momentum performance
06-08-2009, 08:23 AM
#101
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No you guys are claiming they don't apply. The pressure can equalize (although there will be a slight difference) the way you have claimed the difference is that one bank is doing all of the "work" to drive the turbocharger which raises EGT's in that bank and will have some effect on AFR's.... You would learn the concept of work as an engineer before "fluid dynamics" I'm guessing you have never taken either class as it seems from your post that your implying that pressure drives the turbine wheel (which is not true)
Nice try... your talking to someone who has personally worked on CART engines they have very well placed waste gates on both banks.
Actually sequential turbo's have all the engines exhaust ports going through both turbo's so one wastegate is venting all of the cylinders, maybe your confusing them with twin turbo setups which have 2 wastegates.
no the turbo doesn't "care" the engine on the other hand does "care"
As for the STS kit comments its an easier place to put them but I doubt anyone is arguing it a more efficient place to put them (i hope) either way its irrelevant.
Nice try... your talking to someone who has personally worked on CART engines they have very well placed waste gates on both banks.
Actually sequential turbo's have all the engines exhaust ports going through both turbo's so one wastegate is venting all of the cylinders, maybe your confusing them with twin turbo setups which have 2 wastegates.
no the turbo doesn't "care" the engine on the other hand does "care"
As for the STS kit comments its an easier place to put them but I doubt anyone is arguing it a more efficient place to put them (i hope) either way its irrelevant.
Again....wrong on ALL counts. Ever taken apart the turbos on a stock supra? One wastegate...front turbo (just one example).
Do your history on C.A.R.T.... cleary you were successful there and is why you are now making turbo kits for Nissans now.
Both pressure and velocity drive the turbine wheel (that's how boost creap happens). What function is it that you think the wastegate does? Dump velocity?
The engine doesn't "care" until the backpressure exceeds manifold pressure and what overlap "cleansing" capabilities it has. Pressure goes to the lowest delta, and manifold pressure (when higher than backpressure) pushes the unburned exhuast out during overlap so the intake charge is clean. Once backpressure exceeds manifold pressure the effeciency of the engine during overlap drops dramatically. I doubt that the back pressure at 7 to 10psi is ANY where near exceeding MAP. If memory serves, they made over 650whp on a single 35r with that kit (backpressure being the worst it could possibly get).
So what is it that you actually have here, as cleary you have NOT done your homework to back these statements.
Last edited by 1ZweetZ; 06-08-2009 at 08:48 AM.
06-08-2009, 09:56 AM
#102
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CLEARLY the "Momentum" for Momentous autofarts is going backwards at this point.
Nice start though here on my350 way to show your "first hand knowledge" and really back it up with confirmed data... uh I mean... yeah.
Any plans on how to get yourself outta the hole youre digging to China right now?
Maybe Relentless, or VRT or SGP or MRC can help you out on this one... oh wait... yeah
Nice start though here on my350 way to show your "first hand knowledge" and really back it up with confirmed data... uh I mean... yeah.
Any plans on how to get yourself outta the hole youre digging to China right now?
Maybe Relentless, or VRT or SGP or MRC can help you out on this one... oh wait... yeah
06-08-2009, 10:23 AM
#105
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Like I said it wouldnt completely equalize but it would to an extent. My theory already exists googe "work physics" and read it if you need a refresher. Even if AF was the same the difference in EGTs is at least not desirable.
Like I already stated your mixing up twin and sequential turbo's the way a sequential system works is ALL of the exhaust gas goes through one turbo then into the other this is different than "twin" turbo setups where each turbo is fed by 3 cylinders (in which case there would be two wastegates). I have take apart plenty of supras the sequential ones only need one wastegate because all 6 cylinders go through both turbos.
I've done my history I have put my hands on them and touched both wastegates have you?... another picture since the first seems to have issues:
Flow is the word your looking for.
Back pressure is ALMOST always higher than intake manifold pressure go back and look at my datalog. Only a 400whp and a certain RPM to I achieve higher than a 1.0 ratio of MAP/EMAP this is only possible because of a very efficient setup and proper intake and exhaust runner tuning. Backpressure ALWAYS matters MAP/EMAP is pretty much the definition of efficiency for an engine.
Like I already stated your mixing up twin and sequential turbo's the way a sequential system works is ALL of the exhaust gas goes through one turbo then into the other this is different than "twin" turbo setups where each turbo is fed by 3 cylinders (in which case there would be two wastegates). I have take apart plenty of supras the sequential ones only need one wastegate because all 6 cylinders go through both turbos.
I've done my history I have put my hands on them and touched both wastegates have you?... another picture since the first seems to have issues:
Flow is the word your looking for.
Back pressure is ALMOST always higher than intake manifold pressure go back and look at my datalog. Only a 400whp and a certain RPM to I achieve higher than a 1.0 ratio of MAP/EMAP this is only possible because of a very efficient setup and proper intake and exhaust runner tuning. Backpressure ALWAYS matters MAP/EMAP is pretty much the definition of efficiency for an engine.
This is humorous at best, you were taking specifics, and now are generalizing... saying "Flow" is like saying "color". WHich color? Flow is the result.
I'm not mixing up anything, you are. Sequential turbos are DIFFERENT than straight twins. The sequential turbo's on the Supra for example, block off one turbo completely, and force all cylinders through one turbo. Then when it's ready for the second turbo, the gate opens and the second turbo comes on line. There is ONLY ONE wastegate in the system and it is on the front turbo, and 3 cylinders feed each turbo.
Congratulations you found a picture of a modern C.A.R.T. engine... all you are trying to do now is divert from the issue. The issue is that you have NO data to back up what is actually going on, you start with specifics which you say are obvious, then you back down and start stating other theories and making statements of things that are "less desirable". I'm sure Intense can give you the pressure ratio's you are mentioning because they use ProEFI which uses Pressure ratio for it's load axis.
a single 38 wastgate for 2000whp, every thing has changed u old wooden shops !!!
06-08-2009, 12:14 PM
#110
this thread is soo funny. so many nuthuggers!
so you are saying given an option to have the wastegate after the merge so both sides of the exhaust flow even thru it, or place it on one side of the exhaust so its mainly dumping 1 exhaust, you would honestly pick the way PL did it?
not saying the PL way doesnt work, but why wouldnt you want it after both sides of the exhaust merge????
so you are saying given an option to have the wastegate after the merge so both sides of the exhaust flow even thru it, or place it on one side of the exhaust so its mainly dumping 1 exhaust, you would honestly pick the way PL did it?
not saying the PL way doesnt work, but why wouldnt you want it after both sides of the exhaust merge????
06-08-2009, 01:17 PM
#111
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this thread is soo funny. so many nuthuggers!
so you are saying given an option to have the wastegate after the merge so both sides of the exhaust flow even thru it, or place it on one side of the exhaust so its mainly dumping 1 exhaust, you would honestly pick the way PL did it?
not saying the PL way doesnt work, but why wouldnt you want it after both sides of the exhaust merge????
so you are saying given an option to have the wastegate after the merge so both sides of the exhaust flow even thru it, or place it on one side of the exhaust so its mainly dumping 1 exhaust, you would honestly pick the way PL did it?
not saying the PL way doesnt work, but why wouldnt you want it after both sides of the exhaust merge????
In a perfect world, EVERYTHING would be DEAD equal, and dead center. Things would be more asthetically pleasing, and these discussions wouldn't need to take place. However in a perfect world, we wouldn't be stuck with a V6, or 3.5 to 4 liters of displacement, turbo lag wouldn't exist, you wouldn't have to change the stock rods and pistons, or need to run race gas to make big power. However things aren't perfect, the Z was not designed to be turbocharged! There is next to no room for a "proper" turbo install, and I'll take a turbo placement that has a proper oil return so it doesn't smoke or require a pump to scavange oil return. If nothing else, the people that have these kits are happy, and have no complaints on how well they work. What else do you want?
06-08-2009, 01:33 PM
#112
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[QUOTE=1ZweetZ;7418581]In a perfect world, EVERYTHING would be DEAD equal, and dead center. Things would be more asthetically pleasing, and these discussions wouldn't need to take place. However in a perfect world, we wouldn't be stuck with a V6, or 3.5 to 4 liters of displacement, turbo lag wouldn't exist, you wouldn't have to change the stock rods and pistons, or need to run race gas to make big power. However things aren't perfect, the Z was not designed to be turbocharged! There is next to no room for a "proper" turbo install, and I'll take a turbo placement that has a proper oil return so it doesn't smoke or require a pump to scavange oil return. If nothing else, the people that have these kits are happy, and have no complaints on how well they work. What else do you want?[/QUOTE]
Strippers
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06-08-2009, 03:42 PM
#113
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Well. I don't know about you all, but I'm getting sick and tired of reading and getting calls about all of the PowerLab end users with bad wastegate placement, boost creep and boost spike... errr.. wait.. that's never happened.
Carry on!
Darren
Edit: We have a sale on PowerLab turbo kits btw. See my signature. Yes, I'm an opportunist at this point. What are you going to say now?
Carry on!
Darren
Edit: We have a sale on PowerLab turbo kits btw. See my signature. Yes, I'm an opportunist at this point. What are you going to say now?
Last edited by INTENSEPOWER; 06-08-2009 at 03:45 PM.
06-08-2009, 05:01 PM
#115
WTF are you blabbing about. I asked a simple question, which is the only thing being disputed on 7 pages of nonsense. Its not a perfect world, but apparently there are 2 options for wastegate placement.
Would you or would you not want the wastegate after the exhaust merge so that both exhaust paths flow equally thru the wastegate.
Simple question. The PL doesnt do that, the Momentum kit does.
Everything else equal, why would you pick the PL piping?
Did Intense test both ways and determine that a 1 bank biased wastegate was best? Did they do 7000$ in testing to determine that? Please post the data Intense!
Get real. It was the easiest place fpr them to mount the wastegate.
I dont know how you guys can hate on another kit when intense/PL didnt do any testing on wastegate locations either.
Hello pot, this is the kettle.....
Would you or would you not want the wastegate after the exhaust merge so that both exhaust paths flow equally thru the wastegate.
Simple question. The PL doesnt do that, the Momentum kit does.
Everything else equal, why would you pick the PL piping?
Did Intense test both ways and determine that a 1 bank biased wastegate was best? Did they do 7000$ in testing to determine that? Please post the data Intense!
Get real. It was the easiest place fpr them to mount the wastegate.
I dont know how you guys can hate on another kit when intense/PL didnt do any testing on wastegate locations either.
Hello pot, this is the kettle.....
In a perfect world, EVERYTHING would be DEAD equal, and dead center. Things would be more asthetically pleasing, and these discussions wouldn't need to take place. However in a perfect world, we wouldn't be stuck with a V6, or 3.5 to 4 liters of displacement, turbo lag wouldn't exist, you wouldn't have to change the stock rods and pistons, or need to run race gas to make big power. However things aren't perfect, the Z was not designed to be turbocharged! There is next to no room for a "proper" turbo install, and I'll take a turbo placement that has a proper oil return so it doesn't smoke or require a pump to scavange oil return. If nothing else, the people that have these kits are happy, and have no complaints on how well they work. What else do you want?
06-08-2009, 06:52 PM
#116
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Apparently in 7 pages, you've missed the point. The burden of proof doesn't fall on Intense/PL because mom motors is making claims/contentions that have no empirical/quantitative data to support it. The proof that the wastegate is in A correct place is the dozens upon dozens of end users who haven't ever complained or even seen boost creep/spike (as mom motors originally claimed without knowing it... and then back peddled). This isn't rocket science. The function of the gate is to release pressure, correct? Does it do this w/out creating any discernible negative affect? Yes. What else is there to discuss? PL wanted to route the wastegate into the exhaust (not dumping to atmosphere as other kits do) for a few reasons -- hence the placement of the gate in the crossover. It works, get over it.
We sold another PowerLab (G35) kit today actually and the most comical part of the sale was the customer discussing this thread. He said that the kit meets all of his requirements and that he knew that he could trust us for tech support down the road as we've been in business for 10 years now and a vendor here for 5. In the end, that's what people want: a quality, tried and true product and a company with long, positive tenure, transparency, and support. The various vendors here that have cut their teeth: Sound Performance, Forged, GTM, SFR, Injected, and AAM, would have been equally an option for kit and vendor too.
Please keep bumping this thread.
Darren
We sold another PowerLab (G35) kit today actually and the most comical part of the sale was the customer discussing this thread. He said that the kit meets all of his requirements and that he knew that he could trust us for tech support down the road as we've been in business for 10 years now and a vendor here for 5. In the end, that's what people want: a quality, tried and true product and a company with long, positive tenure, transparency, and support. The various vendors here that have cut their teeth: Sound Performance, Forged, GTM, SFR, Injected, and AAM, would have been equally an option for kit and vendor too.
Please keep bumping this thread.
Darren
06-08-2009, 07:21 PM
#117
^ you are correct in all points. people want a trusting vendor as much as a quality product.
This thread turned into a witch hunt because another shop dare say that the wastegate location on the PL kit was not optimum. Just because something works in no way shape of form dictates its the best.
Granted, saying the pL wastegate location was very flawed (or however it was put) was not PC, its just as ignorant to say the mom. location is not more ideal.
neither company knows for sure and thats the bottom line.
This thread turned into a witch hunt because another shop dare say that the wastegate location on the PL kit was not optimum. Just because something works in no way shape of form dictates its the best.
Granted, saying the pL wastegate location was very flawed (or however it was put) was not PC, its just as ignorant to say the mom. location is not more ideal.
neither company knows for sure and thats the bottom line.
06-08-2009, 07:36 PM
#118
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All of this "burden of proof" stuff made me giggle a bit. The PL kit seems just fine and doesn't need the entire state of AZ getting their panties in a wad to jump to its defense.
Just to be clear, are all of the AZ supporters group inc (trademark) saying that the waste gate couldn't be placed better? Simple yes or no.
Just to be clear, are all of the AZ supporters group inc (trademark) saying that the waste gate couldn't be placed better? Simple yes or no.
06-08-2009, 08:01 PM
#119
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Originally Posted by Jason333
The PL kit seems just fine and doesn't need the entire state of AZ getting their panties in a wad to jump to its defense.
Originally Posted by Jason333
Just to be clear, are all of the AZ supporters group inc (trademark) saying that the waste gate couldn't be placed better? Simple yes or no.
Real engineers with decades of experience building race cars, turbo systems, fuel systems, tuning race cars, and racing on professional levels built the PowerLab ST. Do you not think that they considered and discussed at length the placement of the wastegate in the system? Really? Does it escape you that the conversation you've brought to the table wasn't discussed and tested at length?
Darren
06-08-2009, 08:43 PM
#120
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Scott do you know what the build sheet is for the blue G? And what PSI is it running in the dyno posted on this website? http://www.nationalspeedinc.com/proj...-infiniti-g35/ also do you have any videos of the kit yet?