Procharger release date
05-23-2003, 06:09 PM
#61
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When is after the TB is like the Stillen (replace the intake plenum)
when is before the TB is like the Pics of the Corvette (Like a Turbo but with out the Exhaust Housing, replace it with the pulley and belt) procharger is a system that goes before the TB.
I hope this will help!
when is before the TB is like the Pics of the Corvette (Like a Turbo but with out the Exhaust Housing, replace it with the pulley and belt) procharger is a system that goes before the TB.
I hope this will help!
05-23-2003, 08:30 PM
#62
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Originally posted by Monkey Man
I love my Z, and it is my baby... so I'm not going to put something on it that I think will harm it. I will of course be installing safety devices for worst cases scenarios. The kit will run somewhere near 9psi, and can later be upgraded to run closer to 15psi.
The kit comes with an intercooler, so temps can be kept down. I will also be installing a J & S safeguard to detect any knock, and adjust the timing accordingly. This is what alot of other high CR guys run on their setups to prevent detonation problems.
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/
I think the power/cost factor of this kit will make it an instant hit, and as long as you have it installed by a competent shop, there should be no problems. The kits are warrantied, so Procharger is willing to stand behind their product just like companies such as Greddy will. Personally, I think I would be stupid to pay twice the price for less power. (I'm talking about buying a turbo kit for twice the price, which will make less power.)
We will all learn alot this summer I am sure, so lets all be patient and continue to support one another in our endeavours.
-Jeremy
I love my Z, and it is my baby... so I'm not going to put something on it that I think will harm it. I will of course be installing safety devices for worst cases scenarios. The kit will run somewhere near 9psi, and can later be upgraded to run closer to 15psi.
The kit comes with an intercooler, so temps can be kept down. I will also be installing a J & S safeguard to detect any knock, and adjust the timing accordingly. This is what alot of other high CR guys run on their setups to prevent detonation problems.
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/
I think the power/cost factor of this kit will make it an instant hit, and as long as you have it installed by a competent shop, there should be no problems. The kits are warrantied, so Procharger is willing to stand behind their product just like companies such as Greddy will. Personally, I think I would be stupid to pay twice the price for less power. (I'm talking about buying a turbo kit for twice the price, which will make less power.)
We will all learn alot this summer I am sure, so lets all be patient and continue to support one another in our endeavours.
-Jeremy
Jeff
05-23-2003, 11:45 PM
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Super vs. Turbo charging
First off... "If you drive your car often, I would stay away from turbo." This is blasphemy. Explain yourself (education NOT speculation please). Explain to all those truckers out there why they shouldn't drive their rigs regularly. Explain why I have over 130K miles on my two STOCK turbochargers -- a 60 mile per day commute I might add (and I DON'T use a turbo timer). Explain why a Porsche twin turbo is the most reliable supercar out there.
Now for the guy that asked about the differences:
<compiled from a great website>
BASIC DIFFERENCES:
The major difference is in the drive system of the 2 systems. A turbocharger's compressor section is connected directly by a shaft to the turbine housing. The turbine is the portion of the turbo that takes exhaust energy (heat and pressure) and converts it to motion. Since the turbine and the compressor are connected by a shaft, the compressor spins at the same rate as the turbine.
On a supercharger, the compressor section is connected to a step up mechanism (gears, belts, pulleys or whatever) and then to the engine drive belt. The step up mechanism is required to convert the 6000 (or so) engine rpm, to the 40,000+ rpm necessary to build boost.
Centrifugal compressors build boost as rpm increases in close to an exponential fashion. Turbo's come up to speed very quickly (almost instantly if properly sized), and once a desired boost level is reached, excess exhaust gas is bypassed around the turbine by a 'waste gate'. What this does is limit the speed of the compressor (and turbine) and therefore boost. The point where the waste gate opens can be set so as to produce a desired rpm and boost level. With a turbo then, as soon as there is sufficient exhaust flow, the turbine will come to speed, and you can have full boost within a fraction of a second. A properly sized turbo can achieve its maximum boost setting at almost any rpm you desire, on a 6000rpm motor, this can be as low as about 2500rpm.
A supercharger on the other hand relies on engine rpm to come up to speed, so maximum boost wont 'come on' until higher rpm. If you buy a supercharger marketed as an 8psi kit, that generally is the maximum boost on a stock engine. But due to it exponential nature, boost will quickly drop with rpm. If your kit makes 8 psi at 6000 rpm, it will generally make less than 2.5 psi at 3000rpm.
REAL DIFFERENCES:
Now you know that due to the nature of the centrifugal compressor design, a turbo will reach its target boost level much quicker than a belt driven supercharger. Are there any other differences you might ask?
It takes power to pump (compress) a large volume of air (700+cfm). The supercharger's power is derived directly from the crank shaft, where as a turbo's power comes from energy contained in the exhaust gasses. On a typical 8 psi supercharger, the power used can be in the neighborhood of 40-60hp! On a 1500hp engine, the power used by the supercharger can be as much as 300hp! This would leave only 1200hp to accelerate the car.
A turbo is not entirely 'free' horsepower as some additional back pressure is created by the turbine, but a turbo derives a very large portion of its energy from heat. This is shown by the fact that exhaust gas temperature can drop by as much as 300 degrees Fahrenheit as it leaves the turbine housing. In essence the power 'robbed' by the extra back pressure is very small (also due to other more 'complicated' factors like critical exhaust flow, but we wont get into that here).
So what does this all mean? Basically an 8 psi turbo kit will produce more peak power due to the fact that a supercharger is using a fairly large amount of power just to get it spinning. What is more important for a street car is 'power under the curve' meaning the average horsepower produced. This is where the turbo really shines since you can have full boost at as little as 2500 rpm! This will make the turbo car feel like it has 50% more cubic inches (or more). The difference in torque at low rpm's can be as much as 100 lb ft in favor of the turbo due to the additional available boost....now that's performance!
<end of compilation>
My opinion is that a turbo will outperform (and is way more efficient) than a supercharger, however, for the begginer, the supercharger is a simpler and more user friendly system -- thus its popularity with the camaro guys camp!
Look at any real class of racing car -- power is made with turbochargers. The exception being drag racing -- and look at the horsepower it takes just to drive one of those huge blowers (1500+hp) that sits on top of Kenny Bernsteins machine (6500 hp). Tons of horsepower, but man thats really inefficient.
Then look at the mid 80's F1 BMW 1.5L (Yes, 91 cubic inches) I4 Turbo, it produce 1,400hp in qualifying on a couple of the tracks.
Bernsteins car is getting roughly 609 useable hp per liter where the old bmw is able to manage about 1000 hp per liter.
Don't get me wrong, superchargers have their place -- I just believe it is on a mustang. The history of the Z has 'turbo' written all over it -- and the 350Z would feel mighty comfortable with 2 of 'em strapped to its underside.
I love my 300ZXTT, and am waiting patiently for a quality TT solution before I jump on a 350. I do believe that it will have to come from the aftermarket though. Nissan will save its TT for the Infiniti Skyline
So flame my OPINIONS if you must -- but please don't argue with the facts.
Respectfully,
DR
Now for the guy that asked about the differences:
<compiled from a great website>
BASIC DIFFERENCES:
The major difference is in the drive system of the 2 systems. A turbocharger's compressor section is connected directly by a shaft to the turbine housing. The turbine is the portion of the turbo that takes exhaust energy (heat and pressure) and converts it to motion. Since the turbine and the compressor are connected by a shaft, the compressor spins at the same rate as the turbine.
On a supercharger, the compressor section is connected to a step up mechanism (gears, belts, pulleys or whatever) and then to the engine drive belt. The step up mechanism is required to convert the 6000 (or so) engine rpm, to the 40,000+ rpm necessary to build boost.
Centrifugal compressors build boost as rpm increases in close to an exponential fashion. Turbo's come up to speed very quickly (almost instantly if properly sized), and once a desired boost level is reached, excess exhaust gas is bypassed around the turbine by a 'waste gate'. What this does is limit the speed of the compressor (and turbine) and therefore boost. The point where the waste gate opens can be set so as to produce a desired rpm and boost level. With a turbo then, as soon as there is sufficient exhaust flow, the turbine will come to speed, and you can have full boost within a fraction of a second. A properly sized turbo can achieve its maximum boost setting at almost any rpm you desire, on a 6000rpm motor, this can be as low as about 2500rpm.
A supercharger on the other hand relies on engine rpm to come up to speed, so maximum boost wont 'come on' until higher rpm. If you buy a supercharger marketed as an 8psi kit, that generally is the maximum boost on a stock engine. But due to it exponential nature, boost will quickly drop with rpm. If your kit makes 8 psi at 6000 rpm, it will generally make less than 2.5 psi at 3000rpm.
REAL DIFFERENCES:
Now you know that due to the nature of the centrifugal compressor design, a turbo will reach its target boost level much quicker than a belt driven supercharger. Are there any other differences you might ask?
It takes power to pump (compress) a large volume of air (700+cfm). The supercharger's power is derived directly from the crank shaft, where as a turbo's power comes from energy contained in the exhaust gasses. On a typical 8 psi supercharger, the power used can be in the neighborhood of 40-60hp! On a 1500hp engine, the power used by the supercharger can be as much as 300hp! This would leave only 1200hp to accelerate the car.
A turbo is not entirely 'free' horsepower as some additional back pressure is created by the turbine, but a turbo derives a very large portion of its energy from heat. This is shown by the fact that exhaust gas temperature can drop by as much as 300 degrees Fahrenheit as it leaves the turbine housing. In essence the power 'robbed' by the extra back pressure is very small (also due to other more 'complicated' factors like critical exhaust flow, but we wont get into that here).
So what does this all mean? Basically an 8 psi turbo kit will produce more peak power due to the fact that a supercharger is using a fairly large amount of power just to get it spinning. What is more important for a street car is 'power under the curve' meaning the average horsepower produced. This is where the turbo really shines since you can have full boost at as little as 2500 rpm! This will make the turbo car feel like it has 50% more cubic inches (or more). The difference in torque at low rpm's can be as much as 100 lb ft in favor of the turbo due to the additional available boost....now that's performance!
<end of compilation>
My opinion is that a turbo will outperform (and is way more efficient) than a supercharger, however, for the begginer, the supercharger is a simpler and more user friendly system -- thus its popularity with the camaro guys camp!
Look at any real class of racing car -- power is made with turbochargers. The exception being drag racing -- and look at the horsepower it takes just to drive one of those huge blowers (1500+hp) that sits on top of Kenny Bernsteins machine (6500 hp). Tons of horsepower, but man thats really inefficient.
Then look at the mid 80's F1 BMW 1.5L (Yes, 91 cubic inches) I4 Turbo, it produce 1,400hp in qualifying on a couple of the tracks.
Bernsteins car is getting roughly 609 useable hp per liter where the old bmw is able to manage about 1000 hp per liter.
Don't get me wrong, superchargers have their place -- I just believe it is on a mustang. The history of the Z has 'turbo' written all over it -- and the 350Z would feel mighty comfortable with 2 of 'em strapped to its underside.
I love my 300ZXTT, and am waiting patiently for a quality TT solution before I jump on a 350. I do believe that it will have to come from the aftermarket though. Nissan will save its TT for the Infiniti Skyline
So flame my OPINIONS if you must -- but please don't argue with the facts.
Respectfully,
DR
05-24-2003, 07:01 AM
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Re: Super vs. Turbo charging
Originally posted by drzedd
First off... "If you drive your car often, I would stay away from turbo." This is blasphemy. Explain yourself (education NOT speculation please). Explain to all those truckers out there why they shouldn't drive their rigs regularly. Explain why I have over 130K miles on my two STOCK turbochargers -- a 60 mile per day commute I might add (and I DON'T use a turbo timer). Explain why a Porsche twin turbo is the most reliable supercar out there.
First off... "If you drive your car often, I would stay away from turbo." This is blasphemy. Explain yourself (education NOT speculation please). Explain to all those truckers out there why they shouldn't drive their rigs regularly. Explain why I have over 130K miles on my two STOCK turbochargers -- a 60 mile per day commute I might add (and I DON'T use a turbo timer). Explain why a Porsche twin turbo is the most reliable supercar out there.
05-24-2003, 08:06 AM
#67
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drzedd:
Thanks for the info. Wow, great post considering it is your 2nd one only. I am on a learning curve on FI and I guess it is good the Greddy TT and ATI SC kits are being delayed a little bit so I can learn enough to make the best choice for my needs.
On another topic, I agree, a turbo can be dependable as a normal driver. Just look at the history of the Z. The 300 TT was a very dependable set up. If I am wrong, alot of owners of those cars would be warning us not to do it. There is still a bunch of 300TT and even older turbo Z's on the road still with the original set up. Still going strong after 200K +. The 300 TT was the best turbo set up for dependabilty because Nissan improved the turbo materials thus more dependable.
Jeff
Thanks for the info. Wow, great post considering it is your 2nd one only. I am on a learning curve on FI and I guess it is good the Greddy TT and ATI SC kits are being delayed a little bit so I can learn enough to make the best choice for my needs.
On another topic, I agree, a turbo can be dependable as a normal driver. Just look at the history of the Z. The 300 TT was a very dependable set up. If I am wrong, alot of owners of those cars would be warning us not to do it. There is still a bunch of 300TT and even older turbo Z's on the road still with the original set up. Still going strong after 200K +. The 300 TT was the best turbo set up for dependabilty because Nissan improved the turbo materials thus more dependable.
Jeff
05-24-2003, 09:13 AM
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If you drive your car often, I would stay away from turbo.
Some auto manufacturers have put out bad turbo setups in the past. I think Mazda is a great example. The 3rd generation RX-7 had more than its fair share of driving problems due to its sequential twin turbo setup and lack of an adequate cooling system. However, a knowledgable car enthusiast would know to buy an intercooler and radiator before driving 100 miles in stop and go traffic every day or upping the boost. What it really boils down to is knowledge. If you know what you're doing you won't have problems.
I'm not sure, but didn't the 300zx have a few problems with heat due to the cramped engine bay? I haven't been keeping up with it since SCC stopped building that project car. Either way, if you pay close attention to your car, a turbo can be just as dependable as a N/A car. But if you don't, it will blow up in your face.
Maybe the statement should read: "if you don't have the time to pay attention to your car, I would stay away from turbo."
06-12-2003, 09:23 PM
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Hmmmm
Zland:
There's really nothing special to the z32's setup. The turbos are really stock off-the-shelf units. They are sized smaller to minimize lag. I get full boost at VERY low rpm's. The one thing you need to be assured of is that Nissan does not make a crappy engine. The VG35DETT can handle massive amounts of power -- and I expect the same (or better) from the VQ. The VQ maybe having the advantage of having a timing chain instead of the VG's belt. Both are interference engines, so my nod goes to the chain. I think you will see that when the aftermarket for the z33 & g35 matures there will be PLENTY of very powerful AND reliable recipies. These early adopters are beta testers -- maybe even alpha testers. Patience is a virtue here.
Oh yeah, my second post here but I am a regular on other boards. Started at tt.net/com as ZedHead in about 1998 or 1999 I think. I am now Dr Zedd on twinturbo.net and here. I don't like to post a lot here yet-- I just amuse myself with all the Z n00bs who have jumped on this fine machine without having any knowlege of z's (or even cars). They hear some advertising pitch and have to be one of the first to buy a grounding kit or some fancy car wax, or some other widget. Those posts are almost always started by the person selling the stuff -- funny to me.
350zDanny:
For every apex seal blowing rx7, I can point you to several on their original engines putting out crazy amounts of power. It seems as though with the rx7's it was more a roll of the dice on if you had a crap engine. Yes, the sequential turbo set up was very complicated. Cool concept, but very complicated (same type of setup as the poopra's). Yes the z32 has heat issues. But let me add that I drive in stop and go crap about 1.5 hours per day on I-85 in Atlanta -- Hot as h#ll and very little air flow over the radiator. In these conditions, my temp gauge has NEVER moved off it's usual mark -- doesnt matter if I'm standing still or doing 100mph. Internal temps are very good and very stable. Now my hood is a different story -- when It rains on it, the water steams away. I do not have my underhood insulation installed (haven't for about 40K miles now) and still have no problems.
As for a turbo needing attention, I'm not sure I agree with that 100%. I change my oil -- that's about it. I have used Mobile1 since I've owned the car. Sometimes I remember to change it at 3500 miles, sometimes I remember at 4 or 5K miles. A couple of times I've remembered closer to 7K miles. Air cooled Porsches with mobile1 are good for up to 12K miles between oil changes -- thats from the factory!
My car is a daily driver. The only shows I participate in are massive displays of power to corvette owners. I currently have all the panels in the back removed (to get to the rear shocks). It is currently coated with 2 weeks of rain/roadgrime/pollen. Most of you would chastise me for the attention I do NOT give my z -- yet I can turn my boost up to 15lbs and show most of you 350 owners just what you're missing. My personal philosophy is to keep the stereo OFF and pay attention to the beautiful sound of your machine -- the sweetest preventive maintenance I can think of. Ever research what year it was that Ferrari put radios in their best sports cars?? A ferrari engine at 7000 RPM is music enough. Too many young drivers are worried about the position of their seat, the color of their padded shoulder harnesses, the size of their fart pipes, and the number of stickers on their fenders -- it's these guys who wouldn't want to get dirty changing a flat -- let alone changing their oil once in a while to protect turbos.
It's not their fault though -- They are children who've grown up with instant results/satisfaction. Their pop's get instant erections with the help of viagra, their moms get instant personality with the help of prozac, thier girlfriends get instant male attention with a tongue stud and *** implants, and they get instant bling with a set of 400lb. chrome dubs, a bottle of NAWWWWWZ and a $15 pack of stickers. Unfortunately, some of these remfs are now buying z32's and z33's and joining car clubs with names like NoCtUrNaL ReAliTy BoYz -- a 6 member club with only 2 things in common -- a lack of common sense and a love for the bLiNg!!
Later
DR
There's really nothing special to the z32's setup. The turbos are really stock off-the-shelf units. They are sized smaller to minimize lag. I get full boost at VERY low rpm's. The one thing you need to be assured of is that Nissan does not make a crappy engine. The VG35DETT can handle massive amounts of power -- and I expect the same (or better) from the VQ. The VQ maybe having the advantage of having a timing chain instead of the VG's belt. Both are interference engines, so my nod goes to the chain. I think you will see that when the aftermarket for the z33 & g35 matures there will be PLENTY of very powerful AND reliable recipies. These early adopters are beta testers -- maybe even alpha testers. Patience is a virtue here.
Oh yeah, my second post here but I am a regular on other boards. Started at tt.net/com as ZedHead in about 1998 or 1999 I think. I am now Dr Zedd on twinturbo.net and here. I don't like to post a lot here yet-- I just amuse myself with all the Z n00bs who have jumped on this fine machine without having any knowlege of z's (or even cars). They hear some advertising pitch and have to be one of the first to buy a grounding kit or some fancy car wax, or some other widget. Those posts are almost always started by the person selling the stuff -- funny to me.
350zDanny:
For every apex seal blowing rx7, I can point you to several on their original engines putting out crazy amounts of power. It seems as though with the rx7's it was more a roll of the dice on if you had a crap engine. Yes, the sequential turbo set up was very complicated. Cool concept, but very complicated (same type of setup as the poopra's). Yes the z32 has heat issues. But let me add that I drive in stop and go crap about 1.5 hours per day on I-85 in Atlanta -- Hot as h#ll and very little air flow over the radiator. In these conditions, my temp gauge has NEVER moved off it's usual mark -- doesnt matter if I'm standing still or doing 100mph. Internal temps are very good and very stable. Now my hood is a different story -- when It rains on it, the water steams away. I do not have my underhood insulation installed (haven't for about 40K miles now) and still have no problems.
As for a turbo needing attention, I'm not sure I agree with that 100%. I change my oil -- that's about it. I have used Mobile1 since I've owned the car. Sometimes I remember to change it at 3500 miles, sometimes I remember at 4 or 5K miles. A couple of times I've remembered closer to 7K miles. Air cooled Porsches with mobile1 are good for up to 12K miles between oil changes -- thats from the factory!
My car is a daily driver. The only shows I participate in are massive displays of power to corvette owners. I currently have all the panels in the back removed (to get to the rear shocks). It is currently coated with 2 weeks of rain/roadgrime/pollen. Most of you would chastise me for the attention I do NOT give my z -- yet I can turn my boost up to 15lbs and show most of you 350 owners just what you're missing. My personal philosophy is to keep the stereo OFF and pay attention to the beautiful sound of your machine -- the sweetest preventive maintenance I can think of. Ever research what year it was that Ferrari put radios in their best sports cars?? A ferrari engine at 7000 RPM is music enough. Too many young drivers are worried about the position of their seat, the color of their padded shoulder harnesses, the size of their fart pipes, and the number of stickers on their fenders -- it's these guys who wouldn't want to get dirty changing a flat -- let alone changing their oil once in a while to protect turbos.
It's not their fault though -- They are children who've grown up with instant results/satisfaction. Their pop's get instant erections with the help of viagra, their moms get instant personality with the help of prozac, thier girlfriends get instant male attention with a tongue stud and *** implants, and they get instant bling with a set of 400lb. chrome dubs, a bottle of NAWWWWWZ and a $15 pack of stickers. Unfortunately, some of these remfs are now buying z32's and z33's and joining car clubs with names like NoCtUrNaL ReAliTy BoYz -- a 6 member club with only 2 things in common -- a lack of common sense and a love for the bLiNg!!
Later
DR
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