Pics of VRT working out of Mikes House!
Originally Posted by Eagle1
It has been my practice to avoid like the plague a participation in any threads that become heated and personal. The temptation to think that any of us have an answer or explanation that totally resolves a swirling mass/mess of misinformation and fair/unfair criticism is there for all of us...but it seems anyone who comes to the fray with a vision of rules and fairness is immediately overwhelmed in a tidal wave of personal attacks and low blows. So who needs that?
But I do have a point that I would like to make, encouraged by OverZealous1's very objective (and under the circumstances courageous) post. Anybody who has seen his car and talked with him knows that he both knows his stuff and is the benchmark of a true enthusiast.
The business of being a high performance car builder tuner is basically impossible, and unbelieveably stressful. If you build a good car, it is in the interest of everyone else to diss you. If you build a bad car, it is in the interest of everyone else to diss you. If you stay on top of all of minor details like a microscope and push the employees like you need to so that the customer gets the quality and service they deserve, the employees diss you. The customers have no way to know how hard you kill yourself and if the slightest thing gets delayed or something happens that is absolutely not your fault, but goes wrong (parts have been known to do that, especially at the leading edge of high stress/high performance) the customer will diss you. You deal with aftermarket suppliers who nickel and dime you and cheat you. You have regulators down your neck constantly. And you have leakage problems with supplies and parts and other stuff. You cannot be running the business and watching every single little thing to be sure it is done the way you want it done. No matter how hard you try to do it for the best price possible, it always seems like it costs too much to the customer and too little for the builder to make a living. One bad comment can lead to a tsunami of piling on, whether it is right or wrong...and the damage is done. And.....who can deny that no matter how objective we may try to be...the "where there is smoke there must be fire" impression is very hard to put aside from your mind. And at the end of the day, it does not matter if you did something wrong or somebody else did......YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE. One clod you trusted can severely damage your reputation and business. It is his fault, but YOU PAY THE PRICE. And if you are going through all of this and some other guy in the trade is a bad egg, you get tarnished (lawyer jokes anyone???!!) No wonder everybody gets cranky. So far, it is pretty hard to see any good sides to being in the business of building / tuning cars, and some of the most gifted and decent guys out there stick through and take the pounding...and others just decide they do not need it and go back to their hobbyist approach to regain the satisfaction.
I would not bring up their names, but the thread already has so one other point. I have no doubt that Jim Wolf and Clark Steppler could run one of the most awesome and reputable shops in the country if they wanted to. And charge almost any price premium they wanted to and would get it, with a line around the block of supplicants wanting their cars worked on by them. If you spend any time with them at all you quickly realize that the word "genius" as applied to car knowledge is not an overstatement when applied to them. They obviously don't want to do it. Not hard to see why. They can work on tech challenges and come up with solutions in products to sell to the community, but stay one level of insulation away from the enthusiasts they try to serve.....because we are as a body or group a bunch of nutcases to deal with! Many are very decent people, but there is a real nasty contingent out here in the real world......and no way to know which is which.
Mike can and must take care of his business his way. It is not my business to defend him, and I have no interest in getting flogged for standing between him and somebody who wants to smack him. Nor any interest in picking up a cudgel and joining in the assault.
But I can see that there is something else going on here. And in time we are going to find out exactly what it is and why it is going on. It may be along the lines of the speculation and suspicion that is being tossed around in all directions. But it may very well be quite different. It is futile to propose we take this to a higher level of discourse, so I shall now withdraw from this and all other threads again. But for our community of enthusiasts and friends, we would be better off maintaining a friendly and open discourse to encourage a sharing of knowledge, because this type of stuff chases a lot of good people away. Respect to everyone and their views above; but we all, myself included, can do better.
But I do have a point that I would like to make, encouraged by OverZealous1's very objective (and under the circumstances courageous) post. Anybody who has seen his car and talked with him knows that he both knows his stuff and is the benchmark of a true enthusiast.
The business of being a high performance car builder tuner is basically impossible, and unbelieveably stressful. If you build a good car, it is in the interest of everyone else to diss you. If you build a bad car, it is in the interest of everyone else to diss you. If you stay on top of all of minor details like a microscope and push the employees like you need to so that the customer gets the quality and service they deserve, the employees diss you. The customers have no way to know how hard you kill yourself and if the slightest thing gets delayed or something happens that is absolutely not your fault, but goes wrong (parts have been known to do that, especially at the leading edge of high stress/high performance) the customer will diss you. You deal with aftermarket suppliers who nickel and dime you and cheat you. You have regulators down your neck constantly. And you have leakage problems with supplies and parts and other stuff. You cannot be running the business and watching every single little thing to be sure it is done the way you want it done. No matter how hard you try to do it for the best price possible, it always seems like it costs too much to the customer and too little for the builder to make a living. One bad comment can lead to a tsunami of piling on, whether it is right or wrong...and the damage is done. And.....who can deny that no matter how objective we may try to be...the "where there is smoke there must be fire" impression is very hard to put aside from your mind. And at the end of the day, it does not matter if you did something wrong or somebody else did......YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE. One clod you trusted can severely damage your reputation and business. It is his fault, but YOU PAY THE PRICE. And if you are going through all of this and some other guy in the trade is a bad egg, you get tarnished (lawyer jokes anyone???!!) No wonder everybody gets cranky. So far, it is pretty hard to see any good sides to being in the business of building / tuning cars, and some of the most gifted and decent guys out there stick through and take the pounding...and others just decide they do not need it and go back to their hobbyist approach to regain the satisfaction.
I would not bring up their names, but the thread already has so one other point. I have no doubt that Jim Wolf and Clark Steppler could run one of the most awesome and reputable shops in the country if they wanted to. And charge almost any price premium they wanted to and would get it, with a line around the block of supplicants wanting their cars worked on by them. If you spend any time with them at all you quickly realize that the word "genius" as applied to car knowledge is not an overstatement when applied to them. They obviously don't want to do it. Not hard to see why. They can work on tech challenges and come up with solutions in products to sell to the community, but stay one level of insulation away from the enthusiasts they try to serve.....because we are as a body or group a bunch of nutcases to deal with! Many are very decent people, but there is a real nasty contingent out here in the real world......and no way to know which is which.
Mike can and must take care of his business his way. It is not my business to defend him, and I have no interest in getting flogged for standing between him and somebody who wants to smack him. Nor any interest in picking up a cudgel and joining in the assault.
But I can see that there is something else going on here. And in time we are going to find out exactly what it is and why it is going on. It may be along the lines of the speculation and suspicion that is being tossed around in all directions. But it may very well be quite different. It is futile to propose we take this to a higher level of discourse, so I shall now withdraw from this and all other threads again. But for our community of enthusiasts and friends, we would be better off maintaining a friendly and open discourse to encourage a sharing of knowledge, because this type of stuff chases a lot of good people away. Respect to everyone and their views above; but we all, myself included, can do better.
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From: under the hood
Originally Posted by meatbag
My view exactly. The people that actually want to do things right are few and far between.
Originally Posted by Eagle1
It has been my practice to avoid like the plague a participation in any threads that become heated and personal. The temptation to think that any of us have an answer or explanation that totally resolves a swirling mass/mess of misinformation and fair/unfair criticism is there for all of us...but it seems anyone who comes to the fray with a vision of rules and fairness is immediately overwhelmed in a tidal wave of personal attacks and low blows. So who needs that?
But I do have a point that I would like to make, encouraged by OverZealous1's very objective (and under the circumstances courageous) post. Anybody who has seen his car and talked with him knows that he both knows his stuff and is the benchmark of a true enthusiast.
The business of being a high performance car builder tuner is basically impossible, and unbelieveably stressful. If you build a good car, it is in the interest of everyone else to diss you. If you build a bad car, it is in the interest of everyone else to diss you. If you stay on top of all of minor details like a microscope and push the employees like you need to so that the customer gets the quality and service they deserve, the employees diss you. The customers have no way to know how hard you kill yourself and if the slightest thing gets delayed or something happens that is absolutely not your fault, but goes wrong (parts have been known to do that, especially at the leading edge of high stress/high performance) the customer will diss you. You deal with aftermarket suppliers who nickel and dime you and cheat you. You have regulators down your neck constantly. And you have leakage problems with supplies and parts and other stuff. You cannot be running the business and watching every single little thing to be sure it is done the way you want it done. No matter how hard you try to do it for the best price possible, it always seems like it costs too much to the customer and too little for the builder to make a living. One bad comment can lead to a tsunami of piling on, whether it is right or wrong...and the damage is done. And.....who can deny that no matter how objective we may try to be...the "where there is smoke there must be fire" impression is very hard to put aside from your mind. And at the end of the day, it does not matter if you did something wrong or somebody else did......YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE. One clod you trusted can severely damage your reputation and business. It is his fault, but YOU PAY THE PRICE. And if you are going through all of this and some other guy in the trade is a bad egg, you get tarnished (lawyer jokes anyone???!!) No wonder everybody gets cranky. So far, it is pretty hard to see any good sides to being in the business of building / tuning cars, and some of the most gifted and decent guys out there stick through and take the pounding...and others just decide they do not need it and go back to their hobbyist approach to regain the satisfaction.
I would not bring up their names, but the thread already has so one other point. I have no doubt that Jim Wolf and Clark Steppler could run one of the most awesome and reputable shops in the country if they wanted to. And charge almost any price premium they wanted to and would get it, with a line around the block of supplicants wanting their cars worked on by them. If you spend any time with them at all you quickly realize that the word "genius" as applied to car knowledge is not an overstatement when applied to them. They obviously don't want to do it. Not hard to see why. They can work on tech challenges and come up with solutions in products to sell to the community, but stay one level of insulation away from the enthusiasts they try to serve.....because we are as a body or group a bunch of nutcases to deal with! Many are very decent people, but there is a real nasty contingent out here in the real world......and no way to know which is which.
Mike can and must take care of his business his way. It is not my business to defend him, and I have no interest in getting flogged for standing between him and somebody who wants to smack him. Nor any interest in picking up a cudgel and joining in the assault.
But I can see that there is something else going on here. And in time we are going to find out exactly what it is and why it is going on. It may be along the lines of the speculation and suspicion that is being tossed around in all directions. But it may very well be quite different. It is futile to propose we take this to a higher level of discourse, so I shall now withdraw from this and all other threads again. But for our community of enthusiasts and friends, we would be better off maintaining a friendly and open discourse to encourage a sharing of knowledge, because this type of stuff chases a lot of good people away. Respect to everyone and their views above; but we all, myself included, can do better.
But I do have a point that I would like to make, encouraged by OverZealous1's very objective (and under the circumstances courageous) post. Anybody who has seen his car and talked with him knows that he both knows his stuff and is the benchmark of a true enthusiast.
The business of being a high performance car builder tuner is basically impossible, and unbelieveably stressful. If you build a good car, it is in the interest of everyone else to diss you. If you build a bad car, it is in the interest of everyone else to diss you. If you stay on top of all of minor details like a microscope and push the employees like you need to so that the customer gets the quality and service they deserve, the employees diss you. The customers have no way to know how hard you kill yourself and if the slightest thing gets delayed or something happens that is absolutely not your fault, but goes wrong (parts have been known to do that, especially at the leading edge of high stress/high performance) the customer will diss you. You deal with aftermarket suppliers who nickel and dime you and cheat you. You have regulators down your neck constantly. And you have leakage problems with supplies and parts and other stuff. You cannot be running the business and watching every single little thing to be sure it is done the way you want it done. No matter how hard you try to do it for the best price possible, it always seems like it costs too much to the customer and too little for the builder to make a living. One bad comment can lead to a tsunami of piling on, whether it is right or wrong...and the damage is done. And.....who can deny that no matter how objective we may try to be...the "where there is smoke there must be fire" impression is very hard to put aside from your mind. And at the end of the day, it does not matter if you did something wrong or somebody else did......YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE. One clod you trusted can severely damage your reputation and business. It is his fault, but YOU PAY THE PRICE. And if you are going through all of this and some other guy in the trade is a bad egg, you get tarnished (lawyer jokes anyone???!!) No wonder everybody gets cranky. So far, it is pretty hard to see any good sides to being in the business of building / tuning cars, and some of the most gifted and decent guys out there stick through and take the pounding...and others just decide they do not need it and go back to their hobbyist approach to regain the satisfaction.
I would not bring up their names, but the thread already has so one other point. I have no doubt that Jim Wolf and Clark Steppler could run one of the most awesome and reputable shops in the country if they wanted to. And charge almost any price premium they wanted to and would get it, with a line around the block of supplicants wanting their cars worked on by them. If you spend any time with them at all you quickly realize that the word "genius" as applied to car knowledge is not an overstatement when applied to them. They obviously don't want to do it. Not hard to see why. They can work on tech challenges and come up with solutions in products to sell to the community, but stay one level of insulation away from the enthusiasts they try to serve.....because we are as a body or group a bunch of nutcases to deal with! Many are very decent people, but there is a real nasty contingent out here in the real world......and no way to know which is which.
Mike can and must take care of his business his way. It is not my business to defend him, and I have no interest in getting flogged for standing between him and somebody who wants to smack him. Nor any interest in picking up a cudgel and joining in the assault.
But I can see that there is something else going on here. And in time we are going to find out exactly what it is and why it is going on. It may be along the lines of the speculation and suspicion that is being tossed around in all directions. But it may very well be quite different. It is futile to propose we take this to a higher level of discourse, so I shall now withdraw from this and all other threads again. But for our community of enthusiasts and friends, we would be better off maintaining a friendly and open discourse to encourage a sharing of knowledge, because this type of stuff chases a lot of good people away. Respect to everyone and their views above; but we all, myself included, can do better.
I think that Tim did do a low thing, notwithstanding the implied internal confliction about bringing these pictures into the public eye. As is consistent with my past comments about/discussions with Tim and his work, above I said that Tim'c open comment to Mike "I know more then you will ever know when it comes to building and tuning cars" is consistent with the saying "In a World full of blind men the one-eyed man is King". Tim's criticistm of others with respect to knowledge and talent is really funny IMHO.
That nonwithstanding, your experiences with Mike are vastly different from my one experience with him, and certainly the lack of knowledge and reasoning that is requisite of what one would consider a "good engine builder". Moreover, I myself have cought him in what is at least a significant inconsistency, and at most an outright fabrication of a dyno plot and AF ratio on a customer's car that he posted. He of course had no real explanation. The negative sentiment toward Mike is by and large driven my the mass sentiment of the crowd on this forum that like to see people "fall from grace". This of course doens't apply to everyone, but certainly most, and is a well described social phenomenon that we time and time again in real life. However, and this described my own negative sentiment, Mike partly "fell from grace" due to his own doing. In a perfect world, this alone of course should be enough.
Good people are hard to come by, but Mke is not one of them. I agree with you on the feeligns of Jim Wolf completely, why would he want to deal with the end-crowd directly. I just respectfully disagree with you on Mike's volume of knowledge and his ability to adapt and change with the current technology. His lack of research on the cars that he does is evident (at least in my view)...that being said, there hardly exists one single vendor/car builder that is both experienced enough in engine building AND is on the cutting edge of technology and research to build all of us truly special pieces of engineering. . To this end, this forum CAN be a place for exchange of such cutting edge ideas, notwithstanding the "noise" that is the immature and uncontributing crowd. A good engine builder/vendor would learn from these discussions, and there are some truly great discussion about various topics here, albeit rare, and NOT dismiss them entirely like Mike has always done.
this thread is getting ridiculous. VRT should meet legal consequences and pay for their wrong doings, but this forum-bashing is out of control. most of you are just making fun of the situation, just for the *** of it.
Thread Starter
Vendor - Former Vendor
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From: San Diego
Originally Posted by GurgenPB
You know that I have tremendous respect for you as a person, ever since we met a few years back. To this end, my intention here is NOT to promote unconstructive discourse, but rather say the following (or rather reiterate and expand on what I subtly said above):
I think that Tim did do a low thing, notwithstanding the implied internal confliction about bringing these pictures into the public eye. As is consistent with my past comments about/discussions with Tim and his work, above I said that Tim'c open comment to Mike "I know more then you will ever know when it comes to building and tuning cars" is consistent with the saying "In a World full of blind men the one-eyed man is King". Tim's criticistm of others with respect to knowledge and talent is really funny IMHO.
I think that Tim did do a low thing, notwithstanding the implied internal confliction about bringing these pictures into the public eye. As is consistent with my past comments about/discussions with Tim and his work, above I said that Tim'c open comment to Mike "I know more then you will ever know when it comes to building and tuning cars" is consistent with the saying "In a World full of blind men the one-eyed man is King". Tim's criticistm of others with respect to knowledge and talent is really funny IMHO.
Gurgen,
What I did could be condsidered low to some degree. However, anyone that has a shop has to accept the liability of owning and /or running that shop and any and all repercussions that they make for themselves.The vast difference between myself and Mike is that I have legally kept the doors open for 10+ years. Mike had trouble keeping the doors open for six months. If anyone can find some sort of wrong doing on my part then they too can become as "low" as me. By all means report me to the proper authorities and go through any means you see fit.This will either A.force me to comply or B. Close the doors and call it quits. As unfair or unpractical as it may seem,it pushes the fly by night shops with ill intentions out and allows the shops who are wiilling to take this kind of business seriously and run it in a legal and professional manner to not only succeed but even flourish. I have received phone calls and emails from alot of the vendors/people including some that you support, trust and respect very much and they were very supportive of what I had to do. I say had to do because what Mike was doing was not right but in fact illegal. And by conducting himself in this way, he is tarnishing the reputation of various shops here in San Diego and the business in general.
As far as your comments about the one eyed man in a blind mans world....... My critism is based on fact and facts alone. Mike has very, very limited knowledge in tuning, engine building, forced induction, etc.......I know this firsthand which is why I was bold enough to make that statement. The fact is that Mike prefers to pay others to do the work that he is incapable of. There is no way you can learn what took me or even yourself, for example, 10,12,14 years, etc.... in one or two years.You might have an understanding and a technical knowledge but sometimes this alone does not allow a person to fully excel until they have real world experiences in implementing their newly aquired understanding/knowledge.....I am sure you can agree with me since it has been brought up by many in your posts over the years..............
Speaking of eyes....you and I will never see eye to eye.I think we have determined that. You have very limited knowledge on what I can and cant do. The same goes for me. So I will choose to not judge you and keep doing what we do best.........You may not agree with me on this and that is fine...... but the thousands of customers that we have built parts and cars for feel otherwise. Like I said before, 10+ years my doors have been open to the public. Not six months, not one year, not even five years but 10+ years . And let me tell you this, you will not stay in business for this long if you are not doing something right. Take care Gurgen.
Last edited by TurboTim; Aug 4, 2007 at 04:40 PM.
That was a well-written post Eagle1. It does make me appreciate the shops that maintain their honesty and integrity in this cut throat business, even when the going gets tough. Doing what's "right" can often be at odds with doing what's best for business. Kudos to those that find the right balance.
Originally Posted by TurboTim
Gurgen,
What I did could be condsidered low to some degree. However, anyone that has a shop has to accept the liability of owning and /or running that shop and any and all repercussions that they make for themselves.The vast difference between myself and Mike is that I have legally kept the doors open for 10+ years. Mike had trouble keeping the doors open for six months. If anyone can find some sort of wrong doing on my part then they too can become as "low" as me. By all means report me to the proper authorities and go through any means you see fit.This will either A.force me to comply or B. Close the doors and call it quits. As unfair or unpractical as it may seem,it pushes the fly by night shops with ill intentions out and allows the shops who are wiilling to take this kind of business seriously and run it in a legal and professional manner to not only succeed but even flourish. Now on the otherhand, I have received phone calls and emails from alot of the vendors/people including some that you support, trust and respect very much and they were very supportive of what I had to do. I say had to do because what Mike was doing was not right but in fact illegal. And by conducting himself in this way, he is tarnishing the reputation of various shops here in San Diego and the business in general.
As far as your comments about the one eyed man in a blind mans world....... My critism is based on fact and facts alone. Mike has very, very limited knowledge in tuning, engine building, forced induction, etc.......I know this firsthand which is why I was bold enough to make that statement. The fact is that Mike prefers to pay others to do the work that he is incapable of. There is no way you can learn what took me or even yourself, for example, 10,12,14 years, etc.... in one or two years.You might have an understanding and a technical knowledge but sometimes this alone does not allow a person to fully excel until they have real world experiences in implementing their newly aquired understanding/knowledge.....I am sure you can agree with me since it has been brought up by many in your posts over the years..............
Speaking of eyes....you and I will never see eye to eye.I think we have determined that. You have very limited knowledge on what I can and cant do. The same goes for me. So I will choose to not judge you and keep doing what we do best.........You may not agree with me on this and that is fine...... but the thousands of customers that we have built parts and cars for feel otherwise. Like I said before, 10+ years my doors have been open to the public. Not six months, not one year, not even five years but 10+ years . And let me tell you this, you will not stay in business for this long if you are not doing something right. Take care Gurgen.
What I did could be condsidered low to some degree. However, anyone that has a shop has to accept the liability of owning and /or running that shop and any and all repercussions that they make for themselves.The vast difference between myself and Mike is that I have legally kept the doors open for 10+ years. Mike had trouble keeping the doors open for six months. If anyone can find some sort of wrong doing on my part then they too can become as "low" as me. By all means report me to the proper authorities and go through any means you see fit.This will either A.force me to comply or B. Close the doors and call it quits. As unfair or unpractical as it may seem,it pushes the fly by night shops with ill intentions out and allows the shops who are wiilling to take this kind of business seriously and run it in a legal and professional manner to not only succeed but even flourish. Now on the otherhand, I have received phone calls and emails from alot of the vendors/people including some that you support, trust and respect very much and they were very supportive of what I had to do. I say had to do because what Mike was doing was not right but in fact illegal. And by conducting himself in this way, he is tarnishing the reputation of various shops here in San Diego and the business in general.
As far as your comments about the one eyed man in a blind mans world....... My critism is based on fact and facts alone. Mike has very, very limited knowledge in tuning, engine building, forced induction, etc.......I know this firsthand which is why I was bold enough to make that statement. The fact is that Mike prefers to pay others to do the work that he is incapable of. There is no way you can learn what took me or even yourself, for example, 10,12,14 years, etc.... in one or two years.You might have an understanding and a technical knowledge but sometimes this alone does not allow a person to fully excel until they have real world experiences in implementing their newly aquired understanding/knowledge.....I am sure you can agree with me since it has been brought up by many in your posts over the years..............
Speaking of eyes....you and I will never see eye to eye.I think we have determined that. You have very limited knowledge on what I can and cant do. The same goes for me. So I will choose to not judge you and keep doing what we do best.........You may not agree with me on this and that is fine...... but the thousands of customers that we have built parts and cars for feel otherwise. Like I said before, 10+ years my doors have been open to the public. Not six months, not one year, not even five years but 10+ years . And let me tell you this, you will not stay in business for this long if you are not doing something right. Take care Gurgen.
That's well said, i mean it. I know we don't see eye-to-eye, that's for certain, and of course what i say is largely based on research. But that's the only claim that I make, unless otherwise specified, and I do not post anything unless it's independently verified and triple-checked. That's all I can offer, and my criticism is based on that.... not to say that I think that's not enough to make the points that I make, nonetheless, it's up to the reader... H20 under the bridge
Originally Posted by TurboTim
Rude G.I was just having a little fun.I really dont know whose cars are there. I just know that they probably wont get the work done they paid for
Originally Posted by Eagle1
...The business of being a high performance car builder tuner is basically impossible, and unbelieveably stressful. If you build a good car, it is in the interest of everyone else to diss you. If you build a bad car, it is in the interest of everyone else to diss you. If you stay on top of all of minor details like a microscope and push the employees like you need to so that the customer gets the quality and service they deserve, the employees diss you. The customers have no way to know how hard you kill yourself and if the slightest thing gets delayed or something happens that is absolutely not your fault, but goes wrong (parts have been known to do that, especially at the leading edge of high stress/high performance) the customer will diss you. You deal with aftermarket suppliers who nickel and dime you and cheat you. You have regulators down your neck constantly. And you have leakage problems with supplies and parts and other stuff. You cannot be running the business and watching every single little thing to be sure it is done the way you want it done. No matter how hard you try to do it for the best price possible, it always seems like it costs too much to the customer and too little for the builder to make a living. One bad comment can lead to a tsunami of piling on, whether it is right or wrong...and the damage is done. And.....who can deny that no matter how objective we may try to be...the "where there is smoke there must be fire" impression is very hard to put aside from your mind. And at the end of the day, it does not matter if you did something wrong or somebody else did......YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE. One clod you trusted can severely damage your reputation and business. It is his fault, but YOU PAY THE PRICE. And if you are going through all of this and some other guy in the trade is a bad egg, you get tarnished (lawyer jokes anyone???!!) No wonder everybody gets cranky. So far, it is pretty hard to see any good sides to being in the business of building / tuning cars, and some of the most gifted and decent guys out there stick through and take the pounding...and others just decide they do not need it and go back to their hobbyist approach to regain the satisfaction.
And of course, running your own business can be very demanding and stressful (as it is for my father's business). But I also believe that running your own business, including a speed shop, can be very rewarding and satisfying too. I truly believe that the better and well respected shops across the country have owners and management that are truly performance car enthusiasts who are passionate about the work they do and therefore take pride in quality workmanship and customer satisfaction above all other business priorities.
Now with regards to VRT... I don't think the majority of the community (customers, enthusiasts, vendors, sponsors, or myself) were "dissing" VRT without cause because of jealousy, competition, or misinformation. VRT's troubles are not due to the everyday challenges of running a performance shop, nor should a finger of blame be pointed at a supposedly malicious Z/G community. Miguel's own unethical business practices are to blame for VRT's "fall from grace". There has been an ongoing pattern of troubling behavior by VRT that has been well documented and exposed on this forum. Here's the partial list (I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things
):-Horsepower/dyno claims that were impossible given the size of the turbos used.
-A lack of cooperation/response from VRT to obtain independent dyno testing to support their outrageous horsepower claims.
-Getting caught red-handed staging threads on this forum.
-Multiple first hand allegations of unauthorized charges on customers' credit cards.
-First hand allegations of used parts being sold and installed as new.
-A former employee failing to divulge his association with VRT (until it was exposed) while adamantly defending them by being a dismissive ***** to the the alleged victims who were coming forward to share their personal negative experiences with VRT.
-Mods informing us that VRT will not officially respond to the accusations due to pending legal action.
-VRT getting stripped of their sponsorship on this site.
Miguel now operating his business illegally at his residence is important because it shows that the pattern of unethical and illegal behavior by Miguel is continuing and that more uninformed/innocent customers can potentially be victimized. I personally believe that Miguel should not be allowed or encouraged to continue his illegal activities without accountability or consequence. Again, kudos to Tim and Mia for stepping up and taking action to end the continuing wrongful practices of Miguel and his company.
The Z/G community and this forum have a responsibility to keep people informed and to warn potential customers about people/shops like Miguel and VRT. Tim's photos of unfinished cars being left out in the open, uncovered, and exposed to the elements are valuable information that may (and should) dissuade potential customers. As I recall, a couple guys already came on here and said they were considering or were about to send their cars to VRT until they saw this thread. Knowledge is power and knowledge will help put shops out of business that are undeserving of our trust and money.
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; Aug 5, 2007 at 08:08 AM.
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Outstanding Work
Tim that is a great thing you did. I can't believe that people aren't checking in on the shop before they drop some cash.
Later Rob
Later Rob
Originally Posted by TurboTim
At first I was a little hesistant to do this and post up the pictures but after receiveing several phone calls from some of the forum sponsers who own and run legitimate and legal shops............I am glad I did do this. Thanks for the phone calls guys. It makes me feel better about the situation.
adding on
Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0
Here's the partial list (I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things):
-Horsepower/dyno claims that were impossible given the size of the turbos used.
-A lack of cooperation/response from VRT to obtain independent dyno testing to support their outrageous horsepower claims.
-Getting caught red-handed staging threads on this forum.
-Multiple first hand allegations of unauthorized charges on customers' credit cards.
-First hand allegations of used parts being sold and installed as new.
-A former employee failing to divulge his association with VRT (until it was exposed) while adamantly defending them by being a dismissive ***** to the the alleged victims who were coming forward to share their personal negative experiences with VRT.
-Mods informing us that VRT will not officially respond to the accusations due to pending legal action.
-VRT getting stripped of their sponsorship on this site.
):-Horsepower/dyno claims that were impossible given the size of the turbos used.
-A lack of cooperation/response from VRT to obtain independent dyno testing to support their outrageous horsepower claims.
-Getting caught red-handed staging threads on this forum.
-Multiple first hand allegations of unauthorized charges on customers' credit cards.
-First hand allegations of used parts being sold and installed as new.
-A former employee failing to divulge his association with VRT (until it was exposed) while adamantly defending them by being a dismissive ***** to the the alleged victims who were coming forward to share their personal negative experiences with VRT.
-Mods informing us that VRT will not officially respond to the accusations due to pending legal action.
-VRT getting stripped of their sponsorship on this site.
- selling clients name brand parts which are then replaced with hacked up, fabricated parts
- using client purchased parts on the VRT shop car
- restocking fee for used turbo kit that did not belong to them
i'm sure others can continue to add to this atrocious list of shady dealings... honestly, Miguel needs to enjoy some prison time.
WOW.......Ive dealt with scumbag tuners[lost thousands of dollors/none from the 350z world] before but this guy takes the cake....Makes me sick that I actually defended them based on their on track success.....I actually seriously considered purchasing there suspension at one point before this mess all started just based on there percieved knowhow and track results....Good results dont nessessarily mean a shop is ethical.....The consumer really is vulnerable to ANY shop as ethics sometimes skips a few costomers..That has been my experience. Thats why sometimes you can hear 100 people say great things about shop X while you will hear 20 say negative things....Its a crap shoot when ever you choose to spend your hard earned money with ANY shop.......A reputable shop is like a needle in a haystack. There appears to be a "few" of them in this community that Ive become aware of personally and by word of mouth....But the flipside is you just cant please everyone so shops will have a few bad transactions....In the end us consumers have the most to lose because we have to trust a shop to have integrity.........
This is the number 1 reason my car is still bone stock as far as engine mods go....Not just shops are unethical but also Vendors.....Advertized gains from Headers, exhaust, intakes, for example, are most of the time outright exaggerated lies that cost us consumers thousands of dollars for much less than the advertized gains..But yet we still plop down our hard earned money for these pipe dreams and then complain when we run stock times with these mods......
This industry as a whole is geared to, tickle your ears...In other words, tell you what you want to hear, so you will open your wallet...It capitalizes on human nature...We all want the hear "exhaust makes 20hp", "you dynoed 500hp with a turbinator" etc.....And as in this shops case fixed dyno numbers to support there claims....And I doubt they are the only ones that have done this...At the end of the day its our responsibility as the consumer to check a shop out thoroughly[?] before pulling the trigger.....Buyer beware....
Forums like this provide a lot of info for most of us to make an educated decission though you do have to wade through alot of bs to get the decission making info....I support anyone that "blows the whistle" legitimately on a piece of garbage like this shop appears to be.....Thank you...
This is the number 1 reason my car is still bone stock as far as engine mods go....Not just shops are unethical but also Vendors.....Advertized gains from Headers, exhaust, intakes, for example, are most of the time outright exaggerated lies that cost us consumers thousands of dollars for much less than the advertized gains..But yet we still plop down our hard earned money for these pipe dreams and then complain when we run stock times with these mods......
This industry as a whole is geared to, tickle your ears...In other words, tell you what you want to hear, so you will open your wallet...It capitalizes on human nature...We all want the hear "exhaust makes 20hp", "you dynoed 500hp with a turbinator" etc.....And as in this shops case fixed dyno numbers to support there claims....And I doubt they are the only ones that have done this...At the end of the day its our responsibility as the consumer to check a shop out thoroughly[?] before pulling the trigger.....Buyer beware....
Forums like this provide a lot of info for most of us to make an educated decission though you do have to wade through alot of bs to get the decission making info....I support anyone that "blows the whistle" legitimately on a piece of garbage like this shop appears to be.....Thank you...
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Originally Posted by 9kFever
Hey Tim, clear some room in your PM box. Still havent recieved those funds....any luck talking to the merchant? Thanks!
I just cleared some pm's.It has gone through.Check again
When those parts show up I will let you know otherwise we just keep them on the shelf.
Thread Starter
Vendor - Former Vendor
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From: San Diego
One other thing I would like to add.Now that this community has been informed,there is still one communty that is stuck in the dark.Those are the people that frequent the track like Cal Speedway,Willow Springs,etc......This is Mikes next source of potential revenue and trust me,he will do what he can to secure some jobs from potential clients at the track.He was just there last week and one of my good friends was their listenng to Mike run his game(Derrek King is my good friend Mike since I know you are reading this).Fortunately enough my friend knows alot and knew that Mike was FOS. He let me know this when he dropped of his Audi S4 on Friday.My point is that alot of these guys that go to the track and dont come on these boards are obivious to what is going on. So if you are at the track, spread the word!
