren't talking about anything new and revolutionary.
.
The fact is, with the extreme backpressure these kits produce at high boost, you CANNOT safely run what would be considered "normal" timing. We run the maximum amount of timing possible, WITHOUT knock. Anymore timing on your engine, and knock counts were logged. Once Jeremy tunes a few high boost built TN kits, he will understand where I am coming from.
This kit, as I mentioned time and time again, is designed for mild boost, and the curve gets UGLY with high boost. Not by any function of tuning, but rather, due to backpressure. I posted your dyno chart a while back, and also sent it to TN, it help the address this issue for the high boost guys....so we aren't talking about anything new and revolutionary.
.
TN kits tune very well at 7psi and 380whp range. Anything higher than that and the dyno chart looks like a cluster fukc. Sharif's initial tune is on par with what we have seen out of TN kits on built motors and higher boost levels.
06-06-2007, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Alberto
Funny you never called me out when you met/talked me. Not 1 PF car would have stood a chance against me at Z day Z
But hey, there's always next year.
06-06-2007, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
I actually will go on the record as saying I actually do agree and support Shariff's statement on this one. Any Turbonetics kit we tried to run past 8-9 psi built motor or not, had the same ugly HP and TQ curve. The piping TN uses is WAAAAY to small for any legitimate forme of power levels. Antother thing we noticed on the TN kits is very uncontrolable boost spikes and boost creep.
TN kits tune very well at 7psi and 380whp range. Anything higher than that and the dyno chart looks like a cluster fukc. Sharif's initial tune is on par with what we have seen out of TN kits on built motors and higher boost levels.
TN kits tune very well at 7psi and 380whp range. Anything higher than that and the dyno chart looks like a cluster fukc. Sharif's initial tune is on par with what we have seen out of TN kits on built motors and higher boost levels.
Besides, this isn't so much about the tune or the turbonetics setup as much as it is about a blown motor...
06-06-2007, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
I actually will go on the record as saying I actually do agree and support Shariff's statement on this one.
