OMG What a Douchebag
05-28-2009 | 10:22 AM
#61
this is the part that is screwed up, the FULL GReddy kit includes everything (yes, it does include 440cc injectors) but the IC is a separate option
when the seller posted his thread, he just says:
The greddy TT kit has about 5000 miles usage. Comes with everything BUT the intercooler.
$4200 obo
no where does it say, its a GReddy certified full kit w/ 440cc injectors, it should be up to the buyer to ask for everything he is getting, in detail
also the buyer doesnt answer specific questions asked, i have asked him plenty of times why he went thru his CC company instead of paypal. since you can easily do a partial refund thru them
when the seller posted his thread, he just says:
The greddy TT kit has about 5000 miles usage. Comes with everything BUT the intercooler.
$4200 obo
no where does it say, its a GReddy certified full kit w/ 440cc injectors, it should be up to the buyer to ask for everything he is getting, in detail
also the buyer doesnt answer specific questions asked, i have asked him plenty of times why he went thru his CC company instead of paypal. since you can easily do a partial refund thru them
Your kidding right? A buyer is supposed to differentiate inbetween "Greddy TT kit with EVERYTHING" AND "CERTIFIED full kit"? Does even Greddy themsleves describe it this way? TT kit with EVERYTHING should or should not includ the 440 injector that are normally included yes? You do realize that your logic allows the seller to NOT provide most of the parts? Because he didn't specifically say turbos either. He could have given him only 1 or the wrong turbos because it didn't say "certified" or whatever. I seriously doubt that relieves him from the responsibility of providing turbos (or the incorrect ones)
Now THAT's on the seller. The BUYER on the other hand, should have got the units flow tested and checked prior. Especially when there was a question as to what injectors they were in the first place. So the buyer's intention of getting the labor back is 100% bullsheit.
Cost of injectors only should be the issue. Perhaps even splitting it. /issue
Last edited by Jeff92se; 05-28-2009 at 10:26 AM.
05-28-2009 | 10:22 AM
#62
MMC you are making my head hurt trying to make any sense of your logic. ANYONE that buys a used turbo kit has to expect a few missing pieces (except the guy that bought mine - parts labled and individually wrapped cause I am awesome), just look at any install tread after the buyer bought used.
The buyer is attempting to steal $1000 from the seller of slightly smaller injectors after the buyer installed them, tuned on them and has raced his car with them... seriously WTF???
If the buyer was so concerned than how come he did not upgrade the injectors already? If daddy can afford an attorney, he can give junior a few hundo for some 440cc injectors
.
This is just another example of a spoiled *** child thinking he can get away with BS and his daddy backing him up like a complete loser. The buyer may as well just sell his car, since he should be dragged from it and slapped silly if he ever attends another show or meet.
The buyer is attempting to steal $1000 from the seller of slightly smaller injectors after the buyer installed them, tuned on them and has raced his car with them... seriously WTF???
If the buyer was so concerned than how come he did not upgrade the injectors already? If daddy can afford an attorney, he can give junior a few hundo for some 440cc injectors
.This is just another example of a spoiled *** child thinking he can get away with BS and his daddy backing him up like a complete loser. The buyer may as well just sell his car, since he should be dragged from it and slapped silly if he ever attends another show or meet.
As to the $1000 - obviously a negotiating tactic. They ask for $1000 and would settle for much less. If they asked for the retail price of the injectors, the natural reaction would to counter they can be found used for $150... A Judge would not award them $1000 and the dad knows that.
05-28-2009 | 10:28 AM
#63
You just made a bunch of emotional arguments that sound good on a forum, but that's about it..
As to the $1000 - obviously a negotiating tactic. They ask for $1000 and would settle for much less. If they asked for the retail price of the injectors, the natural reaction would to counter they can be found used for $150... A Judge would not award them $1000 and the dad knows that.
As to the $1000 - obviously a negotiating tactic. They ask for $1000 and would settle for much less. If they asked for the retail price of the injectors, the natural reaction would to counter they can be found used for $150... A Judge would not award them $1000 and the dad knows that.
You can have all the logic and legal know how in the world and it doesn't mean squat when someone you jacked up on an internet sale shows up at your door.
Why negotiate, the seller has stated that he would be willing to pay the cost for the 440cc injectors already. The buyer is trying to get install costs and a re-tune out of it now. IMO anyone would tell the buyer to f-off at this point.
05-28-2009 | 10:30 AM
#64
You seem hung up on this keeping the money point, but it isn't one I'm making.
The price difference in injectors is not sufficient because the 330cc's in this case are of no value. A Judge would order the seller to produce the correct injectors or pay the retail value of new ones. The Judge would order the 330cc's returned to the seller. And of course the Judge would order the original payment made to the seller.
If the kid brings a lawyer and lets him do the talking, this is exactly how it would go down. If the kid goes alone and speaks like he types, he'll be ordered to pay the full amount with interest and a potential penalty with no compensation for the injectors.
The price difference in injectors is not sufficient because the 330cc's in this case are of no value. A Judge would order the seller to produce the correct injectors or pay the retail value of new ones. The Judge would order the 330cc's returned to the seller. And of course the Judge would order the original payment made to the seller.
If the kid brings a lawyer and lets him do the talking, this is exactly how it would go down. If the kid goes alone and speaks like he types, he'll be ordered to pay the full amount with interest and a potential penalty with no compensation for the injectors.
The ISSUE is that this kid has the money and the turbo kit, everything else really is either irrelevant and/or quite minor.
05-28-2009 | 10:38 AM
#65
there was a great reply posted on driver but the thread has been deleted. it basically stated: member seeked council of 2 separate lawyers. both lawyers stated, once the buyer installed these parts on the car, the seller is alleviated from liability. since there was no itemized bill of sale, the kit is sold as is. if the seller would take sweet talker to court, it would be an open and shut case in his favor. installation and tuning is not the responsibility of the seller.
the buyer is trying to weasel cash out of the seller. if the injectors were too small, he shouldnt have installed them in his car, especially if he thought it could cause damage to his engine.
the buyer is trying to weasel cash out of the seller. if the injectors were too small, he shouldnt have installed them in his car, especially if he thought it could cause damage to his engine.
05-28-2009 | 11:03 AM
#66
Your kidding right? A buyer is supposed to differentiate inbetween "Greddy TT kit with EVERYTHING" AND "CERTIFIED full kit"? Does even Greddy themsleves describe it this way? TT kit with EVERYTHING should or should not includ the 440 injector that are normally included yes? You do realize that your logic allows the seller to NOT provide most of the parts? Because he didn't specifically say turbos either. He could have given him only 1 or the wrong turbos because it didn't say "certified" or whatever. I seriously doubt that relieves him from the responsibility of providing turbos (or the incorrect ones)
Now THAT's on the seller. The BUYER on the other hand, should have got the units flow tested and checked prior. Especially when there was a question as to what injectors they were in the first place. So the buyer's intention of getting the labor back is 100% bullsheit.
Cost of injectors only should be the issue. Perhaps even splitting it. /issue
Now THAT's on the seller. The BUYER on the other hand, should have got the units flow tested and checked prior. Especially when there was a question as to what injectors they were in the first place. So the buyer's intention of getting the labor back is 100% bullsheit.
Cost of injectors only should be the issue. Perhaps even splitting it. /issue
no doubt the seller is a crappy seller for not being specific but i dont know bout you, but if im paying $4k for something, i wanna know every last detail, you know? even if its not stated, i will ask
AND, he still does not know what size injectors are on there, he thinks they are 370cc cause thats what his tuner said but at 370rwhp even the 440cc are gonna be almost maxed out
Last edited by escobar929; 05-28-2009 at 11:06 AM.
05-28-2009 | 11:18 AM
#67
there was a great reply posted on driver but the thread has been deleted. it basically stated: member seeked council of 2 separate lawyers. both lawyers stated, once the buyer installed these parts on the car, the seller is alleviated from liability. since there was no itemized bill of sale, the kit is sold as is. if the seller would take sweet talker to court, it would be an open and shut case in his favor. installation and tuning is not the responsibility of the seller.
the buyer is trying to weasel cash out of the seller. if the injectors were too small, he shouldnt have installed them in his car, especially if he thought it could cause damage to his engine.
the buyer is trying to weasel cash out of the seller. if the injectors were too small, he shouldnt have installed them in his car, especially if he thought it could cause damage to his engine.
Originally Posted by xdEnbOyx
To sweettalker:
My dad does a LOT of business both in the US and in China. He owns two restaurants here and a food court in China. He's previously done a lot of business dealing with retail and installation. Naturally in his business, he needs to have at LEAST one very close attorney who he can depend on. Well, he has three in the states and two in China. Why so many? I have no idea, but it seems like he consults all of them for their opinions when needed. That way he can get multiple viewpoints on his cases so he is that much more prepared and able to compose a defense. Anyway, I was having a casual conversation with my dad over lunch today and this topic came up. I told him about your situation and what Russell is saying in his defense and my dad just looked at me and said "you're kidding me, right?" He then proceeded to call two of his lawyers here so that he could share the story (they're friends outside of work as well and usually call each other up just to talk). The first guy said this case is so black and white that the only purpose an attorney would serve is to make you look good. The second guy was rather funny. He talked about how hard-headed Russell is and how it's going to cost him a lot of money in fees for both his and your attorney (you can sue for the cost of your attorney and if you win the case which you will, you'll be awarded that as well). He also said if you wanted to publicly humiliate him across the world, go on Judge Judy with a t-shirt and jeans and you'll still win with the added LOL from everyone. So take your pick: my dad's first attorney who has 34 years experience (graduated from Yale Law) who says you'll win, or my dad's second attorney who has 23 years experience (graduated from Princeton Law) who also says you'd win.
Note that these judgments are based on what you and Russell have presented. The attorneys said Russell has no case because of a few critical errors on his part:
First: he installed your kit KNOWING there might be problems.
Secondly, he waited six months before initiating a charge back, WELL after he has had possession, used, and IS STILL CURRENTLY USING the kit.
Thirdly, the fact that he initiated the charge back while holding on to your kit is 100% COMPLETELY UNJUSTIFIED. Had he returned the kit to you BEFORE initiating the charge back, there (obviously) wouldn't have been an issue.
Lastly, because the kit was used and there was no legally binding contract pertaining to warranty/return policies, it is the BUYER'S responsibility to confirm the working order and condition of the kit PRIOR to purchase. The kit is automatically sold AS-IS unless otherwise stated which clearly wasn't, so the BUYER ultimately is SOL if something is wrong. You stated in your FS thread that the kit includes everything except the intercooler. You did not specify the flow rate of the injectors and when Russell realized they might be wrong, go back to reason one: he installed it anyway, so you are cleared of any guilt in that regard. You sent everything but the intercooler as you stated, so you are again cleared.
They also commented on the fact that as soon as the buyer installs and uses the product, the relationship between buyer and seller ENDS (unless there is a warranty/return policy which again wasn't negotiated). This is because as soon as the product is used, there is no way in telling whether or not malfunction occurred as a result of the current user or the previous user. Again, the newest owner is fully responsible for confirming the condition of the item PRIOR to using it so that any defects or anomalies can be detected.
I can go in circles all day with this stuff so I'll stop here. Basically this is what I've gathered from years of common sense and from what my dad's lawyers concluded after hearing the situation. They are obviously very intelligent people based on the years of experience and where they studied law. Most experienced lawyers can draw conclusions very quickly and already know how a case is going to end, and IMHO, you're looking VERY, VERY good. Good luck to you.
My dad does a LOT of business both in the US and in China. He owns two restaurants here and a food court in China. He's previously done a lot of business dealing with retail and installation. Naturally in his business, he needs to have at LEAST one very close attorney who he can depend on. Well, he has three in the states and two in China. Why so many? I have no idea, but it seems like he consults all of them for their opinions when needed. That way he can get multiple viewpoints on his cases so he is that much more prepared and able to compose a defense. Anyway, I was having a casual conversation with my dad over lunch today and this topic came up. I told him about your situation and what Russell is saying in his defense and my dad just looked at me and said "you're kidding me, right?" He then proceeded to call two of his lawyers here so that he could share the story (they're friends outside of work as well and usually call each other up just to talk). The first guy said this case is so black and white that the only purpose an attorney would serve is to make you look good. The second guy was rather funny. He talked about how hard-headed Russell is and how it's going to cost him a lot of money in fees for both his and your attorney (you can sue for the cost of your attorney and if you win the case which you will, you'll be awarded that as well). He also said if you wanted to publicly humiliate him across the world, go on Judge Judy with a t-shirt and jeans and you'll still win with the added LOL from everyone. So take your pick: my dad's first attorney who has 34 years experience (graduated from Yale Law) who says you'll win, or my dad's second attorney who has 23 years experience (graduated from Princeton Law) who also says you'd win.
Note that these judgments are based on what you and Russell have presented. The attorneys said Russell has no case because of a few critical errors on his part:
First: he installed your kit KNOWING there might be problems.
Secondly, he waited six months before initiating a charge back, WELL after he has had possession, used, and IS STILL CURRENTLY USING the kit.
Thirdly, the fact that he initiated the charge back while holding on to your kit is 100% COMPLETELY UNJUSTIFIED. Had he returned the kit to you BEFORE initiating the charge back, there (obviously) wouldn't have been an issue.
Lastly, because the kit was used and there was no legally binding contract pertaining to warranty/return policies, it is the BUYER'S responsibility to confirm the working order and condition of the kit PRIOR to purchase. The kit is automatically sold AS-IS unless otherwise stated which clearly wasn't, so the BUYER ultimately is SOL if something is wrong. You stated in your FS thread that the kit includes everything except the intercooler. You did not specify the flow rate of the injectors and when Russell realized they might be wrong, go back to reason one: he installed it anyway, so you are cleared of any guilt in that regard. You sent everything but the intercooler as you stated, so you are again cleared.
They also commented on the fact that as soon as the buyer installs and uses the product, the relationship between buyer and seller ENDS (unless there is a warranty/return policy which again wasn't negotiated). This is because as soon as the product is used, there is no way in telling whether or not malfunction occurred as a result of the current user or the previous user. Again, the newest owner is fully responsible for confirming the condition of the item PRIOR to using it so that any defects or anomalies can be detected.
I can go in circles all day with this stuff so I'll stop here. Basically this is what I've gathered from years of common sense and from what my dad's lawyers concluded after hearing the situation. They are obviously very intelligent people based on the years of experience and where they studied law. Most experienced lawyers can draw conclusions very quickly and already know how a case is going to end, and IMHO, you're looking VERY, VERY good. Good luck to you.
05-28-2009 | 11:34 AM
#69
You did not specify the flow rate of the injectors
"AS-IS" might get you out of legal hot water but it's still a BS thing to do to misrepresent parts.
05-28-2009 | 11:39 AM
#70
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,470
Likes: 5
From: Arizona
Wrong. When you describe the kit as a Greddy TT and "complete", you are implying that the injectors in the kit are the ones typically offered in a Greddy TT kit. Which are I assume 440s. If not, then you can't describe the kit as "complete" or "with everything but the IC". If you just said "A TT kit with everything but IC" that would be different.
"AS-IS" might get you out of legal hot water but it's still a BS thing to do to misrepresent parts.
"AS-IS" might get you out of legal hot water but it's still a BS thing to do to misrepresent parts.
05-28-2009 | 11:45 AM
#72
Case in point! I agree with the lawyers and everyone on this one. Russel's in trouble. The best thing he should do is pony up the cash minus the cost of injectors and call it day.
If he wants new ones which Sweet talker agreed to pay for, that's as far as this should go.
In fact, he can buy them from any one of our vendors who would happily itemize the bill and send that to Sweettalker and Russel and call it a day.
That is his best option. Can't sue for emotional or punative damages on what could have happened for all the reasons we have already mentioned.
/rant
personally I think Russel, spent the cash and is stalling until he can somehow find a way out of paying the part he owes
Wow...I never thought of that...he probably IS using the 440s and doesn't even know it. OMG that would make this whole fiasco an epic case of
If he wants new ones which Sweet talker agreed to pay for, that's as far as this should go.
In fact, he can buy them from any one of our vendors who would happily itemize the bill and send that to Sweettalker and Russel and call it a day.
That is his best option. Can't sue for emotional or punative damages on what could have happened for all the reasons we have already mentioned.
/rant
personally I think Russel, spent the cash and is stalling until he can somehow find a way out of paying the part he owes
Last edited by tiguy99; 05-28-2009 at 11:50 AM.
05-28-2009 | 11:49 AM
#73
If the buyer AND seller don't know then a split is in order here.
05-28-2009 | 11:51 AM
#74
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,470
Likes: 5
From: Arizona
Again, incompetent tuning shop... IMO.
05-28-2009 | 11:56 AM
#75
Hmm.. good point. But since the buyer is holding all the $ right now.... a compromise is best. Since the seller clearly had no idea what they were, he can't hold that standard to the buyer either.
05-28-2009 | 12:06 PM
#76
You seem hung up on this keeping the money point, but it isn't one I'm making.
The price difference in injectors is not sufficient because the 330cc's in this case are of no value. A Judge would order the seller to produce the correct injectors or pay the retail value of new ones. The Judge would order the 330cc's returned to the seller. And of course the Judge would order the original payment made to the seller.
If the kid brings a lawyer and lets him do the talking, this is exactly how it would go down. If the kid goes alone and speaks like he types, he'll be ordered to pay the full amount with interest and a potential penalty with no compensation for the injectors.
The price difference in injectors is not sufficient because the 330cc's in this case are of no value. A Judge would order the seller to produce the correct injectors or pay the retail value of new ones. The Judge would order the 330cc's returned to the seller. And of course the Judge would order the original payment made to the seller.
If the kid brings a lawyer and lets him do the talking, this is exactly how it would go down. If the kid goes alone and speaks like he types, he'll be ordered to pay the full amount with interest and a potential penalty with no compensation for the injectors.
No judge is going to look past the fact the kid stole the kit.. he kept the money and installed the kit.. stealing.. they arn't even going to care wether the injectors are 440, 330, 1000... the fact is he kept the money and the kit.. its stealing.. technically its Grand Larceny and thats a felony
05-28-2009 | 12:18 PM
#77
how can i not be hung up on the kid keeping the money and the kit.. that is the facts of the story.. the kid has the money and the kit.. thats stealing..
No judge is going to look past the fact the kid stole the kit.. he kept the money and installed the kit.. stealing.. they arn't even going to care wether the injectors are 440, 330, 1000... the fact is he kept the money and the kit.. its stealing.. technically its Grand Larceny and thats a felony
No judge is going to look past the fact the kid stole the kit.. he kept the money and installed the kit.. stealing.. they arn't even going to care wether the injectors are 440, 330, 1000... the fact is he kept the money and the kit.. its stealing.. technically its Grand Larceny and thats a felony
2nd - no DA is going to take this on to prosecute. So no criminal charges. The Larceny charge would be shakey as the court would need to rule on the intent of the buyer (or stealer as you refer). The question would center around the buyer depriving the seller of his money. If the day 1 intent was to steal the kit it has not be stated here. What I see is a person potentially making a bad choice on how to settle a dispute.
05-28-2009 | 12:23 PM
#78
So conflicting information was relayed to a dad and then relayed in quick phone conversations to a now 4th or 5th party who came to these conclusions? And then the answers were relayed through 2 more people? 
The question is not if the injectors are faulty - it is if they were the correct size. That is not a warranty issue.
The question is not if the injectors are faulty - it is if they were the correct size. That is not a warranty issue.
05-28-2009 | 12:24 PM
#79
Gotta a gree with Doug on this one.. The buyer reversed the payment and has the kit.. It does IMO equal stealing. Now how it's legally handled is a whole different story. Technically i would think it would open shut deal. Buyer buys from seller accepts package then somehow takes his money back. I'd sure the cc company and the buyer..
05-28-2009 | 12:28 PM
#80
It's clear that the guy reversed the entire charge AND waited to post until he did in order to hold all the cards during the negotiation. Ala setting the ridiculous terms of subtracting $1,000 from the deal.