I was just reading the article in Road & Track on the GReddy TT 350Z and while the GReddy TT setup took a full sec. off the 1/4 mi time they have stated that the TT kit will be $6000 ! Not including the interccoler (another $1600) !!! Their claim is 370+ hp. My question is will anybody buy this setup ? That is $7600 for the package, and now you can get the ATI Procharger setup for under $5000. That is not even talking about the more complex installation costs between the SC & TT. So you are looking at roughly a $3000-$3250 (incl. installation) difference between the two. The ATI has already been dynoed at 370+ hp to the wheels. I understand the TT might be the better setup for future performance gains but $3000+ is very tough to swallow. Drop about $2000 off the price or throw in the IC with the kit and we can talk but until then holy sh*t that is expensive.

 

Here is my opinion:

If all you want is about 370rwhp, both the ATI SC and Greddy can do it. The cost advantage is to the ATI as you stated.

The advantage of the TT comes if you plan on boosting more and going for 500+ hp. To do this, you would be replacing internal parts in the motor thus adding to the cost you stated above which is already expensive. The TT allows more flexibility to boosting the system compared to the ATI (which you could possibly go from 7 lbs boost to a 9 lb boost pulley).

It appears companies like Greddy are going for CARB certification (smog legal) thus the low hp gains as posted. This will make it appeal to a greater market yet allow a stage 2 upgrade which would include internal mods as I mentioned.

Maybe if Greddy included a warranty on the entire motor, it might make more sense for the added cost. At this point, the ATI covers the SC parts under warranty thus the several people on this forum that have blown motors do not have a warranty on their motor. I would suggest you select a first rate installer/tuner if you are going ATI unless you have money to burn so to speak.

I think what you need to do is decide what your goal is. If you want your Z reliable, you might want to go NA and add up to about 45hp more as the Mossy Nissan Z has done. Another route in this hp range is the Stillen SC with a complete motor warranty. Again, these are for relativitly modest hp gains.

If you are willing to take more of a "risk" with your motor and want your car to go beyond "peppy", than the ATI SC is going to give you 365-375 rwhp. Most people have not had problems but a couple have. Do some research on this and decide for yourself if it is a tuning issue.

If you want large amounts of hp, then TT is the way to go. There is a debate on what this VQ motor can handle as far as hp goes. This is not a cast irn block etc thus I am sure we will see some motors get blown up trying to pusch the 500+hp barrier. If you want that much hp and can afford to risk damage to your motor, the TT seems like a perfect option for you.

If taking a risk bothers you, keep your car stock and hopefully get 200K miles out of it. If you want to reduce your risk, drive it stock for another year, let all the TT and SC kits come out, be installed on others Z's and then decide which is best based on their experiences.

Jeff

 

About the only thing I can think of that's better is that a TT offers the capability of turning up the boost with the simple twist of ****. Other than that, they're the same.

If you don't mind being stuck with whatever boost level you paid for than go SC, if you got the money and can deal with the extra heat produced by a TT then go that way.

 

theres also no whining sound w/ the tt

 

I understand the benefits of the TT setup vs. the SC but just think for the $2600 (Probably closer to $3000+ after installation) you could get :

GReddy TT setup ($6000)
GReddy Intercooler ($1600)


or

ATI Procharger incl. intercooler($5000)
Borla True Dual Cat Back ($800)
Borla Headers ($600-$700)
High Flow Cats ($400)
Pulley (push boost from 7psi to 9 psi) ($300)
AFC ($400)

I guess if you are considering the GReddy setup you are already anticipating dropping $10,000+ so what's a few more grand here or there. I don't have a problem with the setup. It looks like GReddy will make a 1st class setup, but at probably $3000+ over the ATI Procharger setup that is hard to swallow on a $30K car. It's not a Ferrari or Porsche where you drop $20K-$50K on a performance setup. Well, let's hope for one hell of a "group buy" discount.

 

Please don't take this as a flame, I think any form of FI is better then NA. (Addicted to boost) So I'm not bagging the turbo's at all, I just hate seeing a good product get a bad name over some miss information.

Well right now that would be the ATI only! Since it's the only form of FI you can get right now, unless you are getting a one off custom turbo. And well it's been almost a year now for the Greddy kits promise of arrival to come through. So I am starting to feel sorry for the people that have been holding their breath.

Boost is Boost.......well intercooled boost to intercooled boost. Both would have to upgrade the motor, when pushing the factory parts. What do you mean "more flexable" ?!?!?! I will cover this in a moment.

There is more then just a 7psi pulley, and a 9psi pulley. Boost is just the amount of restriction....this has been covered on this forum many times. So there is no such thing as a " __psi pulley and a __ psi pulley...it all is releavent to motor mods, altitude, etc.

One the kits I have installed, (according to the ATI owners manual) the blowers redline was 80,000 RPM. But the blower had to be slowed down to 60,000 RPM to help keep the boost low, on the stock motors. If you have ever had a supercharged car/truck, you would know that something as slight as 7-8K RPM change on a supercharger is a BIG change in boost numbers. So to me the little ATI, has TONS of room to grow!

What does low HP have to do with smog legal? Infact it has nothing to do with the certification at all. I have many friends in the industry, and many that make products that require certification. And can tell you for a FACT HP level has nothing to do with getting a certification or not.

I do recall when my buddy purchased his ATI, he did inquire on the smog issue. And they stated that it was going to be smogged very shortly. Pretty much every other ATI product is smog legal, I wouldn't see them changing that pattern for the 350Z.

Most aftermarket companys do cover their products that they have created, and R and D'ed. ATI or Greddy or PE, don't build your motor, why would they cover it?

"They" can't control your wife/buddy/yourself borowing the car, and putting 87 octane in it, and hurting the motor.

"They" can't control the gas station to make sure the right octane is in the right pump.

"They" can't contol you taking your car to "timmy and billys performance shop" and not having quality work done.

These are just three factors that I came up with off the top of my head. If your going to make changes to your car, in order to make it faster then the average guy, be prepaired to make a sacrafice here and there, that is the way Motorsports is, always has always will.

If anything I just said scares anyone you need to take up a hobby like quilting, where you won't have to worry about your cars motor. I can't stand hearing whining on the internet, about how somones motor blew up with they were running a N20 kit... ever notice that it's hardly ever the owners fault....blame always gets placed on somone eles.

From what I have read about the 2 ATI cars that hurt motors (the pages and pages and pages) is........... that there are two people that hurt motors, both resulting from bad tuning, or bad gas, or pre-existing causes. the blower made boost, it was doing it's job...how is it the blowers fault?!?!

Being that right now ATI has the only readly available Forced Induction kit offered, OF course something is going to happen. There are to many factors involved for every car on the planted to be the exact same. It's not the utopia world we all dream of. (where I am married to carmen electra cough cough)

I am pretty sure if you go with a FI set up, weither it be PE, Greddy, or ATI. You will want a very good installer. And it has nothing to do with "money to burn" It's almost more important to have a better installer with the TT kits since they are more complex then that blower. Even something as simple as the oil lines to/from the turbos. Since the ATI doesn't have a oil line going to it, there is no need to poke holes in a new cars oil pan. What happens with a Greddy kit is being installed, and they are tapping the oil pan, and leave metal shavings in the pan......is greddy going to cover the motor, when there is a oil pump failure?

I will mildly agree with this post. But I have to add, that with a well set up/tuned FI car. you can be just as dependable if not more then a NA car. (reason for the "more", is that high HP high compression race motors have very short life spans due to the bearing loads of high compression on constaint use. Low compression, boosted motors, only have high bearing loads when the boost starts comming in, thus less bearing loads during daily abuse.)

I think 370 is more then peppy, considering they make over a hundered less then that stock.

..::Start::.. Hmmm...... one car had N20 before the blower, and was known the have the N20 and the Fuel jets backwards. Hmmmmm doesn't take a PHD to figure that one out. The other looks like it was WAY to lean, and was on it's way home from having a "custom tune" when it suffered failure.....hmmmm ..::Research Done::..

Best thing I heard out of this thread.


Not a flame, just supporting the FI concept
EA

 

Why hasn't a variable pulley been developed for modern superchargers. They had them on the VS57 McCulloch SC back in the 40's and 50's, why not now?

 

Hey Jesse, you know I was thinking. Your idea of a on/off switch for the Procharger is a great idea. You might even want to use that yourself when you don't feel the need for the extra oompfh instead of just having it for the valet. Would save on fuel and reduce engine wear when you're happy with stock.

 

And so starts the classic SC vs TT debate... again.

 

Or you can all go to SEMA in about 3 weeks and see what else is new for the Z and how far Gredy and others have come along on FI.

 

Yeah, I'm tired of pulling the belt off during the week when I use the car just to get to and from places. BTW, it's almost complete. I've built almost everything except I'm still trying to find a nice big vacuum reservoir. Once I find a decent one from a junkyard I'll be able to finish this thing up. Unfortunately, I've been derailed temporarily due to ruined pulley because of a lost bolt.

The perfect answer though would be a clutch that engages or disengages the belt. Alas, nothing like that has been built that I know of and that I can find in a junkyard. I was thinking of something like a centrifugal clutch type design, but operated electrically.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I felt compelled to answer.

 

Umm because they want and can take the sc over a tt. K?

 

Here are some Turbo Questions i asked SGP Racing.

OCG35Coupe:
How much PSI can i run on my 350z, with the Pauter Rods, SGP Head and Main Studs, and the 8.5:1 pistons. Would i be able to use these parts and the Power Enterprise Kit, and just raise the boost? Or would you reccomend a completely different turbo setup with these engine internals?

SGP:
If you drop the compression, you could run about 2 PSI
more with just the PE kit installed. IF you use a fuel
controller like the e-manage, with larger injectors
you can run up to about 14 PSI. The only thing
limiting you is the FUEL and ENIGINE management. IF
you these two to your system, there are no limits.

OCG35Coupe:
Thanx alot, I appreciate the quick response.
Has anyone done this?
How much wheel HP should i expect running 14 PSI with proper Fuel and Engine management?

SGP:
With the proper fuel you could see 550 RWHP @ about 17
PSI



Thats it, let me know what you guys think. 550RWHP...

 

God, here we go again. Fanman, you are starting the classic "SC vs. Turbo" debate again, lol.

First of all, after the 0.5 sec jerk that you get with the SC cause it is connected to the crank, the turbo will make more power. Point blank, if you have 370 peak rwhp with a turbo and SC, the turbo is making more power cause it can reach max boost at like 3500 rpms, while the SC will only make max boost at the redline. In other words, there will be more area under your power curve with the turbo.

Bottom line, basing this solely on power, you are getting what you pay for. The turbo at the same boost level as the SC will make more power, cause it is at that max boost point much, much earlier.

 

My 350Z is my first S/Ced car. It is a much different feeling than the single turbo and twin turbo I had in my MKIV Supra. I personally think the S/C is the way to go in *this* car for a variety of reasons.

1. It is the only available form of FI. (Just so you know both ATI and greddy kits have blown engines. You can not say this is specific to ati)
2. It runs cooler than a turbo
3. It will not have boost spikes like a turbo
4. It is less expensive ( I can build my engine up for the amount I will save buying and installing the ATI kit compared to the PE kit)
5. Boost is instant compared to turbo lag (big turbos don't begin to spool until 3.8rpm-X on a nice size turbo)
6. The ATI kit will do 7-14+ psi (built engine, new pulley, injectors)
7. The ATI kit comes with a FMU, no need for other stuff

The only positive side for the trubo is:

1. Boost can be controlled via a controller inside the cabin
2. Less constant noise, which is a personal preference

To me this is a no brainer. Thats why I purchased the Procharger. But to repeat the most important thing I have heard in this thread. Either choice of FI needs to be tuned perfectly. Mine was done at MC Racing in KC and I could not be any happier.

 

Ok that is not true. ATI released a product to market that has blown engines. Greddy has blown engines in R&D. There is a difference I actually agree with you, but if you had structured your point correctly, you would have simply stated taht 90%+ blown engines result from poor tuning or installation. As hard as ATI and Greddy try to find qualified tuners, mistakes will be made, and people will fiddle with their kits. So in that sense I agree that poorly tuned FI blows engines, not Greddy or ATI specifically.


You just claimed ATI was the only FI option in the same sentence fragment that you introduced another option. In addition, the ATI kit may not have any advantage over a custom setup for some people.

Boost is not boost, as you claim. This is a bit of a vague statement. Superchargers and turbochargers create boost in greatly different ways. Superchargers create boost in a linear matter with a belt. Turbochargers use turbines and spent exhuast gases and usually give a more exponential boost pattern.

Furthermore, I think what is meant by the term flexibility, has to do with the ease of changing the boost. As I understand it, and I'll admit that I don't fully understand pulleys and rpm as you describe it, boost from a turbo or twin turbo can be changed at the flick of a switch from inside the car. Flexibility in this context is not meant to imply that the ATI kit is stuck at 7psi or 9 psi forever, just that TT has that "change on the fly" capability.

You're exxagerating the reality of turbo lag here. You're talking about a large turbo if it doesn't begin to spool until 4k rpm. With a redline of 6600 rpm, do you think that turbo application is feasible on a street Z? Thats why most kit manufacturers are using 2 smaller turbos. Indeed the boost does turn on instantly with a S/C, but a small turbo can hit MAX boost just as fast as the S/C.


OCG35Coupe - SGP is probably right with those numbers, but that's not to say you can't run 14 psi with the ATI kit and put those numbers to the ground with a more linear boost pattern.

Little_rod - my apologies for throwing some fuel on the TT/SC debate, but I just love it, and besides, there is just a bunch of crappy threads filling the forum these days anyway. Peace.

Dan

 

jesse..

.. there have been at least 2 factory vehicles that I am aware of that use a mag-clutch to disengage the SC drive.
a) MR2
b) Mercedes Compressor

These were both Roots and twin screw SCs respectively.
but the clutches are not much different than that on any AC compressor. It is probalby quite possible to rig a mag-clutch to
an ATI centrifigal.

However Issues that must be taken into account are
intricate fitting, limited space and operation must be controlled as to not engage above ~3000RPM or dis-engage between shifts. The shock loading could easily break things and/or burn up the clutch.

But ,it wouldl be sweet if ATI / Vortech etc offered this type of setup as and option....

 

I think that TT is better than a SC because de SC needs about 10% to 15% of HP to work because it needs the energy of pulleys and it traducet to low HP and more Gallons per mille and because the SC gives more HP than stock above 1000rpm it cause several damage to the cluth and the gear box and the TT didn`d need HP to work because it only need the gas flow of the exhaust and it works about 3000rpm it doesn`t cause damage and I like the sound of the turbos when tha car shifts the gear!
I love it!

 

TT for me because I love it. Simple, buy what you love, you can get power out of both. more power = lots of fun

 

yeah, 350zdanny, it is an interesting debate. The problem is people get involved in defending what they bought, instead of being objective. There are advantages for both. To me, the main difference in operation is the 0.5 sec jerk you get with an SC. After that, the turbo will put out more power cause it will reach max boost, whereas the SC is not at max boost til the redline.

But that is nothing "bad" about the SC, it is just the truth about the difference between the two powerwise. For the money, I believe the SC is the better deal for most people, especially those that don't drag race and just want more power for daily driving. Now, I would love to see some mpg figures for both kinds of systems on similar cars on the interstate, cause with the parasitic aspects of the SC, I would have the tendency to believe the turbo would be better. But then again, that depends on your fuel management system, and if you upgraded the fuel injectors.

I am still looking for Vortech to come out with an SC kit. As for TT kits, there will be plenty out there to choose from.