Any need for bigger IC with meth?
11-01-2009, 08:49 PM
#1
Any need for bigger IC with meth?
I am currently running a Vortech kit with SI Trim blower and a 2.87 pulley; at the same time I upgraded my blower I also got water-meth injection and am currently running the standard 50/50 ratio...
I have a 928 Motorsports modified blower coming back shortly with the 928 impeller and upgraded bearings, so hopefully it will outperform my SI Trim (why not T-trim, you ask? because I used my S trim blower casing for the 928 upgrade and it has a CARB number....handy in CARB-**** Cali...) to my 500whp DJ levels I am hoping for, not quite Pharmd's level, but 500 is a nice number...
Anyway, I've noticed that since I've upgraded to the SI trim my car has been running a little hotter, about 230 oil temp as opposed to 210 with the stock S trim blower...dunno if the temperature rise means anything, but my point is, is there any point to upgrading my intercooler if I already have meth injection? I am currently still using the stock Vortech IC...
I have a 928 Motorsports modified blower coming back shortly with the 928 impeller and upgraded bearings, so hopefully it will outperform my SI Trim (why not T-trim, you ask? because I used my S trim blower casing for the 928 upgrade and it has a CARB number....handy in CARB-**** Cali...) to my 500whp DJ levels I am hoping for, not quite Pharmd's level, but 500 is a nice number...
Anyway, I've noticed that since I've upgraded to the SI trim my car has been running a little hotter, about 230 oil temp as opposed to 210 with the stock S trim blower...dunno if the temperature rise means anything, but my point is, is there any point to upgrading my intercooler if I already have meth injection? I am currently still using the stock Vortech IC...
Last edited by 350z006; 11-01-2009 at 09:35 PM.
11-01-2009, 08:56 PM
#2
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I am currently running a Vortech kit with SI Trim blower and a 2.87 pulley; at the same time I upgraded my blower I also got water-meth injection and am currently running the standard 50/50 ratio...
I have a 928 Motorsports modified blower coming back shortly with the 928 impeller and upgraded bearings, so hopefully it will outperform my SI Trim (why not T-trim, you ask? because I used my S trim blower casing for the 928 upgrade and it has a CARB number....handy in CARB-**** Cali...) to my 500whp levels I am hoping for, not quite Pharmd's level, but 500 is a nice number...
Anyway, I've noticed that since I've upgraded to the SI trim my car has been running a little hotter, about 230 oil temp as opposed to 210 with the stock S trim blower...dunno if the temperature rise means anything, but my point is, is there any point to upgrading my intercooler if I already have meth injection? I am currently still using the stock Vortech IC...
I have a 928 Motorsports modified blower coming back shortly with the 928 impeller and upgraded bearings, so hopefully it will outperform my SI Trim (why not T-trim, you ask? because I used my S trim blower casing for the 928 upgrade and it has a CARB number....handy in CARB-**** Cali...) to my 500whp levels I am hoping for, not quite Pharmd's level, but 500 is a nice number...
Anyway, I've noticed that since I've upgraded to the SI trim my car has been running a little hotter, about 230 oil temp as opposed to 210 with the stock S trim blower...dunno if the temperature rise means anything, but my point is, is there any point to upgrading my intercooler if I already have meth injection? I am currently still using the stock Vortech IC...
11-01-2009, 09:17 PM
#3
I'll get that dyno out when its done...however, I will not run the 928 blower with my stock block...I have plans to get a built engine, as my tuner is already very worried about my current setup with an SI blower; it just seems such a shame to do a rebuild when when my stock block is running so well currently, but the moment even a hint of a problem starts, build time...could be as soon as after the next track meet...
Not sure about this but I would love to see your boost curve and a dyno. I have considered the 928 Motorsports Impellar myself but have haven't pulled the trigger as I feel I am pushing my stock block to it's limit. I do know they make an upgraded inter cooler for the Vortech so I'm sure it wouldn't hurt.
Last edited by 350z006; 11-01-2009 at 09:20 PM.
11-02-2009, 05:42 AM
#4
meth injection cools much more effectively than a larger IC. I have both 4" core IC and a 10gph meth nozzle, but the meth contributes a majority of the cooling. I'm at 460hp on a dynodynamics.
An oil cooler would prolly be a better option and much less hassle to install.
Do you have 800cc injectors? You will need them.
An oil cooler would prolly be a better option and much less hassle to install.
Do you have 800cc injectors? You will need them.
11-02-2009, 06:13 AM
#5
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don't know how it works for centrifigul blowers cause you are getting a fixed amount of boost based on rpm....
But for turbos when it comes to IC, bigger is better......basically as big as you can fit.
tom
But for turbos when it comes to IC, bigger is better......basically as big as you can fit.
tom
11-02-2009, 06:21 AM
#6
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bigger is not always better they make different sizes for different amounts of power if you put a huge intercooler on your system and leave everything the same u will loses power. if u want a bigger inter cooler go a lil bigger dont go huge
11-02-2009, 06:52 AM
#7
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I don't know if I fully agree with that.....lemme put a caveat on my previous statement
If you are not already at the limit of your turbos, then bigger is better. If you can't flow anymore out of the turbo(s) themselves then yes there is no point.
Most people go to a smaller core to keep pressure drop and spool quick....but these days turbos spool so fast, and you can get the head/cam flow to rev so high that there is no reason to run higher intake temps cause you have a teeny core.
I know I have the biggest core that will fit with the stock crush gaurd unmodified and the core is good for 900hp (as per precision's site)
tom
If you are not already at the limit of your turbos, then bigger is better. If you can't flow anymore out of the turbo(s) themselves then yes there is no point.
Most people go to a smaller core to keep pressure drop and spool quick....but these days turbos spool so fast, and you can get the head/cam flow to rev so high that there is no reason to run higher intake temps cause you have a teeny core.
I know I have the biggest core that will fit with the stock crush gaurd unmodified and the core is good for 900hp (as per precision's site)
tom
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11-02-2009, 08:18 AM
#8
I already have an oil cooler; granted it's a small one...
I will also upgrade my thermostat and probably my radiator when I do the engine build since those parts have to be removed anyway...
And yes, I know my 650 will not be enough, so I am counting on buying bigger injectors as well as adding a fuel return system. Hopefully that will get me to 500whp...If that dosen't work, probably get a smaller cog pulley as well, that way I don't get a smaller jackshaft pulley and introduce even more slippage...
460whp is pretty close to 500whp DJ, impressive numbers on a stock block engine SI trim, right about where I want to be; I think I'll be done at that point, unless I move out of California...
I will also upgrade my thermostat and probably my radiator when I do the engine build since those parts have to be removed anyway...
And yes, I know my 650 will not be enough, so I am counting on buying bigger injectors as well as adding a fuel return system. Hopefully that will get me to 500whp...If that dosen't work, probably get a smaller cog pulley as well, that way I don't get a smaller jackshaft pulley and introduce even more slippage...
460whp is pretty close to 500whp DJ, impressive numbers on a stock block engine SI trim, right about where I want to be; I think I'll be done at that point, unless I move out of California...
meth injection cools much more effectively than a larger IC. I have both 4" core IC and a 10gph meth nozzle, but the meth contributes a majority of the cooling. I'm at 460hp on a dynodynamics.
An oil cooler would prolly be a better option and much less hassle to install.
Do you have 800cc injectors? You will need them.
An oil cooler would prolly be a better option and much less hassle to install.
Do you have 800cc injectors? You will need them.
11-02-2009, 08:35 AM
#9
The nice thing about the IC is that you don't have to run meth constantly for the cooling effect. If you had a huge W/M reservoir, I think you could easily run a big turbo without an IC at all. The benefit there is no 1-3 psi pressure drop from the IC. That is an instant efficiency bonus. This isn't practical for most though.
So, I also agree with Tom's statement with one addition: the largest core that you can fit that minimizes pressure drop is generally going to be the best selection. If you look at the SP core, they chose to maximize core depth. This helps to minimize pressure loss by reducing internal air flow restriction. So you can pick equivalent cores (whp rating), but one may be much less efficient in terms of air flow restriction, and unfortunately, this spec isn't generally advertised. Bar and plate vs tube and fin is another consideration with tradeoffs with each. Generally, an IC core can be maximized for internal airflow or external airflow. Finding the right balance isn't rocket science, but I would personally go to a fabricator that has some experience and see what they recommend.
So, I also agree with Tom's statement with one addition: the largest core that you can fit that minimizes pressure drop is generally going to be the best selection. If you look at the SP core, they chose to maximize core depth. This helps to minimize pressure loss by reducing internal air flow restriction. So you can pick equivalent cores (whp rating), but one may be much less efficient in terms of air flow restriction, and unfortunately, this spec isn't generally advertised. Bar and plate vs tube and fin is another consideration with tradeoffs with each. Generally, an IC core can be maximized for internal airflow or external airflow. Finding the right balance isn't rocket science, but I would personally go to a fabricator that has some experience and see what they recommend.
Last edited by rcdash; 11-02-2009 at 08:39 AM.
11-02-2009, 11:24 AM
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The nice thing about the IC is that you don't have to run meth constantly for the cooling effect. If you had a huge W/M reservoir, I think you could easily run a big turbo without an IC at all. The benefit there is no 1-3 psi pressure drop from the IC. That is an instant efficiency bonus. This isn't practical for most though.
So, I also agree with Tom's statement with one addition: the largest core that you can fit that minimizes pressure drop is generally going to be the best selection. If you look at the SP core, they chose to maximize core depth. This helps to minimize pressure loss by reducing internal air flow restriction. So you can pick equivalent cores (whp rating), but one may be much less efficient in terms of air flow restriction, and unfortunately, this spec isn't generally advertised. Bar and plate vs tube and fin is another consideration with tradeoffs with each. Generally, an IC core can be maximized for internal airflow or external airflow. Finding the right balance isn't rocket science, but I would personally go to a fabricator that has some experience and see what they recommend.
So, I also agree with Tom's statement with one addition: the largest core that you can fit that minimizes pressure drop is generally going to be the best selection. If you look at the SP core, they chose to maximize core depth. This helps to minimize pressure loss by reducing internal air flow restriction. So you can pick equivalent cores (whp rating), but one may be much less efficient in terms of air flow restriction, and unfortunately, this spec isn't generally advertised. Bar and plate vs tube and fin is another consideration with tradeoffs with each. Generally, an IC core can be maximized for internal airflow or external airflow. Finding the right balance isn't rocket science, but I would personally go to a fabricator that has some experience and see what they recommend.
One point I would like to make here though is that with a proper injection system, you can tailor the delivery to the point that a relatively small tank, say 2.5 gallons, will enable you to go without an IC easaly. You will likely give up a bit of trunk space, but IMHO thats a pretty good trade against having to hack up a front end to do a huge IC.
11-02-2009, 11:40 AM
#11
^ I'd burn thru 2.5 gallons in 10 minutes (15gph at 150psi) of total use which is supplement to IC cooling. No way 2.5g would be enough for a street driver without granny'ing.
Sharif made a post on this forum monitoring AIT's between a greddy kit with meth and no IC and a greddy kit with an IC, and found tryin to keep a moderately powered car cool on the street was inpractical.
but in theory it could be done, and would be done with 100% water.
Sharif made a post on this forum monitoring AIT's between a greddy kit with meth and no IC and a greddy kit with an IC, and found tryin to keep a moderately powered car cool on the street was inpractical.
but in theory it could be done, and would be done with 100% water.
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