interesting bad built motor thread on G35driver.......
10-25-2008, 10:49 AM
#121
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I had work done to the short block and heads and then had the engine/rotating assembly sent to ERL for blueprint and balance. I will gather all of the information that was recorded in the process (for those that are interested).
http://www.erlperformance.com
http://www.erlperformance.com
10-25-2008, 11:03 AM
#122
My response on G35driver...
Originally Posted by George@GTM
^^ I'll be there 
Julian,
I assumed most people knew what I did for a living considering it has been in my profile on My350z since day one with this user name, didn't know it was a secret?
Yes I work for Sam for FREE. I don't need compensation. We met over 2 years ago, when I decided I would be taking my car to him to begin my project. I was very impressed with him and his shop and we began the process. During that process we became good friends and I have been representing his company on the forums since then.
I have been on these forums since Jan 2003 when I purchased my 350Z, I have been here from the beginning and have seen a lot of people come and go, and the community develop over time. I even went from a TT 350Z to TT G35
While high performance is not my profession, it is my passion. I have many friends that share this passion with me that I learned a great deal from them (and others), I am always looking to expand my knowledge and am always willing to listen. I spent a great deal of time at the shop over the last 2 years, sometimes their from 6pm to 3 am, and even pulling all nighters at times.
This is the same reason that brings me great frustration when I am always accused of being biased when I am trying to help people on the forums with advice, I have nothing to gain either way - just trying to help the community with what I have learned over the past 6 years.
I don't know why you would even bring this up to be honest Julian, considering your a full time cop/part time tuner - not that this is relevant of course.
-George
Julian,
I assumed most people knew what I did for a living considering it has been in my profile on My350z since day one with this user name, didn't know it was a secret?
Yes I work for Sam for FREE. I don't need compensation. We met over 2 years ago, when I decided I would be taking my car to him to begin my project. I was very impressed with him and his shop and we began the process. During that process we became good friends and I have been representing his company on the forums since then.
I have been on these forums since Jan 2003 when I purchased my 350Z, I have been here from the beginning and have seen a lot of people come and go, and the community develop over time. I even went from a TT 350Z to TT G35
While high performance is not my profession, it is my passion. I have many friends that share this passion with me that I learned a great deal from them (and others), I am always looking to expand my knowledge and am always willing to listen. I spent a great deal of time at the shop over the last 2 years, sometimes their from 6pm to 3 am, and even pulling all nighters at times.
This is the same reason that brings me great frustration when I am always accused of being biased when I am trying to help people on the forums with advice, I have nothing to gain either way - just trying to help the community with what I have learned over the past 6 years.
I don't know why you would even bring this up to be honest Julian, considering your a full time cop/part time tuner - not that this is relevant of course.
-George
10-25-2008, 12:44 PM
#123
I have a built short block on order from GTM.
In my case I went with them because I think GTM is one of the most qualified engine building shops for the VQ given their development of their own crankshafts, pistons, rods, cams, and headwork, etc.
Sam is my tuner and IMO I think it's important to have the tune and engine builder come from the same place so there's it's harder to blame someone else.
It can easily turn into a sticky situation when you have multiple manufacturers and multiple shops involved.
My take on this situation:
I don't think it's professional for any shop to start a thread blasting a manufacturer or shop. I see it as a move to try to slam the competition for their own gain and comes off as petty. Let the customers do the complaining and just stop selling those parts.
Answer any customer who asks you about why you don't carry their parts, but certainly it's not worth getting into a public onlight fight in front of the whole community. It just makes everyone look bad no matter how they choose to handle it. I suspect a lot of people are being turned off by MRC and GTM by this thread regardless of who's right just from seeing the effort each shop puts into proving that they're right.
Yeah we all deserve to know who's making bad parts if someone consistently is doing it.
IMO that's up to the buyer to share if they're not satisfied with it was handled.
In my case I went with them because I think GTM is one of the most qualified engine building shops for the VQ given their development of their own crankshafts, pistons, rods, cams, and headwork, etc.
Sam is my tuner and IMO I think it's important to have the tune and engine builder come from the same place so there's it's harder to blame someone else.
It can easily turn into a sticky situation when you have multiple manufacturers and multiple shops involved.
My take on this situation:
I don't think it's professional for any shop to start a thread blasting a manufacturer or shop. I see it as a move to try to slam the competition for their own gain and comes off as petty. Let the customers do the complaining and just stop selling those parts.
Answer any customer who asks you about why you don't carry their parts, but certainly it's not worth getting into a public onlight fight in front of the whole community. It just makes everyone look bad no matter how they choose to handle it. I suspect a lot of people are being turned off by MRC and GTM by this thread regardless of who's right just from seeing the effort each shop puts into proving that they're right.
Yeah we all deserve to know who's making bad parts if someone consistently is doing it.
IMO that's up to the buyer to share if they're not satisfied with it was handled.
Last edited by sentry65; 10-25-2008 at 01:12 PM.
10-25-2008, 01:34 PM
#124
I have a built short block on order from GTM.
In my case I went with them because I think GTM is one of the most qualified engine building shops for the VQ given their development of their own crankshafts, pistons, rods, cams, and headwork, etc.
Sam is my tuner and IMO I think it's important to have the tune and engine builder come from the same place so there's it's harder to blame someone else.
It can easily turn into a sticky situation when you have multiple manufacturers and multiple shops involved.
My take on this situation:
I don't think it's professional for any shop to start a thread blasting a manufacturer or shop. I see it as a move to try to slam the competition for their own gain and comes off as petty.
If you were a cosworth, JWT, HKS, or APS dealer and had a few problems with their parts for whatever reason and they were difficult to deal with - then just drop them and don't sell their parts.
Answer any customer who asks you about why you don't carry their parts, but certainly it's not worth getting into a public onlight fight in front of the whole community. It just makes everyone look bad no matter how they choose to handle it. I suspect a lot of people are being turned off by both MRC and GTM by this thread even if MRC is right or GTM clears their name.
In the end, it just shakes the consumer's confidence seeing how much effort each shop puts into proving that they're right.
Yeah we all deserve to know who's making bad parts if someone consistently is doing it.
IMO that's up to the buyer to share if they're not satisfied with it was handled.
In my case I went with them because I think GTM is one of the most qualified engine building shops for the VQ given their development of their own crankshafts, pistons, rods, cams, and headwork, etc.
Sam is my tuner and IMO I think it's important to have the tune and engine builder come from the same place so there's it's harder to blame someone else.
It can easily turn into a sticky situation when you have multiple manufacturers and multiple shops involved.
My take on this situation:
I don't think it's professional for any shop to start a thread blasting a manufacturer or shop. I see it as a move to try to slam the competition for their own gain and comes off as petty.
If you were a cosworth, JWT, HKS, or APS dealer and had a few problems with their parts for whatever reason and they were difficult to deal with - then just drop them and don't sell their parts.
Answer any customer who asks you about why you don't carry their parts, but certainly it's not worth getting into a public onlight fight in front of the whole community. It just makes everyone look bad no matter how they choose to handle it. I suspect a lot of people are being turned off by both MRC and GTM by this thread even if MRC is right or GTM clears their name.
In the end, it just shakes the consumer's confidence seeing how much effort each shop puts into proving that they're right.
Yeah we all deserve to know who's making bad parts if someone consistently is doing it.
IMO that's up to the buyer to share if they're not satisfied with it was handled.
GTM seems to have had some problems with motors going out to several shops , but Sam and George decide to try to hide it and say only Julians shop is the only one that got bad motors . To try to make it look like Julian was the problem , not GTM's motors .....you maybe able to over look that , but I cant and Im sure others see that ploy also . GTM is a top knotch shop and probably makes more $ than any other shop on this site . It seems it would be better to take care of the bad motors than wait till it gets out of hand like it has this time and for every one to see how they handled it , and handling badly I might add .
10-25-2008, 01:42 PM
#125
I respect YPO but this site and other 350Z and G35 web sites spend tons of cash with these shops . If one shop bends over backwards to put out great products and service and a few other shops make excuses , avoid taking responsibility , and put the blame on every one else . Shops like that should be pointed out . AAM is an example of this . Seems the only time they take respnsibility and make it right is when its brought to the forums to make it public .
GTM seems to have had some problems with motors going out to several shops , but Sam and George decide to try to hide it and say only Julians shop is the only one that got bad motors . To try to make it look like Julian was the problem , not GTM's motors .....you maybe able to over look that , but I cant and Im sure others see that ploy also . GTM is a top knotch shop and probably makes more $ than any other shop on this site . It seems it would be better to take care of the bad motors than wait till it gets out of hand like it has this time and for every one to see how they handled it , and handling badly I might add .
GTM seems to have had some problems with motors going out to several shops , but Sam and George decide to try to hide it and say only Julians shop is the only one that got bad motors . To try to make it look like Julian was the problem , not GTM's motors .....you maybe able to over look that , but I cant and Im sure others see that ploy also . GTM is a top knotch shop and probably makes more $ than any other shop on this site . It seems it would be better to take care of the bad motors than wait till it gets out of hand like it has this time and for every one to see how they handled it , and handling badly I might add .
I know, I 100% agree with you.
The people who brought AAM and VRT to their knees though wasn't the opinions of other shops so much as it was customers.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'll listen to a customer's opinion more than a shop's when it comes to who makes good and bad products. That's because the "good" products are always the ones that particular shop sells, while the "bad" ones are the ones they don't sell.
There's always an underlying agenda for a shop to sell you their products whether what they tell you is true or not.
At the end of all of this, if the customer still thinks it's GTM's fault and didn't like how they handled it, then I'd probably agree with them if it's for sound reasons. On the other hand, sometimes customers can be completely unreasonable.
Last edited by sentry65; 10-25-2008 at 01:49 PM.
10-25-2008, 01:45 PM
#126
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While i think GTM is hands down the most $$$ shop in North America, that is where i think most peoples beef with them stops. While these engines may indeed be the fault of GTM, leave it to Emolian to post the thread before all the results are in.
10-25-2008, 02:10 PM
#127
I know, I 100% agree with you.
The people who brought AAM and VRT to their knees though wasn't the opinions of other shops so much as it was customers.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'll listen to a customer's opinion more than a shop's when it comes to who makes good and bad products. That's because the "good" products are always the ones that particular shop sells, while the "bad" ones are the ones they don't sell.
There's always an underlying agenda for a shop to sell you their products whether what they tell you is true or not
The people who brought AAM and VRT to their knees though wasn't the opinions of other shops so much as it was customers.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'll listen to a customer's opinion more than a shop's when it comes to who makes good and bad products. That's because the "good" products are always the ones that particular shop sells, while the "bad" ones are the ones they don't sell.
There's always an underlying agenda for a shop to sell you their products whether what they tell you is true or not
The car owners are keeping mum to see if they are taken care of by customer service of the responsible shop. If they aren't, you will see 4 new threads posted here.
It hurts the bussiness of any shop to point out that it's supplier is putting out a bad product and may not stand behind it when it fails. No one is going to sign up to go to the local shop and have a swap done if they see this thread...car owners don't want to rock the boat and risk any chance of getting the motor fixed and some less reputable performance shops want to keep this under wraps so they still get people comming in for new sales.
Right now, shops rely on vendor supplied engines to bring in the big Forged internal/ Twin Turbo install money. I think you are going to start seeing more shops going in-house quitely or making sure that the vendor gets better quality controls in place.
10-26-2008, 07:13 AM
#128
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i agree completely with one exception,i would listen to a shop due to the fact they stand more to lose.if a shop is screaming "BAD MOTORS-LOOK OUT!" you should probably show caution,we are not talking about underdrive pully's here.big difference
Last edited by go-fast; 10-26-2008 at 07:48 AM.
10-26-2008, 07:42 AM
#129
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that's not true,gtm hit my radar when i noticed that they where always in the mix discrediting other builders.which would have been fine with me provided they offered a superior product.sadly,time and again they showed little more expertise than the small guys they where crushing.over and over negative gtm threads have been deleted,modified or taken over by swingers.
10-26-2008, 08:13 AM
#130
That thread makes me sick. The lack of Integrity from "respected" members and shop owners is disgusting. This community is a mafia, most dont know the things that really go on, and most wont choose to believe that the shops they look up to are full of fail
10-26-2008, 09:16 AM
#131
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personally if i had a 4 or 5 motor issue(would never happen),i would be on the first flight to stand behind my work and review the events that led to a pile of motors being called n/g.forget the money aspect,it's a credibility issue and you can't get that back.wait for reports........ha,wait for nothing.they are so used to the cleaners coming in and mopping up the mess,guess what....this time it involves one of the mod's motors.no offense rome,i think your a great guy,but i have a feeling that your motor has a lot to do with why this gtm thread is going unfiltered and i applaud ALL of the mods for allowing the curtain to be pulled down.
10-26-2008, 09:37 AM
#132
Julian has posted some pretty damning and convincing photos with questions posed directly to Sam, but still no response.
I'm trying to keep an open mind and give both sides some benefit of doubt, but the continued silence from Sam despite the evidence Julian is posting doesn't inspire confidence in GTM's product or how they are handling this PR nightmare.
I'm trying to keep an open mind and give both sides some benefit of doubt, but the continued silence from Sam despite the evidence Julian is posting doesn't inspire confidence in GTM's product or how they are handling this PR nightmare.
10-26-2008, 09:46 AM
#133
There is a fine line between evidence and interpretation of the evidence. Even experts can disagree on what the evidence proves or disproves. I do know enough about quality control in general to know that when things go wrong, it usually isn't just one thing that failed, but a series of events that indicate process failures at multiple points, and all are usually not the fault of a single entity. So that's where the finger pointing commences. I am not an expert in this field and I am not making a judgment in this case (and though I have an opinion based on the photos I've seen, it matters very little, except in the end to see if it matches what the experts determine to be "the truth"; and from that I learn).
There is also a fine line between "professional courtesy" and "hiding the truth". Until you are in a position where you are building a career in a field where the world is very small and you cannot easily jump ship if things go wrong, I wouldn't be so quick to judge those that choose discretion and mistake that for a lack of integrity. These guys working together means a stronger VQ community and better products for all of us. If the shops involved maintain a level of professionalism and for the sake of the customers, recognize that accepting financial responsibility does not necessarily equate to an admission of guilt, I think the outcome can still be a positive one for all involved. Both shops have put out great cars. Both can continue to do so in the future. Working together to recognize how to improve the process so this type of event is less likely to occur is the best way to move forward.
Best of luck to GTM and MRC. Clearly there is room for improvement.
There is also a fine line between "professional courtesy" and "hiding the truth". Until you are in a position where you are building a career in a field where the world is very small and you cannot easily jump ship if things go wrong, I wouldn't be so quick to judge those that choose discretion and mistake that for a lack of integrity. These guys working together means a stronger VQ community and better products for all of us. If the shops involved maintain a level of professionalism and for the sake of the customers, recognize that accepting financial responsibility does not necessarily equate to an admission of guilt, I think the outcome can still be a positive one for all involved. Both shops have put out great cars. Both can continue to do so in the future. Working together to recognize how to improve the process so this type of event is less likely to occur is the best way to move forward.
Best of luck to GTM and MRC. Clearly there is room for improvement.
10-26-2008, 11:23 AM
#135
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Originally Posted by go-fast
math helps,but you don't have to be an engineer to blueprint a motor.we can learn from 100 years of experimentation to understand what works and what doesn't.performance comes from tweaking that info to suit your application,some of the greatest innovation has come from people who live outside the main steam and self learn.most of the true pro's are eccentric to say the least and marching to your own drum is almost mandatory.what you find here is businessmen who sometimes don't have the passion that you would expect in this specialized industry.unfortunately i believe the budding builders in this forum/platform were crushed by big business discrediting them and nutswinging.
the approach of recording variables and data to be analyzed later on is crucial in what basically constitutes to redesigning an engine to work in a very different way and for a very different purpose at levels which it wasn't meant to (by very meticulous mechanical engineers) work at previously.
this just means they should probably be recording data like any scientist or production engineer as well as any problems that they run into along the way. Nowadays with computers it's so easy for them to record and expand their database so they can continue to learn.
the only company on this forum that has shared that they work this way is Motordyne. I'll leave everyone to their own opinion about how things should work in this highly technical field but this is mine.
10-26-2008, 11:26 AM
#136
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I agree 100% that it doesn't take a mechanical engineer to build engines but in my personal opinion it does take the same scientific approach.
the approach of recording variables and data to be analyzed later on is crucial in what basically constitutes to redesigning an engine to work in a very different way and for a very different purpose at levels which it wasn't meant to (by very meticulous mechanical engineers) work at previously.
this just means they should probably be recording data like any scientist or production engineer as well as any problems that they run into along the way. Nowadays with computers it's so easy for them to record and expand their database so they can continue to learn.
the only company on this forum that has shared that they work this way is Motordyne. I'll leave everyone to their own opinion about how things should work in this highly technical field but this is mine.
the approach of recording variables and data to be analyzed later on is crucial in what basically constitutes to redesigning an engine to work in a very different way and for a very different purpose at levels which it wasn't meant to (by very meticulous mechanical engineers) work at previously.
this just means they should probably be recording data like any scientist or production engineer as well as any problems that they run into along the way. Nowadays with computers it's so easy for them to record and expand their database so they can continue to learn.
the only company on this forum that has shared that they work this way is Motordyne. I'll leave everyone to their own opinion about how things should work in this highly technical field but this is mine.
10-26-2008, 01:54 PM
#139
Well I can tell you some shop owners on this site and that site in that thread are hiding $hit. That is where the lack of integrity resides. Its sick what people do for others because they think they are "friends" yet when I speak to one shop about the other, its always somebody getting called out and getting thrown under the bus. Some honesty in this community.