IslandZavage

iTrader: (8)

For those of you that have the PROEFI, Do you have the 48 or the 128 (aside from price)? What was the deciding factor for your selection?

RudeG_v2.0

iTrader: (1)

+1 Chris


There is no need to attempt to discredit one or the other. They are both great EMS options that have achieved great success on the VQ thus far. To each his own and what his tuner recommends/prefers.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

Why are we calling them standalones when they aren't? At least if it's going to be discussed (or argued as this forum seems to prefer), get the terminology right so people don't get more confused than they already are (since this thread has been essentially useless at this point).

None of these are standalones. If a standalone is what someone wants, those options are out there, at ~3 x the cost of anything being discussed here (and up)

As far as the features of each, the benefits of each, etc: if you haven't used either one directly, is there something wrong with just sitting back and reading what those who have first hand experience have to say? Seems to me that would be the way to actually learn something instead of standing there and pissing into oncoming wind. I'd rather read what users have to say about the ups and downs of each system, rather than the usual infractions.

SoundPerformance

Why can't we call these a stand alone? I have a Z at the shop now running completely on the ProEFI. Drive by wire, valve timing.... everything.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

If the factory ecu is in the car, it's not a standalone. IMHO, apsects of the control are standalone with these ecu's, but they are not true standalones. I realize some might say it's all semantics, but I am a stickler for details, so it's just how I see things.

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

i undersatnad what youa re saying but its all semantics, dont loose focus on the technical side...its standalone because what it controls it doest takes over it completly, the fact that the stock ecu is still there is because there is no reason to reinvent the wheel on simple things liek accessories control or some other drivability settings already stablished by nissan that took lot of money and research ...and that make no difference in tuning a high hp VQ. Its not like a Utec that only does partial control, and a true hack of stock ECU, like say timimng ...etc...
For semantics call it pseudo standalone if it makes you feel better, but it would be hugely incorrect to call it piggy back and knock down the haltech or profi down to the realm of the Utec.

SoundPerformance

The only reason I have the factory ECU in the car is because I never rewired the sensors to be powered up by the ProEFI. If I did that I could remove it.... not quite sure though how the Body ECU would react to that. I doubt that there is any 'standalone' that could make the other computers in the car completely happy. All of the computers in a new vehicle talk to each other via CAN. In that regard you may say that they all work together and none individually is a standalone!

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

That is what precisely does not make any of these a standalone. These are either parrellel systems or piggyback systems, depending on how one connects them and utilizes them (MAF vs MAP for example). They are not standalones though, that would be rarified air for the Bosch, Motec, Pectel level products out there. These are not what you will find on the enthusiast type cars that inhabit the forums, but those are standalones.

My pet peeve about calling it something it's not is that when you're talking about the technical merits of one vs another, I think getting things completely accurate, from the ground floor to the ceiling, is critical. Whether it matters to anyone is different.

SoundPerformance

How for example would a motec be any different?

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

depends which Motec

my understanding on the M800 for example, is it totally replaces the factory ecu

SoundPerformance

And the ProEFI can totally replace the factory ECU. But how would the Motec communicate with the BCM and other ECUs in the car ?? The ProEFI can do this via CAN bus if you know the code. No different than a Motec. The key is knowing the protocol which Nissan does not reveal to anyone!

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

you are assuming the proefi can replace a factory ecu (my guess), since you asked above if wiring the sensors direct to it would freak out the other ecu's in the car. I'd be curious to know the answer to

The motec communicates on the can bus. I have not looked into Pectel, but I am sure someone at Cosworth can answer that. I know a couple people using the Bosch systems on their race cars, I'll have to get with them and ask if they bypassed the can altogether, or implemented it.

SoundPerformance

The ProEFI can also communicate on the can bus. In fact there is nothing that the Motec M800 can do that the ProEFI cannot. In fact the ProEFI can do more. I know that the ProEFI can replace the factory ECU in the car. I am just not sure if the Body computer would get pissed and shut off things like the dash or power windows etc. I know that the engine would run fine. You would have the same issues with a Motec, Bosche or Pectel.

1ZweetZ

You are incorrect. No Motec communicates with the Nissan Can bus. The abs module, bcm, etc.. would all have issues if the stock ecu wasn't there, no matter what standalone you use. All of these computers are standalone ecu's. It's not a matter of symantics, or opinions, it is a fact. They run in the Z's as piggy backs, but that doesn't change the catagory in which the ecu falls. They can run dozens of cars "standalone". You can tun the Z without the stock computer in the car at all when you run the ETC and VVT with the ProEFI, I have done it. The tach doesn't work, but that's about all you miss, and obviously with a bit of work that could be overcome.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I gotcha - my understanding was that they were now able to communicate

I have not run my car without a factory ecu yet, but I tried running it without the factory cluster. Things start to not work (like the alternator!). All workable with some wiring. I would think you would lose alot of stuff in the car if the ecu wasn't there though, but I guess those are inconsequential at the point where one would be considering such implementation.

When you run it in standalone mode, how do you take into account factory sensors? Or is it assumed at that point you're running everything aftermarket/custom and thus are able to set the sensor parameters in the software?

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

The true definition of a "piggyback" should be one that takes a stock ECU signal, modifies it, and sends it along. In this scenario the aftermarket EMS is dependent on the stock ECU for the source data. Garbage in, garbage out though; hence the poor rep that "true piggybacks" have. The aftermarket EMS systems that offer completely independent (de novo) throttle, fuel, timing, and cam control are best termed "standalone" because engine operation is fully in control by the new unit. For legal reasons, only the ViPEC has dared moved forward with dbw throttle control though the others are capable.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

Motec has it too ^, via a separate add on module. I looked heavily into it when doing the ITB project, as I was going to have it controlled via the drive by wire, but ended up not going ahead

SoundPerformance

I have the DBW working on a Z right now!

RudeG_v2.0

iTrader: (1)

I have the 48 PIN unit. However, for me the factor unfortunately was price. I would love to have the additional features of the 128 PIN unit for track use and hope to upgrade to it eventually. But I experienced some financial hardships after I got scammed by SGP on my trans, so the budget for my project has been tight since.

To answer your question though, the 48 PIN has plenty of capability and features for street VQ's that will see occasional track use. IMO, only hardcore track guys will need the additional boost and traction control features of the 128 PIN unit. Hopefully, Larry and some others can chime in on this.

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

Having DBW I think would be helpful to have in the EMS for idle stability (without having to do copy through for timing) and for not having to employ work arounds for the VDC cutting in with traction control (tied into the brake lamp signal, yaw sensor, etc) when on the track.

On the other hand, I like having the stock VDC and the TCS active while daily driving, so I don't know how much DBW really is helpful for a street car where you might want to have the safety features on most of the time. It is nice to be able to turn VDC/TCS completely off, but that requires intercepting the brake signal going to the ECU and cutting power to the yaw sensor (not a huge deal now that I've done it and it's accessible via a single switch but it was a PITA digging out the wires).