My Build: The Good, The Bad & The Progress
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06-27-2009, 02:20 PM
#1442
DUDE!! If you part out, I will KEEEELLL YUUUU!!!!! At this point, you don't have to spend another penny, and the 3 shops in the picture HAVE TO AGREE TO A CONCLUSION... there is no "well I didn't do it" and walk away... because someone DID DO IT. Who cares if they never come to an agreement, bottom line is: it aint your fault, so regardless of whois fault it is - you have the right to get a 100% working car. So please edit your post, because you're not parting out buddy!!!!!!!!!
PS. PM me ur # so I can snap some pics when I'm there @ the shop to remind u of how awesome ur car is going to be.
PPS: My car will be next for a build by both Dave and Justice Racing. Look out for a future buildup thread right here in ur friendly neighborhood FI section.
PS. PM me ur # so I can snap some pics when I'm there @ the shop to remind u of how awesome ur car is going to be.
PPS: My car will be next for a build by both Dave and Justice Racing. Look out for a future buildup thread right here in ur friendly neighborhood FI section.
06-27-2009, 02:26 PM
#1444
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06-27-2009, 05:29 PM
#1448
HHAHA... ninja edit. Your credit is always good with me Robbie.
I sent identical texts to both shops today (everything I have sent to one shop has been sent to both) asking what happens to me if all the parties involved are present at teardown (including Jim Justice) and an obvious cause for failure doesn't present itself? If a bearing or rod simply failed because my karma blows goats (I really don't think I have done enough bad things in my life to deserve this level of fail
) then am I just on my own?
I have been exploring all options - part out, teardown and build with another shop and seek legal recourse for my damages and expenses, reach an amicable solution with the parties currently involved in my build.
I have no doubt if that during teardown an obvious problem presents itself that the appropriate party would take responsibility. Signs of detonation or headlift = F:T, incorrect torque specs/misassembly = Hills Garage, improper specs on the bottom end components = Justice Racing.
My greatest fear is that I get the motor torn down and nobody can agree on what the cause of failure is and everyone just goes into CYOA mode and I just get stuck.
I sent identical texts to both shops today (everything I have sent to one shop has been sent to both) asking what happens to me if all the parties involved are present at teardown (including Jim Justice) and an obvious cause for failure doesn't present itself? If a bearing or rod simply failed because my karma blows goats (I really don't think I have done enough bad things in my life to deserve this level of fail
) then am I just on my own?I have been exploring all options - part out, teardown and build with another shop and seek legal recourse for my damages and expenses, reach an amicable solution with the parties currently involved in my build.
I have no doubt if that during teardown an obvious problem presents itself that the appropriate party would take responsibility. Signs of detonation or headlift = F:T, incorrect torque specs/misassembly = Hills Garage, improper specs on the bottom end components = Justice Racing.
My greatest fear is that I get the motor torn down and nobody can agree on what the cause of failure is and everyone just goes into CYOA mode and I just get stuck.
Everything leading up to the time of critial failure is all crucial information that would have given clues at to what really happened. The fluids tell the story. Have you ever tried to find an oil leak with no oil in the car and the engine not running? Kinda hard to do ain't it. I mean unless you can get oil into the engine and repressurize the system without having to start it your chances of finding such a leak are next to nill unless it was way obvious from start. That this point a tear down wouldn't hold much weight in my book. Fact is that the only one present at the time of failure was Dave so he would have the most evidence as to what was really going on before and at the time of the failure. Do I beleive the tune caused the problem? NO I do dont. I don't know Dave or his shop but like I said before no tuner I've ever heard of has ever been able to tune past mechanical issues. If you want real clues as to what happened talk to Dave.
Hills Garage should be taking ownership of this issue the way I see it. Even if the block was build at Justice the minute Frank got the block from them he should have done a complete inspection first. That's what is called attention to details. Frank should have checked specs and settings and sent it back if it didn't clear his inspection him being a professional and all. The fact that didn't happen means he felt it okay to build on it which means he assumes responsibility for the build. Thats how it is in real life boys and girls. Now if Frank had found something wrong with the motor he received and informaed Cass about it and Cass told him to build on it anyway (a liability release formed signed I hope) would have been a different story but I'm sure that wasn't the case.
Now I'm sure that Hills Garage has liability insurance on their shop. I could be wrong but most shops do. This seem to be a clear case when he should use it I think. Either that or take care of this issue before my lawyer uses it for him if it were me.
CASS, like I said before you seem like a really great guy and very forgiving but you need to assume some resposibility here as well. By you accepting responsibility for the first build failure instead of forcing Hills Garage to take ownership cost you money and time you can't get back even in a court of law. I'm sorry for that. Don't do it again.
Second thought... Since this would be outside the relm of small caims court you might be able to get reimbursed for both time and money if you have a signed contract spelling out total cost and expected time of completion.
Last edited by Havok_RLS2; 06-27-2009 at 05:31 PM.
06-27-2009, 05:37 PM
#1449
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all i am going to say is this.. yes frank offered to pay for the time dave spent finding the boost problem... frank did rebuild the second motor for free. yes he made a mistake with the rag and yes he has owned up to it..not denying anything there..and the motor was specked by by justice racing.. and frank double check everything before assembly...
fact is nobody knows what caused the motor to blow.. we really dont even know what is worng with the motor yet.. if frank is at fault then he will take full responsibility and pay for the complete rebuild.. as it was said before i am sure that if frank had been around alittle longer and had a shop project with a built motor he would offer it to chris, just like dave has until the problem was found with chris's motor...
if either dave or frank thought that the rag could have done anymore damage than i guess they would have torn down the top end and changed the oil..to make sure everything was good to go.. but that was not done...
my questions. was there ever a second oil change done? did dave check the oil or change it after the the oil pressure dropped?
anything is possible and there is always something that could have been done, but i think we all have established that nobody is perfect and cann't think to do everything everytime to prevent devistation....
the tare down will tell the truth.. and not anybody on here's opinion or thoughts.. chris will be taken care of no matter who's fault it is being frank, dave, or justice..
and no i am not nut hugging because i really like dave and i think he is a great tuner and mechanic, he has a true passion for this business..
and i am not saying that frank is not at fault becuase he very well could have made a mistake.. just explore all the options and wait for the facts after the engine is torn done before fingers are pointed.. and this has been said before nobody is perfect. its how the mistake is handled is what makes the difference..
fact is nobody knows what caused the motor to blow.. we really dont even know what is worng with the motor yet.. if frank is at fault then he will take full responsibility and pay for the complete rebuild.. as it was said before i am sure that if frank had been around alittle longer and had a shop project with a built motor he would offer it to chris, just like dave has until the problem was found with chris's motor...
if either dave or frank thought that the rag could have done anymore damage than i guess they would have torn down the top end and changed the oil..to make sure everything was good to go.. but that was not done...
my questions. was there ever a second oil change done? did dave check the oil or change it after the the oil pressure dropped?
anything is possible and there is always something that could have been done, but i think we all have established that nobody is perfect and cann't think to do everything everytime to prevent devistation....
the tare down will tell the truth.. and not anybody on here's opinion or thoughts.. chris will be taken care of no matter who's fault it is being frank, dave, or justice..
and no i am not nut hugging because i really like dave and i think he is a great tuner and mechanic, he has a true passion for this business..
and i am not saying that frank is not at fault becuase he very well could have made a mistake.. just explore all the options and wait for the facts after the engine is torn done before fingers are pointed.. and this has been said before nobody is perfect. its how the mistake is handled is what makes the difference..
Last edited by thefireboy; 06-27-2009 at 05:48 PM.
06-27-2009, 08:21 PM
#1450
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HHAHA... ninja edit. Your credit is always good with me Robbie.
I sent identical texts to both shops today (everything I have sent to one shop has been sent to both) asking what happens to me if all the parties involved are present at teardown (including Jim Justice) and an obvious cause for failure doesn't present itself? If a bearing or rod simply failed because my karma blows goats (I really don't think I have done enough bad things in my life to deserve this level of fail) then am I just on my own?
I have been exploring all options - part out, teardown and build with another shop and seek legal recourse for my damages and expenses, reach an amicable solution with the parties currently involved in my build.
I have no doubt if that during teardown an obvious problem presents itself that the appropriate party would take responsibility. Signs of detonation or headlift = F:T, incorrect torque specs/misassembly = Hills Garage, improper specs on the bottom end components = Justice Racing.
My greatest fear is that I get the motor torn down and nobody can agree on what the cause of failure is and everyone just goes into CYOA mode and I just get stuck.
I sent identical texts to both shops today (everything I have sent to one shop has been sent to both) asking what happens to me if all the parties involved are present at teardown (including Jim Justice) and an obvious cause for failure doesn't present itself? If a bearing or rod simply failed because my karma blows goats (I really don't think I have done enough bad things in my life to deserve this level of fail
) then am I just on my own?I have been exploring all options - part out, teardown and build with another shop and seek legal recourse for my damages and expenses, reach an amicable solution with the parties currently involved in my build.
I have no doubt if that during teardown an obvious problem presents itself that the appropriate party would take responsibility. Signs of detonation or headlift = F:T, incorrect torque specs/misassembly = Hills Garage, improper specs on the bottom end components = Justice Racing.
My greatest fear is that I get the motor torn down and nobody can agree on what the cause of failure is and everyone just goes into CYOA mode and I just get stuck.
CHRIS !!!!!!! It does not matter....You paid for a car that runs....It someones fault...not yours....Its easy to see so far that one of the shops maybe in the clear.....but still....you paid for a car that SHOULD make good power...not a failed motor.
Like I said before....let them figure it out....but they need to figure it out after your car is up and running.
The shop/shops that refuses to have a third party do the tear down is the guilty party....plain and simple. Thats the shop that knows they F-ed up.
How the hell could someone expect you to pay for a job/car x 3 that has not been returned to you in running order. At this point.....I would not give a **** who's fault it is.....SOME BODY BETTER GIVE ME WHAT I PAID FOR !!!!
Last edited by XKR; 06-27-2009 at 08:27 PM.
06-27-2009, 08:22 PM
#1451
I have heard such good things about ALL shops involved its too bad this had to happen it is the worst case scenario for EVERYONE involved.
I hope Chris gets going with the least amount of down time and no more money out of pocket. I also hope all shops come out of the situation with there good reputations in tact.
06-27-2009, 10:42 PM
#1452
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Whoever brakes this motor down/apart.. I recommend someone “PLEASE” Video recorded/Document the whole process “ IN DETAIL”. This will help to fully understand the problem in what’s making this “Oil Pressure FAIL” spun Bering issues. It will also help me in my decision on what I have to “Pay particular attention too” during my build processes and prob other builds in the future.
06-27-2009, 11:03 PM
#1453
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cass,the mis-steps in this build entitle you to speedy service.it doesn't matter which of the involved parties are to blame,that is for vendors to wrestle out between themselves.
i've seen a rag sucked down a carb and blow the hell out of a rod bearing.when he pulled the head off only a small part of it sucked into the valve....but it was enough.
i've also seen a screw drop down a carb and it ran fine until refresh,on teardown it was found pressed into the top of the piston.no valve damage,no cyl head damage and no sign of detonation.
the point is sh$t happens,but they still owe you a car that runs.builder should build you a motor,installer should install it and the tuner should tune it......all as fast as they can.let them fight who owes what after you take delivery of a 600+ car.
i've seen a rag sucked down a carb and blow the hell out of a rod bearing.when he pulled the head off only a small part of it sucked into the valve....but it was enough.
i've also seen a screw drop down a carb and it ran fine until refresh,on teardown it was found pressed into the top of the piston.no valve damage,no cyl head damage and no sign of detonation.
the point is sh$t happens,but they still owe you a car that runs.builder should build you a motor,installer should install it and the tuner should tune it......all as fast as they can.let them fight who owes what after you take delivery of a 600+ car.
06-28-2009, 05:43 AM
#1455
Who was supposed to change the oil? I am not sure the entire deal with what Dave was responsible for but most tuners expect a car that has been dropped off to be tuned 100% ready to go fluids should be checked, changed and topped off the car should be ready to go prior to hitting the tuners shop. Unless there was another agreement in place there may have been in this case did Dave break in the engine? Or was this one broke in prior to being dropped off at his shop I can't recall. This a unique situation to most but your questions are good its just who was responsible for that stuff? When the pressure dropped I thought the engine was shut off and towed?
I have heard such good things about ALL shops involved its too bad this had to happen it is the worst case scenario for EVERYONE involved.
I hope Chris gets going with the least amount of down time and no more money out of pocket. I also hope all shops come out of the situation with there good reputations in tact.
I have heard such good things about ALL shops involved its too bad this had to happen it is the worst case scenario for EVERYONE involved.
I hope Chris gets going with the least amount of down time and no more money out of pocket. I also hope all shops come out of the situation with there good reputations in tact.
When the rag was found, Dave scoped everything into and out of the turbos for debris and determined that everything was OK. I have many pictures he took during this process, but IMO only an experienced tech could make much sense of them.
I got a voice mail from Frank last night while drinking my woes away with a friend (thats happening a lot right now), he was at a Maxima event all day yesterday and we will probably talk today. I'm still deciding if I will head down to the F:T carwash event today.
06-28-2009, 06:22 AM
#1456
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all i am going to say is this.. yes frank offered to pay for the time dave spent finding the boost problem... frank did rebuild the second motor for free. yes he made a mistake with the rag and yes he has owned up to it..not denying anything there..and the motor was specked by by justice racing.. and frank double check everything before assembly...
fact is nobody knows what caused the motor to blow.. we really dont even know what is worng with the motor yet.. if frank is at fault then he will take full responsibility and pay for the complete rebuild.. as it was said before i am sure that if frank had been around alittle longer and had a shop project with a built motor he would offer it to chris, just like dave has until the problem was found with chris's motor...
if either dave or frank thought that the rag could have done anymore damage than i guess they would have torn down the top end and changed the oil..to make sure everything was good to go.. but that was not done...
my questions. was there ever a second oil change done? did dave check the oil or change it after the the oil pressure dropped?
anything is possible and there is always something that could have been done, but i think we all have established that nobody is perfect and cann't think to do everything everytime to prevent devistation....
the tare down will tell the truth.. and not anybody on here's opinion or thoughts.. chris will be taken care of no matter who's fault it is being frank, dave, or justice..
and no i am not nut hugging because i really like dave and i think he is a great tuner and mechanic, he has a true passion for this business..
and i am not saying that frank is not at fault becuase he very well could have made a mistake.. just explore all the options and wait for the facts after the engine is torn done before fingers are pointed.. and this has been said before nobody is perfect. its how the mistake is handled is what makes the difference..
fact is nobody knows what caused the motor to blow.. we really dont even know what is worng with the motor yet.. if frank is at fault then he will take full responsibility and pay for the complete rebuild.. as it was said before i am sure that if frank had been around alittle longer and had a shop project with a built motor he would offer it to chris, just like dave has until the problem was found with chris's motor...
if either dave or frank thought that the rag could have done anymore damage than i guess they would have torn down the top end and changed the oil..to make sure everything was good to go.. but that was not done...
my questions. was there ever a second oil change done? did dave check the oil or change it after the the oil pressure dropped?
anything is possible and there is always something that could have been done, but i think we all have established that nobody is perfect and cann't think to do everything everytime to prevent devistation....
the tare down will tell the truth.. and not anybody on here's opinion or thoughts.. chris will be taken care of no matter who's fault it is being frank, dave, or justice..
and no i am not nut hugging because i really like dave and i think he is a great tuner and mechanic, he has a true passion for this business..
and i am not saying that frank is not at fault becuase he very well could have made a mistake.. just explore all the options and wait for the facts after the engine is torn done before fingers are pointed.. and this has been said before nobody is perfect. its how the mistake is handled is what makes the difference..
The likely hood of the issue NOT being Franks fault roughly 10% given what happened...you can't get around that Im sorry.
The primary builder of this car...Frank.
The person who made a HUGE mistake the 2nd time around...Frank
The person who was at fault for the first build IMO ...Frank...it sucks...but that issue goes back to the person who has final assembled it.
So Dave and Justice (can't believe they've even been considered fault in my eyes) should be expected to step-up to make up for this? IMO...no.
Everyone says "shops" (plural) but I don't see it.
There was advice given by Dave that was not listened to the second time around...and there was a reason for it. Let Justice (the engine builder) assemble the motor. I honestly don't see the cause of the first motor failure being "powdercoating". I see the more likely culpret being something else that was deemed the "result" of.
06-28-2009, 07:27 AM
#1457
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Nick here is some pretty factual information as I see it.
The likely hood of the issue NOT being Franks fault roughly 10% given what happened...you can't get around that Im sorry.
The primary builder of this car...Frank.
The person who made a HUGE mistake the 2nd time around...Frank
The person who was at fault for the first build IMO ...Frank...it sucks...but that issue goes back to the person who has final assembled it.
So Dave and Justice (can't believe they've even been considered fault in my eyes) should be expected to step-up to make up for this? IMO...no.
Everyone says "shops" (plural) but I don't see it.
There was advice given by Dave that was not listened to the second time around...and there was a reason for it. Let Justice (the engine builder) assemble the motor. I honestly don't see the cause of the first motor failure being "powdercoating". I see the more likely culpret being something else that was deemed the "result" of.
The likely hood of the issue NOT being Franks fault roughly 10% given what happened...you can't get around that Im sorry.
The primary builder of this car...Frank.
The person who made a HUGE mistake the 2nd time around...Frank
The person who was at fault for the first build IMO ...Frank...it sucks...but that issue goes back to the person who has final assembled it.
So Dave and Justice (can't believe they've even been considered fault in my eyes) should be expected to step-up to make up for this? IMO...no.
Everyone says "shops" (plural) but I don't see it.
There was advice given by Dave that was not listened to the second time around...and there was a reason for it. Let Justice (the engine builder) assemble the motor. I honestly don't see the cause of the first motor failure being "powdercoating". I see the more likely culpret being something else that was deemed the "result" of.
I agree with you ...BUT...It has to remain "Shops" until the tear down is competed. None of us really know until we can see inside of this motor.
How do we know that Daves 10% involvement did not cause part of this problem....I am not saying that Dave is at fault....But it would be unfair to Frank to make this statement until the facts are in.....
06-28-2009, 01:24 PM
#1458
Again another oddball situation occured here. The motor was run VERY LITTLE prior to delivery via rollback to F:T since the car would not run on the reflash alone (reflash setup on previous motor) and the ViPEC was causing the car to idle at ~2500rpm. I have no idea on what the schedule of oil changes was or even what oil was in the car. As I stated earlier, I tried to be hands off as much as possible and only went down to F:T when the car wasn't making boost so I could see any issues/damages with my own eyes.
When the rag was found, Dave scoped everything into and out of the turbos for debris and determined that everything was OK. I have many pictures he took during this process, but IMO only an experienced tech could make much sense of them.
I got a voice mail from Frank last night while drinking my woes away with a friend (thats happening a lot right now), he was at a Maxima event all day yesterday and we will probably talk today. I'm still deciding if I will head down to the F:T carwash event today.
When the rag was found, Dave scoped everything into and out of the turbos for debris and determined that everything was OK. I have many pictures he took during this process, but IMO only an experienced tech could make much sense of them.
I got a voice mail from Frank last night while drinking my woes away with a friend (thats happening a lot right now), he was at a Maxima event all day yesterday and we will probably talk today. I'm still deciding if I will head down to the F:T carwash event today.
06-28-2009, 01:51 PM
#1459
Was nice meeting you today Chris and i wish it had been with a ride in your car.I hope the ride you took with Bert has changed your mind to complete the project as when i was talking to you it seemed that way.
Most importantly is good luck with what you decide to do as we are all pulling for you on this one.
Most importantly is good luck with what you decide to do as we are all pulling for you on this one.
