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Old 06-26-2009, 12:58 PM
  #1381  
jpc350
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Some has wondered why Frank has not responded on this thread..I had some minor work done by frank yesterday and his response to me was as vendor now he would have to pay $$$ to join, and at the moment , he's not in the position to spend that kind of $$$$..

As an absolutely stand up guy, he will accept responsibility if it can be determined that the problem was caused by him.

So, he awaits the engine tear down and determination of what exactly happened..
Old 06-26-2009, 03:01 PM
  #1382  
Cass007
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Guys - thank you for all the support you have shown for my project. I am still weighing all my options at this point and gathering info so I can make the decision that is best for me.

Again, I appreciate Dave's generous offer and am sure Frank would do the same if he had a built motor without a home as well.

That being said, please keep in mind that the motor is only part of the issue. The last time this happened I lost everything, motor, heads, turbos, cams... all of it. This is not just about a motor, but about making me whole. I had a car that made 643whp on a DD, (headwork, custom turbos, cams) anything less is a compromise on my part in an effort to get on the road ASAP.

I did not begin this build as an effort to be average and will have a hard time settling for anything less than what I had previously. I do not mean this to come across as arrogant in any way, I am mearly stating how I truly feel and hope that everyone involved can understand that. I only wish that none of these setbacks had ever happened.... for everyone's sake, as I am sure the shops involved more than likely now wish they had never been involved in my project, or would have had complete control from day one.
Old 06-26-2009, 03:07 PM
  #1383  
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The current problem to solve is not why the motor spun a bearing and now has a knock.

The current problem to solve is not which shop is at fault.

The problem to solve is how fast can the two shop owners get Cass on the road and place a happy face at the end of Cass' build thread.

Surely the shops are now working together on getting Cass back on the road BEFORE the post mortem on the motor,...
Old 06-26-2009, 03:13 PM
  #1384  
Cass007
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Originally Posted by ToastZ
The current problem to solve is not why the motor spun a bearing and now has a knock.

The current problem to solve is not which shop is at fault.

The problem to solve is how fast can the two shop owners get Cass on the road and place a happy face at the end of Cass' build thread.

Surely the shops are now working together on getting Cass back on the road BEFORE the post mortem on the motor,...
As far as I know, the shops have not spoken to one another about my issues.
Old 06-26-2009, 03:18 PM
  #1385  
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Originally Posted by nyqueenz
i meant update on the problem... what caused it?
Seems to me that oil pressure was at fault both times.......which goes to the buider of the engine.The tuner has nothing to do with the build which is why mine will be done at one place.
Old 06-26-2009, 03:21 PM
  #1386  
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Originally Posted by tylerxfire
damn i wish that frank was on here to see what he would have to say on this
He knows all about this site.
Old 06-26-2009, 03:30 PM
  #1387  
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Originally Posted by Cass007
As far as I know, the shops have not spoken to one another about my issues.
Sorry to hear that Cass. You'll have a PM shortly.
Old 06-26-2009, 03:41 PM
  #1388  
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Cass take this as you will but this is how I see this shitty situation...

IMO....(and anyone PLEASE let me know if there is any wrong info in here).....there is a shop here that is clearly more responsible and should be putting forth MUCH more effort in getting this car back on the road and unfortunately that would be Frank to be quite honest. The second motor was spec'd by Justice Racing Engines and assembled by Frank (not assembled by Justice as recommended to save money the 2nd time around). The first motor was rehabbed and assembled by Frank...the first motor didn't even make it on the dyno...The second barely made it off....and yet the same thing happened to both motors.

I know Frank has assembled plenty of motors but this is 2 in a row with the same result.

Also,

Dave doesn't fully assemble the built motors he recommends and sells his customers (everything from 3.5L to a 3.8L)...Justice Racing Engines does...and there have been zero issues with a single one. Then again...all Justice does is build engines..sure they can make mistakes too but...that's what they do day in and day out....no mechanics or tuning...just spec'ing and building motors. By doing this he believes his customers the best quality and what he has been asking for from day 1. Can he assemble...sure...does he?...no.

Do these "crate motors" people buy (GTM, etc) get built by a certified mechanic that typically would be installing a TT kit if the job was on the books? Does each tech installing a TT kit and built motor assemble their built motor for the specific car they are working on? Prob not...actually...I'd bet not...

Assembling a motor for high hp and extreme performance requires expertise and experience. IMO

Last edited by Driven1; 06-26-2009 at 03:45 PM.
Old 06-26-2009, 03:58 PM
  #1389  
jpc350
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Originally Posted by superchargedg
Seems to me that oil pressure was at fault both times.......which goes to the buider of the engine.The tuner has nothing to do with the build which is why mine will be done at one place.
True, Frank put the first engine together, but remember the root cause of failure was the powdercoating and not the engine assembly...We don't know yet what caused this engine to fail but speculation. Folks need to understand the facts and not make casual uninformed comments.

We have reputations and livelihoods at stake so be considerate..
Old 06-26-2009, 04:08 PM
  #1390  
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Originally Posted by Cass007
As far as I know, the shops have not spoken to one another about my issues.
That's a shame and does not bode well for a successful 3rd attempt.

Yet another example of why only one shop should be involved in the build.


P.S. Your a nice guy Chris... maybe too nice in this instance. I think you should be demanding a 3-way conference call about how they intend to get you back on the road with 600+whp ASAP, if these guys aren't communicating with each other yet to resolve your ordeal. It sounds like Dave is stepping up to the plate and trying to make that happen, but based on what jpc350 posted... it seems Frank is playing the wait and see game.

Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 06-26-2009 at 04:37 PM.
Old 06-26-2009, 04:15 PM
  #1391  
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Originally Posted by jpc350
True, Frank put the first engine together, but remember the root cause of failure was the powdercoating and not the engine assembly...We don't know yet what caused this engine to fail but speculation. Folks need to understand the facts and not make casual uninformed comments.

We have reputations and livelihoods at stake so be considerate..
EXHIBIT A


^ Are you gonna try to defend that too? Only god at this point knows if that rag may have contributed or led to this second engine failure, but look at all those small fragments and debris. That's not exactly a clean rag either.

Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 06-26-2009 at 04:23 PM.
Old 06-26-2009, 04:37 PM
  #1392  
Driven1
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Originally Posted by jpc350
True, Frank put the first engine together, but remember the root cause of failure was the powdercoating and not the engine assembly...We don't know yet what caused this engine to fail but speculation. Folks need to understand the facts and not make casual uninformed comments.

We have reputations and livelihoods at stake so be considerate..
IF thats the case...the powdercoating or powder coated parts are part of the assembly of the overall motor. If that's the reason why would have the person who built/ final assembled the motor (Frank) have installed it if it was an issue? IMO that's still the responsibility of the person who did final assembly. Did he ever say...Chris...Im not guaranteeing or recommending you do this? He was specifically chosen by Chris for his attention to detail right?
Old 06-26-2009, 04:44 PM
  #1393  
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Originally Posted by Driven1
IF thats the case...the powdercoating or powder coated parts are part of the assembly of the overall motor. If that's the reason why would have the person who built/ final assembled the motor (Frank) have installed it if it was an issue? IMO that's still the responsibility of the person who did final assembly. Did he ever say...Chris...Im not guaranteeing or recommending you do this? He was specifically chosen by Chris for his attention to detail right?


I agree. If there was indeed a fitment issue due to the powdercoating... Shouldn't Frank have noticed this during the assembly and addressed/fixed the issue at that point?

This and the rag fiasco are two very incriminating indicators that Frank's supposedly meticulous attention to detail was severely lacking.

Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 06-26-2009 at 04:47 PM.
Old 06-26-2009, 05:44 PM
  #1394  
Cass007
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Guys - Please don't take Frank's lack of posting as hiding or avoiding. He never posts.....period. He sent me texts the other night asking about teardown and how I wanted to handle things. I'm changing my mind constantly right now and honestly have no idea what is best.

This is extremely difficult since I really consider both Frank and Dave friends and I chose their shops because I wanted to work with shops I expect to do business with for years to come.

I thank Robbie for his advice this evening and am still hopeful that a resolution can reached that makes me whole and does not result in a blame game.
Old 06-26-2009, 06:16 PM
  #1395  
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Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0


I agree. If there was indeed a fitment issue due to the powdercoating... Shouldn't Frank have noticed this during the assembly and addressed/fixed the issue at that point?

This and the rag fiasco are two very incriminating indicators that Frank's supposedly meticulous attention to detail was severely lacking.
ok let me tell you what frank did consult with chris about the powder coating issues becuase chris was right there during assembly and frank did bring up a concern and yes they tried to remove the powder coating and i do beleive most of it was removed and chris agreed to go ahead and put it on.. when they put the cam cover on they could not see that the seal was pinched.. there was no way to see it... it was a fluke.. and would never have thought something like that could have ever happened.. after that happened frank built chris's motor in a record time for PRACTICALLY FREE and fixed a few things and had it done for a deadline to go to zdays and the air strip. the car was done a week in ahalf before the event, with dave was saying get it to me and i will tune it and then the car sat there for like 6 weeks. (frank would have never rushed things like that if he would have known the car was just going to sit there at functioned tuned) tune here tune there granted we had a lot of rain.. the car was running great no issues not problem at all.. and then all of asudden dave notices a oil pressure problem and assumes it was a because the motor was hot.. runs the car more, i am assuming without checking the oil or changing the oil to check for particles.. and then bam it blows, with no other indications at all... to me this sounds like a part failure to me.. but we wont know until the motor is broken down.. frank is just as devistated as dave is. and yes if frank just had a built motor without a home laying around he would tell chris the same thing and offer it to him..
frank has built motors, and installed turbo kits, and he does have the experiance in doing both. and he has built motors that got shipped out to other shops... and has built the motors that he has installed the turbo kits on. aswell as designed tubo kits..

the rag incident absolutely tore frank apart because he has never made a mistake like that before, never in his 14 or 15 years of being a mechanic.. frank also offered to take care of the time that dave spent searching for the problem..(aka the rag, the problem for no boost)
frank is an absolute stand up guy is not dening anything and will stand up to his mistake if it is found that it is his fault.. i am sure that if chriss comes to frank to redo this motor i am sure that frank will again take care of the labor time or if it is his fault completey cover everything..
and frank also hardly comes on this site..
sorry about my grammar..
and yes i think dave is a very good guy and stand up guy. i plan on him tuning my car...

Last edited by thefireboy; 06-26-2009 at 06:24 PM.
Old 06-26-2009, 06:18 PM
  #1396  
tylerxfire
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nobody is blaming anyone or saying they are hiding.;..i would just like to hear what he has to say just like i enjoy seeing what dave has to say along with cass and everyone else involved...
Old 06-26-2009, 06:22 PM
  #1397  
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well i will tell you right now you will most likely never see frank on here period.. dave was expected to post since he was with the car when it broke down.. frank has no idea what the problem is and will not know until the motor is torn down.. anything right now is just speculation.. all you want to see is war start on here like AAM threads.. there is a difference here these 2 shops are like and trusted in the mid-a.. if you want drama go start it somewhere else..
Old 06-26-2009, 06:54 PM
  #1398  
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Originally Posted by thefireboy
well i will tell you right now you will most likely never see frank on here period.. dave was expected to post since he was with the car when it broke down.. frank has no idea what the problem is and will not know until the motor is torn down.. anything right now is just speculation.. all you want to see is war start on here like AAM threads.. there is a difference here these 2 shops are like and trusted in the mid-a.. if you want drama go start it somewhere else..
Wrong. It's not about creating drama. Pull out your cameltoe and cool off. The emotional nuthugging isn't needed here. Nobody has questioned the integrity Frank (or Dave).

We want to see Chris get taken care of and get the car he wanted ASAP. He has invested a lot of money and time in this build project with the results being two failed motors. In discussing this, it is hard to ignore the issues of the powdercoat being blamed for the first failure and the rag being found with the second motor. You mean to tell me that Frank doesn't suspect that pieces or debris from that rag may have led to this second engine failure?

Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 06-26-2009 at 07:16 PM.
Old 06-26-2009, 07:06 PM
  #1399  
Cass007
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and then bam it blows, with no other indications at all... to me this sounds like a part failure to me..
So, if this was your car Nick, you would just chalk it up to "you gotta pay to play" after experiencing two failures (seemingly similar) with zero boosted miles driven and thousands spent. Somehow I don't see you being so laid back and understanding. Maybe ACL race bearings aren't all they are cracked up to be.

Frank busted his a$$ to get my car ready for zdayz - 100% true. He generously offered free labor on the re-build and I accepted that offer. He has always treated me as priority one in his shop and I truly appreciate that. Dave took much longer to tune my car than I wanted, no doubt about that.

Remember, when the rag was found I wasn't talking trash on Frank one bit, I understand that mistakes happen, but at some point I need to look out for myself just like everyone else is doing.
Old 06-26-2009, 07:09 PM
  #1400  
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Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0
Wrong. Pull out your cameltoe and cool off. The emotional nuthugging isn't needed here. Nobody has questioned the integrity Frank (or Dave).

We want to see Chris get taken care of and get the car he wanted ASAP. He has invested a lot of money and time in this build project with the results being two failed motors. In discussing this, it is hard to ignore the issues of the powdercoat and the rag. You mean to tell me that Frank doesn't suspect that pieces or debris from that rag may have led to this second engine failure?
MAYBE NOT QUESTIONED directly BUT IT HAS BEEN IMPLIED FOR SURE.. you dont think frank wants to find out what happened or see chris get on the road.. im sorry but i dont think there is a shop out there that would go out and spend close to 20 grand for a built motor if the determination of the blown motor has not been found.. besides offering a motor like what dave has to just get him on the road until the determination is made..
what if it was a defected baring or rod or something. what if the oil pump crapped out because of a defect.. like i said before there is so many variables.. if frank did not tighten a baring to spec then i do beleive you would have noticed it alot sooner.. and i think that if the rag cause the fail then there might have been more of a warning then just all of asudden fail... frank documents all of his motor builds and double and probably triple checks everything..
and i guess if it was thought that the rag could have caused this then i guess dave should have also torn down the top end of the motor to check and also changed the oil just to make sure as well.. was that done???
everybody makes mistakes... and forgets or does not think about certain situations or thinks that its not possible but when it really is...


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