MacGuffin

Using alcohol as the fuel, not just as a fuel additive/supplement (as in water-methanol injection), has some real advantages in a FI application. Has anybody done a boosted VQ that runs on methanol, ethanol, or E85? Are any of the usual EMS even capable of handling these fuels, or would you have to go to something like MoTeC?

Dynosty

iTrader: (27)

Yes it does, but running meth is so rough you aren't going to see anyone running it in a street car. Having to flush the fuel system when you park it every night wouldn't be fun

Haltech would have no problem running a car on it, you are still just fueling and timing

go-fast

if you duel fuel you can shut it down on gas ,would take only a very small tank and switch

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

why not just get it all over with and go straight nitromethane?

go-fast

with nitro the cops smell you down the street!you could always throw 10% on top for special nights.

DMK

iTrader: (6)

E85 is definitely something I am interested in. Some Evo guys have already done it and are running great. I think all you need to change are injectors, fuel pump and lines. Great thing about E85 is that it is like running 110 Octane for your car and your car is SMOG exempt(Great for CA cars). Also cost less thank a gallon of Premium.

TENGAI

iTrader: (5)

Hmmmm. E85 sounds promising. Anyone else with any info on this?

go-fast

i wouldn't try to use it for economy,i think you will be dissapointed,fuel consumption goes way up.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

that would actually be a bad-*** thing to do
switch to E85, and use straight water injection instead of water/meth, and ultimately have a cooler, safer, higher power car
be emissions exempt, and be cleaner on the environment

right now I'm paying $6 a gallon for 101 octane race gas and doing a 50/50 mix of that with premium, so I'd end up saving money in the long run

DMK

iTrader: (6)

Ya, fuel consumption will go up about 30%, but its around $2.00 a gallon for the fuel and it is like running 100+ octane fuel. I think its up to 105, not 110, my mistake. Also, I think Meth injection won't work with E85. Not too sure about water.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

why wouldn't it work? does evaporation in the intake not take place with an engine running E85? Does meth no longer burn? I'm skeptical about it not working

go-fast

you will double the amount of fuel used

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I've read it's 30-42% more

this would suck as a track fuel like for road courses
you'd have to bring a million gallons with you to the track unless they start selling it there

go-fast

it would work but youre combo would have to be so radical for it to be needed.

MacGuffin

Fuel consumption would not go up about 30%.

It all depends on what baseline performance you are starting from, but ethanol's advantages in detonation resistance and latent heat/charge cooling mean that you can typically run both higher compression and closer to stoichiometric AFR than with gasoline. That means that fuel consumption would not be much more than with gasoline, and it could even be less if the gasoline configuration was high-boost with very rich AFR.

Take a look at the Saab BioPower. Not exactly a high-performance car, but it does give you some idea of what can be done with turbo ethanol.

If you look beyond the practical to current laboratory efforts, the combination of very high static compression ratio (around 19.5:1) with low boost (around 6 psi) and a lot of EGR (with its own flow control solenoid and intercooler) can actually get you fuel efficiency running on ethanol that rivals diesels.

go-fast

yeah,alcohol is around 6 to 1 af.not sure what the offset of 15% gas has with e85

MacGuffin

Just looking at AFR or btu/gallon doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story.

Let me give you a specific datapoint to illustrate -- not to claim that the same ratios would apply to a VQ running E85.

2005 Saab 9-3 had a 2.0l turbocharged engine burning unleaded gasoline. It produced 175 hp and 195 lb-ft. Fuel economy with the manual transmission was 23 mpg city, 34 mpg highway.

2007 Saab 9-3 BioPower has a 1.8l turbocharged engine burning E85 (it can also burn regular unleaded, but these numbers are for E85.) It produces 175 hp and 195 lb-ft (25 more hp and 18 more lb-ft than when burning gasoline.) Fuel economy with the manual transmission is 22 mpg city, 39 mpg highway.

go-fast

thats a great example but i was under the impression that this thread was about performance with alcohol not turning my car into a prius

MacGuffin

Try to pay attention.

If anything, the comparative fuel economy numbers will be even better for high-performance turbo engines. You are likely running far richer AFR in a high-boost gasoline engine than does the 2.0l Saab. That is because you are using the excess gasoline not only for fuel, but also for charge cooling. Because of its latent heat advantage and inherently lower AFR, using ethanol or E85 means that you don't need to run a richer AFR than is needed for either max power or max efficiency (depending on which you are trying to achieve) just to achieve charge cooling -- you essentially get charge cooling for free with ethanol!

DMK

iTrader: (6)

I got the 30% number off of a website, which states that it is around there. I am assuming they were referring to comparable A/F ratios with gasoline.

Evo guys running E85 stated that straight Meth won't work, I don't know the exact reason why.