Motormouth

iTrader: (44)

with the amount these cats are paying for their engine, would that normally include a blueprint or would it drastically increase the cost?

all my go kart engines got balanced and blueprinted when we started fresh from a new yamaha block. we are talking about a 1 piston 2 stroke engine and that alone costs over 1k+engine+assembly.

I know basically every muscle car it was like a balance and blueprint bukake for the built motors. seems logical that for the amount of dime people are dropping that would be an excellent idea. and I never really thought about it's conspicuous abscence in this market.

good eye.

go-fast

there can be different levels of blueprint to suit individual needs,price varies by shop but on big dollar builds you go all out.if some one advertised "balanced and blueprinted" then that is what you should have recieved.mapping 2-stoke engines is a totally different animal(something i also do)and huge hp gains can be had by properly mapping the motor.price on this type of work is all over the place and depends on who is doing the work.your price listed is about average.short block blueprinting for a 3.5 would be around 8 hrs,so add hrly rate to that and you have a good idea what to expect.it's a small price to pay for the information it provides and if a failed motor's math doesn't jive,you know exactly who to talk to.again...if someone sold you a blueprinted motor you should have access to this info,if you don't you probably got hosed.builders throw these terms around to suggest that you are getting more than you really are,but when asked suddenly go mute.....notice the silence?

Motormouth

iTrader: (44)

it just seems like 25k is about the level I would consider 'big build' enough to have this sort of thing done, but I was thinking it would be like 5k by itself to get blueprinted... that is a huge chunk when most people don't even know what it is or why they want it. and I am sure you know the bulk of them getting in never thinking about the negative possibilites... they all think thier motor is gonna last forever. only the guys that have had failures seem to take pause in that thought. but I am generalizing as well.

go-fast

anything beyond o.e. rebuild should be blueprinted,afterall performance can not be gained effectively if you don't know the changes you made or the current state of your parts.how do you move foward if you don't know where you have been?

fstrnldr

iTrader: (4)

no but you would see things like broken "oil squirters," rings that are not filed square, which is what i assume was implied by the hand filed ring comment, and of course the damage to bearings and cylinder walls resulting from improper clearance.

Like i said in my first post, while you obviously won't be able to see everything, there are some things that even a picture on the internet would help to determine how the damage happened.

Slightly off the topic, but my other question is why is a racing product expected to be warrantied at all? i know this sounds harsh to those putting out the money for this stuff, but there is a reason the actual vehicle manufacturers void warranties because of mods. If you are using something in a competition type situation, then you are pushing an engine/vehicle to the limit, who in there right minds would warranty this situation? Read the actual warranty on some of the products on the market, my absolute favorite was Toda, i used their products (w/ great success) in some past builds, and they pretty much flat out say if it brakes you're screwed, purchase a new one, regardless of when or how it happens, even if it comes out of the box that way.

go-fast

i agree with most of your post,but i don't know if this is a warranty type issue,if a large shop like gtm is not using a ring grinder or properly setting end gap it amounts to consumer fraud or gross incompetence.from what i have read in the third party report so far this motor was assembled with all the care of a jasper engine(bad),and apparently priced like a one off custom motor.

Motormouth

iTrader: (44)

The warranties are for material/manufacturing defects. as you stated, you can tell the cause of failure upon inspection and while toda might not, it should be welcomed that a shop would take responsibility for it's errors.

in the case of this engine, I think it was also a non-start... like he never even got to drive the car (from his one post, I have no knowledge otherwise).

shops on this forum must hate you, lol.

civic4982

iTrader: (9)

I seriously doubt that any of these engines on the forums are built and blueprinted to any scientific standard or proper method of data collection that would allow retrospective analysis

These foundations found in mechanical engineering are usually lost when we have business owners or mechanics trying to be engineers without proper training.

Very few of the folks we trust to do this tricky and technical work on these engines cars have any or the proper scientific or engineering foundation that we should be demanding.

That said, I've never built a motor but this is an observation on how unscientific most of the engine builder's discussions are on this forum. They speak more on the level of a salesman and a mechanic (parts and dynos) than a mechanical engineer and a scientist. I've never once seen a engine builder on this forum post a spec sheet or data collection from a build. I'm fairly certain none of them probably even have a mech E in house or contract one to properly analyze what they're doing.

As a matter of fact I think the only vendor on this forum I'm familiar with that has a scientific background is Motordyne Tony.

JAM3Z

iTrader: (17)

^ the flip side of that is that my roommate is mechanical engineer and I sure as hell wouldn't trust him to build my motor over Sharif or JT.

go-fast

math helps,but you don't have to be an engineer to blueprint a motor.we can learn from 100 years of experimentation to understand what works and what doesn't.performance comes from tweaking that info to suit your application,some of the greatest innovation has come from people who live outside the main steam and self learn.most of the true pro's are eccentric to say the least and marching to your own drum is almost mandatory.what you find here is businessmen who sometimes don't have the passion that you would expect in this specialized industry.unfortunately i believe the budding builders in this forum/platform were crushed by big business discrediting them and nutswinging.

RudeG_v2.0

iTrader: (1)

Been keeping up with the thread on g35driver and it's being questioned as to whether George@GTM is even an employee there. I thought he was the sales manager.

Sorry for the OT, but a clarification on this would be nice.

go-fast

from his posts i always assumed he was management,he spoke with such authority.so a groupie answers their tech and warranty info?

zoni19

iTrader: (1)

all the engines were sent out pretty much at the same time with in a couple of weeks so there was no way for MRC to do any quality control!

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

i think he helps out sam, he has his own business

go-fast

what kind of business?

JAM3Z

iTrader: (17)

Why does it even matter? People like you trying to stir things up are whats going to get this thread closed. This has nothing to do with the engine in question.

go-fast

it has to do with everything,he has been gtm's mouthpiece since i've been here and has always projected more investment than some guy who hangs around.and i have never caused a thread to close,i ask solid questions with no b.s. and no shop affiliation.i probably have offended every major shop on here by asking the questions none of them want you to ask,but never asked a question that was inaproppiate.i don't play favorites and never speak beyond my station.i'm sorry if i touched a nerve with the nut swinging comment.

JAM3Z

iTrader: (17)

no touched nerves here . i just feel like we're getting away from what this discussion is all about.

radiologue

I had work done to the short block and heads and then had the engine/rotating assembly sent to ERL for blueprint and balance. I will gather all of the information that was recorded in the process (for those that are interested).

http://www.erlperformance.com

go-fast

cool.....my point here is not to incite a riot but point out shenanegans.if he has no hands on experience it creates huge credibility issue with whom he represents.