500 HP Vortech
01-25-2008, 05:51 AM
#3
yes... need a option 1
T-trim > I would say around 15psi
option 2
smaller pully and cog pully
getting you 16psi, but then your maxing your blower and are going to encounter slippage more
option 3
spray
both will require return feul system
AND MY GODLY KNOWLEDGE OF ALL FI Z's AND THEIR RELIABILITY states
anything above 9psi on stock internals is past the safety treshold of your engine. no setup is 100% safe but things tend to accure more past 9psi. wich is around the 400whp range
T-trim > I would say around 15psi
option 2
smaller pully and cog pully
getting you 16psi, but then your maxing your blower and are going to encounter slippage more
option 3
spray
both will require return feul system
AND MY GODLY KNOWLEDGE OF ALL FI Z's AND THEIR RELIABILITY states
anything above 9psi on stock internals is past the safety treshold of your engine. no setup is 100% safe but things tend to accure more past 9psi. wich is around the 400whp range
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01-25-2008, 10:48 AM
#8
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Originally Posted by sentry65
510whp has been achieved before with a T-trim and a built engine
things are different now though. You can probably make more power with the right combination of parts
things are different now though. You can probably make more power with the right combination of parts
.
01-25-2008, 10:49 AM
#9
Originally Posted by jouvert00
Time to step up and claim that 500whp, your less tha 30whp away the T-trim or the Si-trim would put you there with the gtm idler pulley set up for good measure.Can't tell me it never crossed your mind .
.
01-25-2008, 11:02 AM
#10
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With the exception of the few faulty units i think vortech owners made some real headway finding ways to make more power.
B4 long 500rwhp would be had by more than a few.
B4 long 500rwhp would be had by more than a few.
01-25-2008, 11:06 AM
#11
I can probably just overdrive the SC-trim another step with the 34 cog pulley and hit 490whp.
But yeah, the Si-trim seems to be the way to go if I wanted to break 500whp.
The thought has crossed my mind, but it's also crossed my mind that I can barely use the power I have right now. I feel like I'm at a happy medium right now with reliability and power. I don't have any 500whp plans for my stock block.
Right now I'm focusing on paying off some debt. Blowing my engine over 20-30 more hp isn't going to help that. Besides, being right on the edge like that would absolutely stop me from ever going on a road course.
But yeah, the Si-trim seems to be the way to go if I wanted to break 500whp.
The thought has crossed my mind, but it's also crossed my mind that I can barely use the power I have right now. I feel like I'm at a happy medium right now with reliability and power. I don't have any 500whp plans for my stock block.
Right now I'm focusing on paying off some debt. Blowing my engine over 20-30 more hp isn't going to help that. Besides, being right on the edge like that would absolutely stop me from ever going on a road course.
01-25-2008, 11:25 AM
#12
My Vortech setup will be fully capable of 500whp when it is all said and done. My SC-trim will be able to flow enough air but it will be a big $$$ modification in order to do that. Belt slip will not be an issue either and a cog setup is not necessary to do it.
Last edited by Quamen; 01-25-2008 at 11:38 AM.
01-25-2008, 11:35 AM
#13
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Originally Posted by Quamen
My Vortech setup will be fully capable of 500whp when it is all said and done. My SC-trim will be able to flow enough air but it will a big $$$ modification in order to do that. Belt slip will not be an issue either and a cog setup is not necessary to do it.
01-25-2008, 12:48 PM
#16
my cog pulley set up was on Dereck's car running 26psi and passed the 500whp mark and not by much . It was dynoed on GTM's dyno I believe , and from what Ive seen on this site its a higher reading dynojet . He had a fully built motor with built free flowing heads and cams . I believe the bottle neck is the throttlebody to flow enough air . And once you reach a certain psi level parasitic loss from turning the blower starts to rob quite a bit of whp . So passing the 500whp mark on a regular basis with a SI or T-trim isnt going to be easy on a serp pulley system . It will be interesting to see how all the SI trims being installed come out .
01-25-2008, 01:04 PM
#17
him hitting 26 psi probably had more to do with reving to 7500 rpms and the engine no longer being efficient enough to swallow all the air in such quick intervals at 7500+ rpms.
It probably was a two-fold problem.
1. being the blower spinning faster pushes more air which raises psi
2. the engine being less able to digest the air at such high speeds which raises psi
Not to mention his blower was overspinning way beyond what a sane person should spin it to. Even if the setup worked, his blower would probably have lasted 100 miles before dying
I think there's a definite sweet spot around 6600-7000 rpms with hitting high boost and having reliability on both the engine and belts
I do think passing 500whp is completely possible with a modified serp pulley system. Definitely not the stock belt configuration though.
The REVUP kit has a good belt system, but there's probably no way to eliminate that topmost stretch of belt right before the jackshaft
...strange that the throttlebody doesn't seem to hold back turbos running 26 psi. Can the throttlebody really be causing severe loss in airflow?
IMO that's a small piece of the puzzle and doesn't prevent airflow from flowing through the engine near as much as the displacement, cams, heads, valves, and headers.
I think the main issue is cramming the air into the engine and it having enough time to take it in while being able to flow as much as possible at redline
I think GTM's dyno numbers are well within normal dynojet numbers. I have a whole photoshop file of all sorts of dynos and all of GTM cars fall pretty much in line with most respected dynojets like performance factory, altered atmosphere, intense motorsports, etc etc
It probably was a two-fold problem.
1. being the blower spinning faster pushes more air which raises psi
2. the engine being less able to digest the air at such high speeds which raises psi
Not to mention his blower was overspinning way beyond what a sane person should spin it to. Even if the setup worked, his blower would probably have lasted 100 miles before dying
I think there's a definite sweet spot around 6600-7000 rpms with hitting high boost and having reliability on both the engine and belts
I do think passing 500whp is completely possible with a modified serp pulley system. Definitely not the stock belt configuration though.
The REVUP kit has a good belt system, but there's probably no way to eliminate that topmost stretch of belt right before the jackshaft
...strange that the throttlebody doesn't seem to hold back turbos running 26 psi. Can the throttlebody really be causing severe loss in airflow?
IMO that's a small piece of the puzzle and doesn't prevent airflow from flowing through the engine near as much as the displacement, cams, heads, valves, and headers.
I think the main issue is cramming the air into the engine and it having enough time to take it in while being able to flow as much as possible at redline
I think GTM's dyno numbers are well within normal dynojet numbers. I have a whole photoshop file of all sorts of dynos and all of GTM cars fall pretty much in line with most respected dynojets like performance factory, altered atmosphere, intense motorsports, etc etc
Last edited by sentry65; 01-25-2008 at 01:27 PM.
01-25-2008, 01:25 PM
#18
Dont know if you know this . but the T-trim Dereck had and I now have has a race gear box and bearings in it . Over spinning it I dont think was or is going to be a problem .
Making power with a turbo is a bit different than making power with the SC set up . You seem to keep over looking the parasitic loss factor which is much more than what you think . It isnt much at lower psi levels , but becomes much more of a loss as psi levels build . We have had this conversation before . WHy do you think why all the articals you read on suppling fuel for a SCed car . Say to supply enough for 25% more fuel than actual whp . If you are making 500whp with a SC , you could be making upwards of 625hp at the crank .
Making power with a turbo is a bit different than making power with the SC set up . You seem to keep over looking the parasitic loss factor which is much more than what you think . It isnt much at lower psi levels , but becomes much more of a loss as psi levels build . We have had this conversation before . WHy do you think why all the articals you read on suppling fuel for a SCed car . Say to supply enough for 25% more fuel than actual whp . If you are making 500whp with a SC , you could be making upwards of 625hp at the crank .
01-25-2008, 01:41 PM
#19
no I didn't know that about the race bearings in that blower
"all" those articles you're referring to are that one article in Dsport where they're likely referring to a classic SC blower like a roots/twin screw, not a turbo compressor driven by a belt like the vortech.
However I do agree SC's obviously suck up more power than turbos
I also agree that high psi can start to get just stupid with a SC. The psi shouldn't be allowed to get too high or you'll run into problems
You're going to run into a wall eventually and obviously sooner than a turbo....given that the turbo isn't small
I'm just not sure I think the throttlebody is contributing a huge amount to a SC's parasitic loss though. Turbo and nitrous setups have that same throttlebody restriction to deal with and they do fine with that same bottleneck. I think the issue is still the SC and engine as far as the majority of the parasitic loss to worry about
IMO upping the displacement and head flow are the best ways to keep the peak psi under control so you don't have as much parasitic loss fighting against your blower.
reving super high I don't think is the answer at all for a SC.
There's more possibility the belts will slip/shred/break/lose teeth.
With this engine and a vortech SC, I think someone would make more power at 6600 rpms at 26 psi than they would at 7500+ rpms with 26 psi because the power drop off at 7500+ rpms starts to get pretty severe (even the HR motors) not to mention the engine temps will rise a lot more at 7500+rpms.
Reving super high with a turbo is a better idea because that extra parasitic loss isn't there and there's no worrying about belt issues
the possible exception is if you add a crapload of timing at 7500+ rpms to attempt to give the stroke more time to ignite and also cam and exhaust the crap out of the engine to the point that it has almost no low end power at all.
That might relieve stress on the blower and belts some, but the car is going to drive almost like a turbo car anyway with how the tq curve will be shaped.
"all" those articles you're referring to are that one article in Dsport where they're likely referring to a classic SC blower like a roots/twin screw, not a turbo compressor driven by a belt like the vortech.
However I do agree SC's obviously suck up more power than turbos
I also agree that high psi can start to get just stupid with a SC. The psi shouldn't be allowed to get too high or you'll run into problems
You're going to run into a wall eventually and obviously sooner than a turbo....given that the turbo isn't small
I'm just not sure I think the throttlebody is contributing a huge amount to a SC's parasitic loss though. Turbo and nitrous setups have that same throttlebody restriction to deal with and they do fine with that same bottleneck. I think the issue is still the SC and engine as far as the majority of the parasitic loss to worry about
IMO upping the displacement and head flow are the best ways to keep the peak psi under control so you don't have as much parasitic loss fighting against your blower.
reving super high I don't think is the answer at all for a SC.
There's more possibility the belts will slip/shred/break/lose teeth.
With this engine and a vortech SC, I think someone would make more power at 6600 rpms at 26 psi than they would at 7500+ rpms with 26 psi because the power drop off at 7500+ rpms starts to get pretty severe (even the HR motors) not to mention the engine temps will rise a lot more at 7500+rpms.
Reving super high with a turbo is a better idea because that extra parasitic loss isn't there and there's no worrying about belt issues
the possible exception is if you add a crapload of timing at 7500+ rpms to attempt to give the stroke more time to ignite and also cam and exhaust the crap out of the engine to the point that it has almost no low end power at all.
That might relieve stress on the blower and belts some, but the car is going to drive almost like a turbo car anyway with how the tq curve will be shaped.
Last edited by sentry65; 01-25-2008 at 02:19 PM.
01-25-2008, 02:19 PM
#20
like you guys have mentioned, 500rwhp will be attainable by some soon enough. But realistically for the money, why would you bother, besides to say you could?
For the money to get there, you might as well get a turbo kit. Both kits would need a built motor for any shred of reliablity. Jumping to a T-trim or maybe some sort of modd'ed E trim would easily surpass the price of a greddy kits, which are producing high 500 numbers on built motors.
Has anyone tried the GTM belt mod on the new style non-rev up pulley system? The new belt leayout uses a belt almost 14" shorter than the old pulley layout. (79.5 vs 93). Realistically some belt slip is prolly a good thing on a OEM internals
For the money to get there, you might as well get a turbo kit. Both kits would need a built motor for any shred of reliablity. Jumping to a T-trim or maybe some sort of modd'ed E trim would easily surpass the price of a greddy kits, which are producing high 500 numbers on built motors.
Has anyone tried the GTM belt mod on the new style non-rev up pulley system? The new belt leayout uses a belt almost 14" shorter than the old pulley layout. (79.5 vs 93). Realistically some belt slip is prolly a good thing on a OEM internals