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Utec or Haltech EMS?

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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 12:07 PM
  #41  
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MRG Has 0% in doing his own tuning BTW.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII

why would that be a big difference to you....the problem with giving full control is that you can get the same thing that happens with the AEM...people being dump trying to act as if they knew what they were doing it, messing up the tune and blowing engines and then blaming it on the EMS....
No sense in having full access if all the end user should be changing are small tuning changes, change boost level, launch rpm, antilag, and similar settings; which the proefi gives you the abilites to do.
If you think proefi claim its better because of the better hardware only then you are highly mistaken and talking more than your really know...you forgot about features that really matter...adaptive learning... direct fire ignition...true volumetric efficiency...oem quality hardware, etc.

I know you are going to be all hard on the haltech since you just spend good money on it and you will do anything you can to justify that but you should know more about the other options rather than just say "The selling point so far for the ProEFI seems to be that it can do this "better" based on a more advanced processor, which I'm still waiting to see proof of."
I hope you're not taking my statement as an attack, as usuall, but...

Actually, I simply weighed the pro's and cons of both and decided that the Haltech suited my needs better. Not only do I not live near an authorized tuner, but it seems next to impossible to get a ProEFI and no one outside of a select few shops has even seen one.

I see the Pro-EFI being marketed as a "set and forget" response. Adaptive Learning, here is how it is being described: "This unit has adaptive capbilities, meaning that it learns and adjusts on the fly." I'm still not seeing how this is different than any other standalone on the market. Feel free to prove me wrong, but it seems like they're just slapping a new name on an old feature and touting it as being revolutionary. The Haltech and FCON will adjust for changes in anything beyond changing injectors. Besides, in my own case if I make a large enough change to my setup, I'd be fine with going in or slightly adjusting the tune myself to account for it.

As far as arguing that it's better to not give the end user control, that's clearly arguable. If anyone considers being locked out of their own car a good feature then they obviously shouldn't be modifying their car to that extent anyway.

"OEM" Quality is subjective. I think the other units (haltech/fcon/motec) are quality enough for me. The other features such as the unit's ability to measure volumetric efficiency and direct fire ignition... show me someone that's actually taking advantage of this and how it directly effects their car in making safe and efficient power to the wheels.

No offense intended, but myself and others here need to see real world application of marketing hype, and how it will actually benefit the end user. So far I've just seen marketing hype and a bunch of people jumping on a bandwagon because the shop is hyping up features that are either nothing new, or too abstract for the average user to actually take advantage of anyway.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 12:20 PM
  #43  
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Another thing.. Where are all the Pro-EFI units being sold since it was released? Trust me, I'd LOVE to see some independent results and how the features improve drivability and power delivery. What I don't want to see is shop builds and reviews by someone who makes a profit selling them.



I think it all boils down to is: If you make a major change on your setup, would you rather have full control to adjust for them yourself, or would you rather place full trust in a computer to do it without even if you had to drive two states to get the base settings tweaked?
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 12:33 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by taurran
Another thing.. Where are all the Pro-EFI units being sold since it was released? Trust me, I'd LOVE to see some independent results and how the features improve drivability and power delivery. What I don't want to see is shop builds and reviews by someone who makes a profit selling them.
u could have been one if you jsut had waited a bit when you talked to chris.
and i dunno what you mean you don't wanna see shop builds, u mean you dont wanna see an intense thread on the unit? or you want to see a build by sound performance or what...? there already are customers running this unit latest is mazzoo and his 1pst place 08 HIN Z , or foreingsoda, or the supras already running the unit too.......you will probably soon see the OP too. (just mentioning some of the top of my head since i know you wont take my opinion)

Originally Posted by taurran
I think it all boils down to is: If you make a major change on your setup, would you rather have full control to adjust for them yourself, or would you rather place full trust in a computer to do it without even if you had to drive two states to get the base settings tweaked?
just so you know OEMS have been doing this for years now... they sell 1000s of cars with OEM EMS, do they self tune every single car? no ...
Also define what you mean by a "major change"..

if you are talking about exhausts, adding a plenum spacer... then you dont have to worry about it.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
u could have been one if you jsut had waited a bit when you talked to chris.
and i dunno what you mean you don't wanna see shop builds, u mean you dont wanna see an intense thread on the unit? or you want to see a build by sound performance or what...? there already are customers running this unit latest is mazzoo and his 1pst place 08 HIN Z , or foreingsoda, or the supras already running the unit too.......you will probably soon see the OP too. (just mentioning some of the top of my head since i know you wont take my opinion)

just so you know OEMS have been doing this for years now... they sell 1000s of cars with OEM EMS, do they self tune every single car? no ...
Also define what you mean by a "major change"..

if you are talking about exhausts, adding a plenum spacer... then you dont have to worry about it.
I wish some of those owners would come share their thoughts, especially after they've had a chance to experience it for a while. It always seems that new released EMS's come out with such huge hype and fanfare, then later when the luster wears off we start hearing of issues (remember the UTEC release?). Not saying that this will happen in the case of the Pro-EFI, but any kind of unbiased user feedback would be great at this point.

By "major change" I mean changing fuel injectors, installing a fuel return system from a stock fuel system, going from a stock to true dual 3" exhaust, installing a lower compression built motor or cams, changing turbo kits, swapping out larger turbochargers, etc. I'm thinking in that situation, you'd want the base settings or tune tweaked on whichever EMS you're running.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 02:31 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by taurran
Actually, I simply weighed the pro's and cons of both and decided that the Haltech suited my needs better. Not only do I not live near an authorized tuner, but it seems next to impossible to get a ProEFI and no one outside of a select few shops has even seen one.
the selected shop are the current dealers, i am sure it will grow as time goes on www.proefi.com check it here.

Originally Posted by taurran
I see the Pro-EFI being marketed as a "set and forget" response. Adaptive Learning, here is how it is being described: "This unit has adaptive capbilities, meaning that it learns and adjusts on the fly." I'm still not seeing how this is different than any other standalone on the market. Feel free to prove me wrong, but it seems like they're just slapping a new name on an old feature and touting it as being revolutionary. The Haltech and FCON will adjust for changes in anything beyond changing injectors. Besides, in my own case if I make a large enough change to my setup, I'd be fine with going in or slightly adjusting the tune myself to account for it.
here is what adaptive learning means with the ProEFI:
Adaptive Learning is a strategy used by O.E.M. automotive manufacturers to maintain long term tuning accuracy. This strategy allows for continuously changing climate conditions to be constantly compensated for by the ECU. This strategy is vastly different from closed loop type control systems. While Closed Loop and Adaptive Learning work together, with Closed loop systems, the system is always starting from the same point, so if you are 10% off on your base, then your closed loop system will always have to trim that 10% out every time it hits that point in the mapping. With adaptive learning, the ECU learns this 10% error, and changes the value in the map at that point. This allows for the closed loop system to work more effectively, keeping the Closed Loop system to minimal changes.

There are several strategies with the ProEFI ECU that incorporate Adaptive learning.

· Idle Control - Obtaining a proper Idle control on a warmed up engine is the easy part. The challenge arrives when that given amount of air required to obtain the desired Idle RPM changes. When the engine gets cold, the oil viscosity changes and the engine becomes harder to turn over, requiring more air to get the same idle RPM. So you now have varying base idle settings to obtain the same idle rpm under different conditions. While closed loop systems help with this condition, the errors vary greatly under the different conditions, making the closed loop system fluctuate more while trying to eliminate the error against the target. Incorporating Adaptive learning to the Idle control strategy allows for constant adjustments to the base idle tables. This means less idle fluctuation with changing temperatures, and less setup to “dial” in the idle control.

· Volumetric Efficiency table (Fuel mapping) -Adaptive Learning in the V.E. table keeps the Air/Fuel ratios dialed in under all weather conditions. This means that the need for constantly “tweaking” your tune up at different times of the year is a thing of the past. Like the O.E.M. ECU, the ProEFI ECU now performs this task automatically based upon targets the tuner enters.

· Boost Control –At a given valve opening, changing temperatures will result in changing boost pressures. To prevent cold temperature over boosting, closed loop systems are typically used. The turbo’s response from the waste gate opening and closing is very dynamic, and the closed loop systems can cause undesirable fluctuations in manifold pressure in trying to trim out any error against the target pressure. The cure for this is to eliminate as much error as possible, leaving very little for the closed loop system to correct for. The ProEFI ECU is constantly adapting these errors into the base table settings, keeping your boost targets dialed in regardless of outside temperature changes.

· Knock Control - The O.E.M.’s know that the quality of fuel a consumer puts in their vehicle can vary with seasons, and even day to day. To obtain the level of power that the O.E.M.’s are achieving in stock form they have to be fairly aggressive with compression ratio’s to get fuel efficiency and power levels up. Ignition timing becomes critical in making power and being able to prevent engine damage under varying fuel qualities. The O.E.M.’s use knock control to prevent engine damage and to trim the ignition tables to prevent further detonation. This is probably the most complex strategy incorporated by the ECU. The knock control system is constantly testing the knock threshold by adding timing little by little and “listening” to the knock sensor to determine what the optimal timing is for the fuel being used. The system then takes these values and puts them in trim tables and adapts to the changing octane requirements. ProEFI incorporates this strategy as well. While some aftermarket ECU’s knock control system is really only noise control. These systems look at a knock sensor


Originally Posted by taurran
As far as arguing that it's better to not give the end user control, that's clearly arguable. If anyone considers being locked out of their own car a good feature then they obviously shouldn't be modifying their car to that extent anyway.
i think you should be careful with what you re saying here, cause you are implying that everybody should be able to "tune" their own cars which is not the case, not sure why still this is an important feature to you, when you re not a tuner, you do not own a dyno, and neither do 99% of people running an aftermarket EMS. IF you are paying a shop 600$ 700$ to tune your car, why would you wanna mess that up??? if you thinking you are "improving it" then maybe you should have taken it else where...
Its a non point because dealers will have the last word when giving a fully unlocked ProEFI or not.... i am sure ..for example is Larry@SP sells something to a user who he knows can trust with making changes on a tune he will...otherwise an end user wont need to modify anything other than basic setting as i mentioned earlier.

Originally Posted by taurran
"OEM" Quality is subjective. I think the other units (haltech/fcon/motec) are quality enough for me.
Here it is not sujective because the ProEFI is a true OEM developed EMS. The ECU’s are built by an O.E. manufacturer, so all ecu are 100% tested for vibration, temperature, loading etc… BEFORE you install them into your vehicle. Pro EFI ECU’s are as reliable as the factory units you take out. No more being stranded on the side of the road, or waiting weeks or months to get and issue repaired with the confidence of rolling the dice.

I cannot speak for the other units though, but i dont doubt they are nice quality.

Originally Posted by taurran
The other features such as the unit's ability to measure volumetric efficiency and direct fire ignition... show me someone that's actually taking advantage of this and how it directly effects their car in making safe and efficient power to the wheels.
have you not seen the dynosheet? clean smooth spot on curves sae 0 smooothing......
Its all based on VE so any car tuned with proefi is taking advantage of it. So things like injector and pressure changes don’t have to be calculated and multiple maps changed, it’s all done in the background by simply entering your injector size and base fuel pressure. Actually knowing the injector size and fuel pressure, this allows us to make instantanious feedback changes to things like fuel pressure not staying constant, without relying on the O2 sensor for delayed information. Changing fuel type is as simple as entering the stoichiametric ratio for the fuel used.

Originally Posted by taurran
No offense intended, but myself and others here need to see real world application of marketing hype, and how it will actually benefit the end user. So far I've just seen marketing hype and a bunch of people jumping on a bandwagon because the shop is hyping up features that are either nothing new, or too abstract for the average user to actually take advantage of anyway.
interesting that you cant seem to understand "abstract" writing but yet you want your ems fully unlocked to you. Dont take this the wrong(cause i too dont understand it all) way cause all that stuff is not for the average person to know, just like the average person buying an aftermarket EMS doesnt need to know everythign that is going into tunning the ems, and that doesnt mean you shouldn't be modding as you said earlier .
ITs not all hype... all dynosheets posted with the proefi are available on the site, u are welcome to check the supra forums too to see the spras running the proefi, its not hype.

Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; Mar 24, 2008 at 02:38 PM.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 03:00 PM
  #47  
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I'm not here to bag on any EMS, nor am I here to nut hug one or the other. My experience so far with ProEFI is fairly unexplainable in the sense that it feels like I'm driving a stock car. Everything is just incredibly smooth. The normal end user will not have a need to tune all those advanced features. I don't really plan on even tuning the most basic features, which is available for me to tune. This is better left in the hands of a professional IMO, who does this EVERYDAY. I don't want something I poured massive amounts of money into to be messed around with someone like myself that is inexperienced with the software, or knows how to really tune a car.

So this is your real world, normal user application review thing, I guess. =)
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 03:21 PM
  #48  
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Some of us like to be able to tinker. And we take full responsibilty for a blown engine. For those of us like that, a locked EMS is just not good.

Finally, no matter how good a tuner is, he can't afford to spend the 20+ hours to get every single load point, from partial throttle to throttle lift, to just short of full throttle, etc... perfect. Or maybe it would be better to say the average consumerdoesn't want to pay for the 20_ hours of street and dyno tuning to get things perfect. A user unlocked EMS allows the end user, how has at least a basic knowledge of tuning to tweak a cell here, a cell there, just to get things perfect.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 03:39 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Alberto
Craig-I take it you like your Haltech?
?
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberto
?
Hmmmmmmmmm.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 04:14 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Dave 90TT
Some of us like to be able to tinker. And we take full responsibilty for a blown engine. For those of us like that, a locked EMS is just not good.

Finally, no matter how good a tuner is, he can't afford to spend the 20+ hours to get every single load point, from partial throttle to throttle lift, to just short of full throttle, etc... perfect. Or maybe it would be better to say the average consumerdoesn't want to pay for the 20_ hours of street and dyno tuning to get things perfect. A user unlocked EMS allows the end user, how has at least a basic knowledge of tuning to tweak a cell here, a cell there, just to get things perfect.

yeah dave, i guess that why you have features like adaptive learning and true VE base system...

Originally Posted by Alberto
?

lol did you jsut quote yourself? lol i think you are looking for an ovbious answer

Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; Mar 24, 2008 at 04:18 PM.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 04:20 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by foreignsoda
I'm not here to bag on any EMS, nor am I here to nut hug one or the other. My experience so far with ProEFI is fairly unexplainable in the sense that it feels like I'm driving a stock car. Everything is just incredibly smooth. The normal end user will not have a need to tune all those advanced features. I don't really plan on even tuning the most basic features, which is available for me to tune. This is better left in the hands of a professional IMO, who does this EVERYDAY. I don't want something I poured massive amounts of money into to be messed around with someone like myself that is inexperienced with the software, or knows how to really tune a car.

So this is your real world, normal user application review thing, I guess. =)

thanks
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 04:23 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
yeah dave, i guess that why you have features like adaptive learning and true VE base system...
::shrug:: You are more than welcome to limit yourself to a locked system. More power to you, if thats what you want.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave 90TT
::shrug:: You are more than welcome to limit yourself to a locked system. More power to you, if thats what you want.

if i knew what i was doing with all the tunning options pro efi has and Larry or Jason knew of it, i am sure i could maybe run the unlocked version.....
Plus what i need to chanbge....i am not locked to change change boost level, launch rpm, antilag, and similar settings.
Also, If you see the better tunes on this site by the top vendors, they do not need to get "tweaked" after they leave the shop, they running perfectly....maybe you are used to crappy tunes and you are always expecting that you need to "adjust" things when you leave the shop or you are more used to piggybacks where you are expected to have to tweak things out..... . I dont remember the last time you had to take a stock Z to get retuned (why i said this, its because of the capabilities of the stock ecu to adjust to every vehicle, temperature, elevation, etc.)...you are thinking of piggyback

Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; Mar 24, 2008 at 04:35 PM.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 04:41 PM
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Last I heard the Haltech does not have active knock control. This IMHO is a major thing for such a high quality and expensive unit not to have. I'd go UTEC just for this reason alone. If Haltech ever adds the active knock control then I will more than likely purchase one. Until then UTEC is just fine.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 04:45 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by mrg1981
Alright, so I'm down to the final stages of my build and I'm trying to decide if I want to go with the Utec or Haltech? Price is not a concern, just overall power, safety, drive ability, and tune quality.

Tim at Exact Dyno is tuning for me and does great work with the Utec, but he says the Haltech is a better unit and he has the new software for tuning it.

Any feedback on which option you'd recommend and why?
Thanks for stopping by today with Chris. Looks like Jason was able to go through all of the advantages of of Professional EFI with you -- as you're now going with that unit

Darren (thanks Jorge and Joey for their posts too)
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberto
Craig-I take it you like your Haltech?
It's not even that. This forum is just a platform for viral marketing and hype that I'd prefer to question the newest trend from time to time. I've never been here to sell a part to anyone (even a turbo kit), and never really intend to. Sometimes I'd just like to ask questions and play devils advocate.

Remember other fads that were hyped up on these forums that vendors made thousands on before anyone really knew anything about them? (ATI Procharger, Shielded CAS wires, Emanage Ultimate, Kinetix SSV, UTEC, JWT 530bb TT,Crawford Plenum, etc, etc)

People on this forum tend to take the sheep mentality for the most part. They'll spend thousands and thousands of dollars on things based on what a vendor or their group of fans tells them is great.

Will 95% of the people here know the difference between a standalone with "adaptive learning", and a traditional one with a good custom tune? I doubt it. Will 95% of the people on here spend thousands on a standalone because it's hyped up with fancy terms like "adaptive tuning"? Certainly. People forget that the vendors that are here to "inform" you about products are here for a reason - to make money off you.

I still say there's no replacement (yet) for a good custom tune, especially in a place like Florida where conditions rarely, if ever, change.

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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
if i knew what i was doing with all the tunning options pro efi has and Larry or Jason knew of it, i am sure i could maybe run the unlocked version.....
Plus what i need to chanbge....i am not locked to change change boost level, launch rpm, antilag, and similar settings.
Also, If you see the better tunes on this site by the top vendors, they do not need to get "tweaked" after they leave the shop, they running perfectly....maybe you are used to crappy tunes and you are always expecting that you need to "adjust" things when you leave the shop or you are more used to piggybacks where you are expected to have to tweak things out..... . I dont remember the last time you had to take a stock Z to get retuned (why i said this, its because of the capabilities of the stock ecu to adjust to every vehicle, temperature, elevation, etc.)...you are thinking of piggyback
You kinda talked in a circle on this one. You're saying that a professional "perfect" tune that doesn't need adjustment shouldn't need to be tweaked. However, the biggest selling point of the ProEFI is that it tweaks itself when you make changes to the setup.

As I stated earlier, the Haltech and FCON both adjust to tempurature, air density, etc. Any adjustment to the particular "vehicle" is made by the shop or individual who does the original tune. There's really no difference, as you pay for the original calibration (tune) and the EMS adjusts for smaller environmental and boost level changes.

I think people make tuning out to be exponentially more complicated than it really is. I find it amusing how people mystify it and make it such a profound art form. Trust me, if Bob's Mustang shop can tune high powered drag cars, then any educated individual can with enough knowledge.

The main difficulty in tuning is initial configuration of the numerous variables and settings on the EMS, and sorting out the initial fuel maps. With target AFR tuning, the computer even does most of the work for you to adjust injector pulse width to accurately achieve safe AFR's. From there, it's all about adjusting the correct timing levels to a point where the car exhibits zero knock.

Sure, that's a simplified version, but once the initial setup on an EMS is complete and the fuel map is correct, then it's really not difficult at all to manually "tweak" your tune on the street. With modern user-friendly GUI's, knock detection, and target AFR fuel maps, it's as easy as anyone could ask for. Just know your car's limits, study how the system works, and use plenty of self control.

Last edited by taurran; Mar 24, 2008 at 05:37 PM.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by taurran
It's not even that. This forum is just a platform for viral marketing and hype that I'd prefer to question the newest trend from time to time. I've never been here to sell a part to anyone (even a turbo kit), and never really intend to. Sometimes I'd just like to ask questions and play devils advocate.

Remember other fads that were hyped up on these forums that vendors made thousands on before anyone really knew anything about them? (ATI Procharger, Shielded CAS wires, Emanage Ultimate, Kinetix SSV, UTEC, JWT 530bb TT,Crawford Plenum, etc, etc)

People on this forum tend to take the sheep mentality for the most part. They'll spend thousands and thousands of dollars on things based on what a vendor or their group of fans tells them is great.

Will 95% of the people here know the difference between a standalone with "adaptive learning", and a traditional one with a good custom tune? I doubt it. Will 95% of the people on here spend thousands on a standalone because it's hyped up with fancy terms like "adaptive tuning"? Certainly. People forget that the vendors that are here to "inform" you about products are here for a reason - to make money off you.

I still say there's no replacement (yet) for a good custom tune, especially in a place like Florida where conditions rarely, if ever, change.
i couldnt agree more with you, many get pwnd by intrawbz lol... specially the part on a good tune is a good tune

Originally Posted by IntenseFab
48pin ecu


Here's the smoothing at 5


Do you see any difference with the smoothing at 0 then at 5? That's how a car should be tuned


you've seen me play devils advocate many times too....i know what you mean (still loling at those that said hks dli is a must)...
They said ProEFI was a myth and on the first thread they said i was probably ging to be another "dreamworks supercharger" thread..they also said it woudl take months or over a year to have the software done and many doubted when they said there would have a VQ with the proefi with in the time frame announced. I think all those things got answered well...
There are no 30 page threads of an unfinished product that is hyped with NO results to show for. Adaptive learning is not a "fancy name", its a feature thats available in top OEM cars already and its not being taken full advantage by an aftermarket ECU.

Originally Posted by taurran
You kinda talked in a circle on this one. You're saying that a professional "perfect" tune that doesn't need adjustment shouldn't need to be tweaked. However, the biggest selling point of the ProEFI is that it tweaks itself when you make changes to the setup.
I apologize for not making things clear
i refered to have to do manual "tweak" as in you you pushing your laptop keyboard to fix something after you pay money to have a shop tuen the car.....no about having the actual unit do this smoothly for you by being dialed to all sensors on the engine and adjusting to true VE...
Youve talked to chris@sp about the unit already, i though you knew all this stuff
Originally Posted by SoundPerformance

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#3) These units have adaptive learning for timing, fuel, boost , idle speed etc control..... However do not mistake this for a completely self tuning unit. There is no such thing. I highly recommend that initially the car is placed on a dyno with a competent tuner behind the wheel. Once the initial tune is done.... all the rest (temperature, elevation, humidity etc changes, small octane changes, and even such things as a turbo swap, cam swap, intake manifold swap) will be adaptively learned by the ECU.


For example we just installed the unit in a supra at our shop with a calibration from a totally different supra. We only made a few changes to the calibration.... injector size and fuel pressure and we were up and running. Within 2 pulls on the dyno we were making complete full throttle pulls that were spot on with the air fuels that we were commanding!! However the first 2 pulls did require enough changes to some settings that without me lifting, would have been hazardous to the engine.

I do feel that once we have enough seat time with setting up calibrations for various setups that we will be able to supply a map that will require very little tuning if any at all. Like every other aftemarket ECU I believe that the initial tune and setup should be done by a professional tuner.... however unlike any other aftermarket computer, once this is done you will never need to tweak the computer again.

Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; Mar 24, 2008 at 05:54 PM.
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Old Mar 24, 2008 | 05:48 PM
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taurran
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
i couldnt agree more with you, many get pwnd by intrawbz lol... specially the part on a good tune is a good tune

you've seen me play devils advocate many times too....i know what you mean (still loling at those that said hks dli is a must)...
They said ProEFI was a myth and on the first thread they said i was probably ging to be another "dreamworks supercharger" thread..they also said it woudl take months or over a year to have the software done and many doubted when they said there would have a VQ with the proefi with in the time frame announced. I think all those things got answered well...
There are no 30 page threads of an unfinished product that is hyped with NO results to show for. Adaptive learning is not a "fancy name", its a feature thats available in top OEM cars already and its not being taken full advantage by an aftermarket ECU.
It's just a fancy name to me if I can get a good base tune at a shop and have the EMS adjust to conditions and boost levels based on the aggressiveness of the base map. I won't miss any sort of adaptive learning when my EMS already adjusts but doesn't overwrite what my tuner or myself input.

I didn't miss those jabs in your post, either. Are you marketing the ProEFI just because you love it so much?
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