I'm confused about this whole fuel system upgrade...
High/Low impedance has nothing to do with fuel delivery.
From what I've experienced, the "stage 2" upgrade isn't required, either. My car and many others are making well more than 500whp and delivering stead fuel with a warlboro 255lph pump and stage 1 fuel system.
From what I've experienced, the "stage 2" upgrade isn't required, either. My car and many others are making well more than 500whp and delivering stead fuel with a warlboro 255lph pump and stage 1 fuel system.
I have the VPro, with HKS 1000cc injectors, and CJM Stage 2, I made 550rwhp on my stock block with no fuel issues.
We have done many VPro/HKS 1000cc injector combos with no issues.
-George
GTM
We have done many VPro/HKS 1000cc injector combos with no issues.
-George
GTM
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Originally Posted by leeboyNY
This is a little off topic, but I thought it was interesting, so I'll share this with you guys. Tuner made an interesting change to the HKS 1000cc low impedance injectors. He did NOT like how F con v pro was using its built-in resistors to drive the low impedance fuel injectors. He said he saw too many F con v pros get fried because resistors within a F con v pro get so hot. So, he ripped out a resistor pack from a racked GTR on his yard and turned off the low impedance driver of the f con v pro. He mentioned that Motec has an internal temp sensor, so it controls its own heat, but F con v pro doesn't. Therefore more heat problem with F con...
WAIT ONE MINUTE !!!....You are telling us that your tuner is saying that your warlboro 255LPH single pump is not enough to run 550whp
A method that has been used and proven my many tuners
I for one have never had a problem or heard of one so far. I have been using the Fcon and HKS 1000cc injectors for almost a year now with not so much as a sneeze with OVER 550whp. The only reason I am going to twin pumps is because my plans are to add another 100whp to the car.
And how can you trust feedback from an installer about the Fcon & HKS injectors that cannot event get 550whp on a single pump
Something that is the norm and is done on a daily basis over here ???Something smells
Originally Posted by leeboyNY
Different tuning methodologies and cultures are always hard to comprehend..
Last edited by XKR; Apr 23, 2008 at 09:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by leeboyNY
So, my Z has been in a tuning shop for a week now getting tuned... I received a phone call from my tuner yesterday that I'm gonna have to upgrade to a twin fuel pump setup. My goal is about 550+whp with 14~16psi on a pump gas. It's a pretty realistic goal and I thought my fuel setup was good enough for the goal.. Here is my fuel setup: HKS 1000cc injectors, CJM stage 1 fuel return system, Walbro 255lph fuel pump.
I went with this setup because most of the shop built 550+whp vehicles have similar setup. So, what gives??? I know tuners have different safety margins and mapping philosophies, but the tuner told me my fuel setup is not even close. He told me that fuel pressure starts to drop at 8~9psi on a high speed run..
This totally throws me through the loop...
Now, this tuner was formally trained in Japan and he tunes variety of dragster GTRs and drift competition purpose silvias here in Korea. So, I trust his skills and he thoroughly checked out the hardwares for a week before he proceeded with the mapping sessions. So, the equipment/installation failure is out of the equation.
I contacted Charles at CJM to order the twin pump assembly. I hope this fixes my problem. Please hurry Charles!
This is a little off topic, but I thought it was interesting, so I'll share this with you guys. Tuner made an interesting change to the HKS 1000cc low impedance injectors. He did NOT like how F con v pro was using its built-in resistors to drive the low impedance fuel injectors. He said he saw too many F con v pros get fried because resistors within a F con v pro get so hot. So, he ripped out a resistor pack from a racked GTR on his yard and turned off the low impedance driver of the f con v pro. He mentioned that Motec has an internal temp sensor, so it controls its own heat, but F con v pro doesn't. Therefore more heat problem with F con...
I went with this setup because most of the shop built 550+whp vehicles have similar setup. So, what gives??? I know tuners have different safety margins and mapping philosophies, but the tuner told me my fuel setup is not even close. He told me that fuel pressure starts to drop at 8~9psi on a high speed run..
This totally throws me through the loop... Now, this tuner was formally trained in Japan and he tunes variety of dragster GTRs and drift competition purpose silvias here in Korea. So, I trust his skills and he thoroughly checked out the hardwares for a week before he proceeded with the mapping sessions. So, the equipment/installation failure is out of the equation.
I contacted Charles at CJM to order the twin pump assembly. I hope this fixes my problem. Please hurry Charles!
This is a little off topic, but I thought it was interesting, so I'll share this with you guys. Tuner made an interesting change to the HKS 1000cc low impedance injectors. He did NOT like how F con v pro was using its built-in resistors to drive the low impedance fuel injectors. He said he saw too many F con v pros get fried because resistors within a F con v pro get so hot. So, he ripped out a resistor pack from a racked GTR on his yard and turned off the low impedance driver of the f con v pro. He mentioned that Motec has an internal temp sensor, so it controls its own heat, but F con v pro doesn't. Therefore more heat problem with F con...
What can I say, my bugger is a gas-a- holic
You must trust your tuner, or else you shouldn't be there, in the first place.
All the best
G
Originally Posted by leeboyNY
...
This is a little off topic, but I thought it was interesting, so I'll share this with you guys. Tuner made an interesting change to the HKS 1000cc low impedance injectors. He did NOT like how F con v pro was using its built-in resistors to drive the low impedance fuel injectors. He said he saw too many F con v pros get fried because resistors within a F con v pro get so hot. So, he ripped out a resistor pack from a racked GTR on his yard and turned off the low impedance driver of the f con v pro. He mentioned that Motec has an internal temp sensor, so it controls its own heat, but F con v pro doesn't. Therefore more heat problem with F con...
This is a little off topic, but I thought it was interesting, so I'll share this with you guys. Tuner made an interesting change to the HKS 1000cc low impedance injectors. He did NOT like how F con v pro was using its built-in resistors to drive the low impedance fuel injectors. He said he saw too many F con v pros get fried because resistors within a F con v pro get so hot. So, he ripped out a resistor pack from a racked GTR on his yard and turned off the low impedance driver of the f con v pro. He mentioned that Motec has an internal temp sensor, so it controls its own heat, but F con v pro doesn't. Therefore more heat problem with F con...
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
It varies from system to system, just because a single 255 lph pump works for most systems does not necessarily mean that it will work for your particular setup. With my setup it would seem that a 255 lph walboro would suffice, as that was the case with another Z which has exactly the same engine upgrades as mine. However, when we began tuning my car, it was running extremely lean and the 255 had maxed out. And, like you I had to install the dual pump setup; and my injectors are not even as large as your 1000 cc injectors.
What can I say, my bugger is a gas-a- holic
You must trust your tuner, or else you shouldn't be there, in the first place.
All the best
G
What can I say, my bugger is a gas-a- holic
You must trust your tuner, or else you shouldn't be there, in the first place.
All the best
G
QUESTIONS !!! ???
1) At what whp did you start running lean?
2) What size injectors??
3) Who tuned your car ??
Your statement "and my injectors are not even as large as your 1000 cc injectors" looks like your lean issues was more related to your injectors and not with the 255.
A bench mark has already been set with the 255lph .... I have not seen any info on here about the 255lph not being enough to run 550hp. The OP has stated that he started running lean at 8~9 psi's...you think thats normal?? And you say trust your tuner?? I say change your tuner
Originally Posted by rcdash
Is this a design flaw in the FCON or the injectors? Is this claim founded/proven? This is the first I've ever heard of this and I find it odd that HKS would not address a serious issue between two of their top of the line offerings.
Last edited by XKR; Apr 23, 2008 at 11:08 AM.
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All I stated was that systems vary from one to the other. Furthermore, I have no idea what the VQ35DE or HR manufactured for the Korean market is like.
Do you?
It is apparent, however, that emission controls are different. Furthermore, I would not be surprised if variations exist with the ECU management for Korea compared to those bound for the US; and these are only some of the differences that exist between the different markets.
Case in point, Nissan took issue to European dealers importing GT-R/s meant for the Japanese market to Europe; there were even fierce threats of lawsuits.......I can only imagine why?
It is not important who my engine builder or tuner is, the point I am making is size of injectors alone does not decide whether a system will run lean or rich.
All I am saying is it is impossible to accurately analyze or diagnose an internal combustion engine without knowing some basic facts endemic to the region, and without having the auto in your hands. Korea is 5000 miles away.
All anyone can share from a distance is their/your own personal experience; and that my fellow enthusiast is not written in stone. You speak of benchmarks, how do you define the term, who’s benchmark; at the end of the day it is all relative.
The only way you can be certain that you are correct in your assumptions, or anyone for that matter, you will have to either fly the auto to the US, or fly to Korea, go over the setup with the tuner to understand what is really involved.
To tell someone 5000 miles away to change his tuner is not an answer. Who best knows the tuner, Lee or us playing with the keyboard??!!
My specific setup and my engine builder/tuner shall be reveled to you, soon enough.
Truly, I am surprised that you made that statement above only based upon my injectors and fuel pump.
No one can say with absolute certainty what were the specific causes/cause for the engine failures that have been surfacing online lately, except by the people responsible for the setup; but definitely not by those who only have access to the keyboard.
I for one, would hope that Lee would keep us updated about the built and final end-result. It would be most interesting, but not necessary, if the tuner would share with us about Korean 350Z/s
Do you?
It is apparent, however, that emission controls are different. Furthermore, I would not be surprised if variations exist with the ECU management for Korea compared to those bound for the US; and these are only some of the differences that exist between the different markets.
Case in point, Nissan took issue to European dealers importing GT-R/s meant for the Japanese market to Europe; there were even fierce threats of lawsuits.......I can only imagine why?
It is not important who my engine builder or tuner is, the point I am making is size of injectors alone does not decide whether a system will run lean or rich.
All I am saying is it is impossible to accurately analyze or diagnose an internal combustion engine without knowing some basic facts endemic to the region, and without having the auto in your hands. Korea is 5000 miles away.
All anyone can share from a distance is their/your own personal experience; and that my fellow enthusiast is not written in stone. You speak of benchmarks, how do you define the term, who’s benchmark; at the end of the day it is all relative.
The only way you can be certain that you are correct in your assumptions, or anyone for that matter, you will have to either fly the auto to the US, or fly to Korea, go over the setup with the tuner to understand what is really involved.
To tell someone 5000 miles away to change his tuner is not an answer. Who best knows the tuner, Lee or us playing with the keyboard??!!
My specific setup and my engine builder/tuner shall be reveled to you, soon enough.
Originally Posted by XKR
QUESTIONS !!! ???
1) At what whp did you start running lean?
2) What size injectors??
3) Who tuned your car ??
Your statement "and my injectors are not even as large as your 1000 cc injectors" looks like your lean issues was more related to your injectors and not with the 255.
A bench mark has already been set with the 255lph .... I have not seen any info on here about the 255lph not being enough to run 550hp. The OP has stated that he started running lean at 8~9 psi's...you think thats normal?? And you say trust your tuner?? I say change your tuner
1) At what whp did you start running lean?
2) What size injectors??
3) Who tuned your car ??
Your statement "and my injectors are not even as large as your 1000 cc injectors" looks like your lean issues was more related to your injectors and not with the 255.
A bench mark has already been set with the 255lph .... I have not seen any info on here about the 255lph not being enough to run 550hp. The OP has stated that he started running lean at 8~9 psi's...you think thats normal?? And you say trust your tuner?? I say change your tuner
No one can say with absolute certainty what were the specific causes/cause for the engine failures that have been surfacing online lately, except by the people responsible for the setup; but definitely not by those who only have access to the keyboard.
I for one, would hope that Lee would keep us updated about the built and final end-result. It would be most interesting, but not necessary, if the tuner would share with us about Korean 350Z/s
Originally Posted by leeboyNY
I went with this setup because most of the shop built 550+whp vehicles have similar setup. So, what gives??? I know tuners have different safety margins and mapping philosophies, but the tuner told me my fuel setup is not even close. He told me that fuel pressure starts to drop at 8~9psi on a high speed run..
This totally throws me through the loop... .
Originally Posted by XKR
WAIT ONE MINUTE !!!....You are telling us that your tuner is saying that your warlboro 255LPH single pump is not enough to run 550whp
A method that has been used and proven my many tuners
I for one have never had a problem or heard of one so far. I have been using the Fcon and HKS 1000cc injectors for almost a year now with not so much as a sneeze with OVER 550whp. The only reason I am going to twin pumps is because my plans are to add another 100whp to the car.
And how can you trust feedback from an installer about the Fcon & HKS injectors that cannot event get 550whp on a single pump
Something that is the norm and is done on a daily basis over here ???Something smells
Maybe true.....but I think its more like he is not familar with this set up. like you said ,they build race cars...and in that platform...there is no such thing as 'OverKill". I think your best bet is to contact one of the good shops over here and get better info than you seem to be getting.
Yes, he is NOT familiar with this setup since I'm the first guy ever to push the Z to the limit in Korea. Perhaps knowing this, this tuner does not want to risk his reputation by tuning something that he is not familiar with. I told him numerous times that American tuning shops use the same fuel setup as mine to achieve 550whp, but that doesn't seem to make him trust my setup.
Korean tuning community isn't that big, so we pretty much know the main players in the game. So, if one messes up, everybody's in a hurry to talk him down and bury him alive
(I see this happening in this forum as well..
) I already put my bet on him... can't withdraw... so I might as well get him what he demands and go from there... You guys in the states should be thankful for having so many resources and passionate enthusiasts who have already walk the uncharted territory..
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Originally Posted by leeboyNY
Yes, he is NOT familiar with this setup since I'm the first guy ever to push the Z to the limit in Korea. Perhaps knowing this, this tuner does not want to risk his reputation by tuning something that he is not familiar with. I told him numerous times that American tuning shops use the same fuel setup as mine to achieve 550whp, but that doesn't seem to make him trust my setup.
Korean tuning community isn't that big, so we pretty much know the main players in the game. So, if one messes up, everybody's in a hurry to talk him down and bury him alive (I see this happening in this forum as well..) I already put my bet on him... can't withdraw... so I might as well get him what he demands and go from there... You guys in the states should be thankful for having so many resources and passionate enthusiasts who have already walk the uncharted territory..
Korean tuning community isn't that big, so we pretty much know the main players in the game. So, if one messes up, everybody's in a hurry to talk him down and bury him alive
(I see this happening in this forum as well..) I already put my bet on him... can't withdraw... so I might as well get him what he demands and go from there... You guys in the states should be thankful for having so many resources and passionate enthusiasts who have already walk the uncharted territory..I understand now... But you should not have to be made to pay extra for his pride. You said that you plan to go to 650 whp....so i guess there is no harm to the wallet then.
The Fcon and the HKS 1000cc works perfect on my setup....so I am sure you will have the same results...but dont let them mess with the internals of the Fcon
I agree....we in the US are lucky to have the tuners that we have. I love the VQ platform not because of the car itself...but because of the support and the following that it has.
I wish you the best of luck with your VQ
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
All I stated was that systems vary from one to the other. Furthermore, I have no idea what the VQ35DE or HR manufactured for the Korean market is like.
Do you?
It is apparent, however, that emission controls are different. Furthermore, I would not be surprised if variations exist with the ECU management for Korea compared to those bound for the US; and these are only some of the differences that exist between the different markets.
Case in point, Nissan took issue to European dealers importing GT-R/s meant for the Japanese market to Europe; there were even fierce threats of lawsuits.......I can only imagine why?
It is not important who my engine builder or tuner is, the point I am making is size of injectors alone does not decide whether a system will run lean or rich.
All I am saying is it is impossible to accurately analyze or diagnose an internal combustion engine without knowing some basic facts endemic to the region, and without having the auto in your hands. Korea is 5000 miles away.
All anyone can share from a distance is their/your own personal experience; and that my fellow enthusiast is not written in stone. You speak of benchmarks, how do you define the term, who’s benchmark; at the end of the day it is all relative.
The only way you can be certain that you are correct in your assumptions, or anyone for that matter, you will have to either fly the auto to the US, or fly to Korea, go over the setup with the tuner to understand what is really involved.
To tell someone 5000 miles away to change his tuner is not an answer. Who best knows the tuner, Lee or us playing with the keyboard??!!
My specific setup and my engine builder/tuner shall be reveled to you, soon enough.
Truly, I am surprised that you made that statement above only based upon my injectors and fuel pump.
No one can say with absolute certainty what were the specific causes/cause for the engine failures that have been surfacing online lately, except by the people responsible for the setup; but definitely not by those who only have access to the keyboard.
I for one, would hope that Lee would keep us updated about the built and final end-result. It would be most interesting, but not necessary, if the tuner would share with us about Korean 350Z/s
Do you?
It is apparent, however, that emission controls are different. Furthermore, I would not be surprised if variations exist with the ECU management for Korea compared to those bound for the US; and these are only some of the differences that exist between the different markets.
Case in point, Nissan took issue to European dealers importing GT-R/s meant for the Japanese market to Europe; there were even fierce threats of lawsuits.......I can only imagine why?
It is not important who my engine builder or tuner is, the point I am making is size of injectors alone does not decide whether a system will run lean or rich.
All I am saying is it is impossible to accurately analyze or diagnose an internal combustion engine without knowing some basic facts endemic to the region, and without having the auto in your hands. Korea is 5000 miles away.
All anyone can share from a distance is their/your own personal experience; and that my fellow enthusiast is not written in stone. You speak of benchmarks, how do you define the term, who’s benchmark; at the end of the day it is all relative.
The only way you can be certain that you are correct in your assumptions, or anyone for that matter, you will have to either fly the auto to the US, or fly to Korea, go over the setup with the tuner to understand what is really involved.
To tell someone 5000 miles away to change his tuner is not an answer. Who best knows the tuner, Lee or us playing with the keyboard??!!
My specific setup and my engine builder/tuner shall be reveled to you, soon enough.
Truly, I am surprised that you made that statement above only based upon my injectors and fuel pump.
No one can say with absolute certainty what were the specific causes/cause for the engine failures that have been surfacing online lately, except by the people responsible for the setup; but definitely not by those who only have access to the keyboard.
I for one, would hope that Lee would keep us updated about the built and final end-result. It would be most interesting, but not necessary, if the tuner would share with us about Korean 350Z/s
The guy states that he is running lean at 8~9 psi's...and this is your response.....even after he states that he is using the Fcon and HKS 1000cc injectors
I agree that there maybe something else wrong, but for his tuner to tell him that he needs twins when even GTM and other have stated that there is something else wrong and that the single is good enough....
Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
It varies from system to system, just because a single 255 lph pump works for most systems does not necessarily mean that it will work for your particular setup. With my setup it would seem that a 255 lph walboro would suffice, as that was the case with another Z which has exactly the same engine upgrades as mine. However, when we began tuning my car, it was running extremely lean and the 255 had maxed out. And, like you I had to install the dual pump setup; and my injectors are not even as large as your 1000 cc injectors.G
You d@mn right he should get another tuner. I could under if he was at least up to 14~15 PSI''s running lean.
Last edited by XKR; Apr 23, 2008 at 06:28 PM.
Originally Posted by Zivman
for what it's worth.... on the build my buddy and I just finished up, we are using the base APS fuel system and upgraded to 600cc deatschwerk injectors. Tuning isn't 100% complete, but as of right now, 15 - 15.5 psi on the base APS TT setup seems to be no issue for our tuner
Last edited by leeboyNY; Apr 23, 2008 at 06:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by leeboyNY
That's pretty nice! See, this is what I'm talking about.. Enthusiasts who are not afraid to test the limits... I'm gonna let my tuner have what he wants this time around(twin pump), but once he gets familiar/comfortable with my Z, I plan to push my tuner to his limits...
Sounds good.... keep us updated
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Originally Posted by leeboyNY
So, my Z has been in a tuning shop for a week now getting tuned... I received a phone call from my tuner yesterday that I'm gonna have to upgrade to a twin fuel pump setup. My goal is about 550+whp with 14~16psi on a pump gas. It's a pretty realistic goal and I thought my fuel setup was good enough for the goal.. Here is my fuel setup: HKS 1000cc injectors, CJM stage 1 fuel return system, Walbro 255lph fuel pump.
I went with this setup because most of the shop built 550+whp vehicles have similar setup. So, what gives??? I know tuners have different safety margins and mapping philosophies, but the tuner told me my fuel setup is not even close. He told me that fuel pressure starts to drop at 8~9psi on a high speed run.. This totally throws me through the loop...
Now, this tuner was formally trained in Japan and he tunes variety of dragster GTRs and drift competition purpose silvias here in Korea. So, I trust his skills and he thoroughly checked out the hardwares for a week before he proceeded with the mapping sessions. So, the equipment/installation failure is out of the equation.
I contacted Charles at CJM to order the twin pump assembly. I hope this fixes my problem. Please hurry Charles!
This is a little off topic, but I thought it was interesting, so I'll share this with you guys. Tuner made an interesting change to the HKS 1000cc low impedance injectors. He did NOT like how F con v pro was using its built-in resistors to drive the low impedance fuel injectors. He said he saw too many F con v pros get fried because resistors within a F con v pro get so hot. So, he ripped out a resistor pack from a racked GTR on his yard and turned off the low impedance driver of the f con v pro. He mentioned that Motec has an internal temp sensor, so it controls its own heat, but F con v pro doesn't. Therefore more heat problem with F con...
I went with this setup because most of the shop built 550+whp vehicles have similar setup. So, what gives??? I know tuners have different safety margins and mapping philosophies, but the tuner told me my fuel setup is not even close. He told me that fuel pressure starts to drop at 8~9psi on a high speed run..
This totally throws me through the loop... Now, this tuner was formally trained in Japan and he tunes variety of dragster GTRs and drift competition purpose silvias here in Korea. So, I trust his skills and he thoroughly checked out the hardwares for a week before he proceeded with the mapping sessions. So, the equipment/installation failure is out of the equation.
I contacted Charles at CJM to order the twin pump assembly. I hope this fixes my problem. Please hurry Charles!
This is a little off topic, but I thought it was interesting, so I'll share this with you guys. Tuner made an interesting change to the HKS 1000cc low impedance injectors. He did NOT like how F con v pro was using its built-in resistors to drive the low impedance fuel injectors. He said he saw too many F con v pros get fried because resistors within a F con v pro get so hot. So, he ripped out a resistor pack from a racked GTR on his yard and turned off the low impedance driver of the f con v pro. He mentioned that Motec has an internal temp sensor, so it controls its own heat, but F con v pro doesn't. Therefore more heat problem with F con...
Does the statement indicate a lean situation......absolutely not
Does the statement indicate a below norm pressure.....absolutely not
All Charles is saying is he noticed a variance in pressure at different load situations, and he is not confident that under extreme loads that the variance might get even wider.
Heat is the one key factor that is the root cause of most engine failures, if not all; turbo charging under heavy loads produces high heat; effectively dispersing that heat is the key.
Do not misunderstand that I am saying that you are wrong; my point is that based on lee's post it is not sufficient to establish that Charles does not know what he is doing; that is all, nothing personal.
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
"He told me that fuel pressure starts to drop at 8~9psi on a high speed run.." may be a clear description to you; but to me as it is too vague. We do not even know, under what environmental conditions that this anomaly registers. What was lost in the translation is another story.
Does the statement indicate a lean situation......absolutely not
Does the statement indicate a below norm pressure.....absolutely not
All Charles is saying is he noticed a variance in pressure at different load situations, and he is not confident that under extreme loads that the variance might get even wider.
Heat is the one key factor that is the root cause of most engine failures, if not all; turbo charging under heavy loads produces high heat; effectively dispersing that heat is the key.
Do not misunderstand that I am saying that you are wrong; my point is that based on lee's post it is not sufficient to establish that Charles does not know what he is doing; that is all, nothing personal.
Does the statement indicate a lean situation......absolutely not
Does the statement indicate a below norm pressure.....absolutely not
All Charles is saying is he noticed a variance in pressure at different load situations, and he is not confident that under extreme loads that the variance might get even wider.
Heat is the one key factor that is the root cause of most engine failures, if not all; turbo charging under heavy loads produces high heat; effectively dispersing that heat is the key.
Do not misunderstand that I am saying that you are wrong; my point is that based on lee's post it is not sufficient to establish that Charles does not know what he is doing; that is all, nothing personal.
I hear you......
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Originally Posted by phunk
just for clarification, I am charles, but I am not the tuner of that car... im just simply the guy who sells fuel system parts!
BTW..thanks for getting my twins to FP on schedule......
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