jesseenglish

Therein lies the problem. The install itself isn't that hard. There's even a DIY how-to on zchickz.com It's the little things that create problems. The devil is truly in the details. Anyone can slap on an SC, but it's making sure all of the little things are done right that will kill you.

For example, making sure the fuel lines aren't too close to the exhaust manifold. If your fuel tank is low and your fuel lines run too close you can heat up the fuel too much and then cause vapor lock and detonation. That's just one small thing that can go wrong and it's not going to change whether its a TT or SC.

350Zzzz

It is about $5000 to $6000 for a new engine.

Having postive experience with the pro charger does not depend on luck; as it only becomes an issue of luck when there is only 50/50 chance between clean power and destruction.

The procharger is capable of at the least 30lbs of boost, but it is only pushing 7lbs.; It is almost impossible to sustain a constant 7 lbs of boost for long on our streets, unless one is on the dyno or track; or if one keeps the crank at the red line for long periods. If you did that, than whether you go Turbo, Charger, NO or whatever, you better build up on your bottom end.

G

damen

would it then make a difference if you went with a 6lbs. pulley rather than 7lbs.?

ravaz

iTrader: (1)

I thought I would be safe running 16psi on my stock bottom end, I guess that would be bad huh

350Zzzz

It would depend on your objectives, what is it that you're trying to achieve. Personally, a 7lb boost is not really much, considering that turbos have the capacity for higher boost. Just don't drive like a lunatic, constantly hitting the rev limiter. And, when any tuning is done, stay slightly to a richer A/F mix.

If you're referring to longevity, even at 6 lbs, you could still damage the engine for numerous reasons, over-revving, if a weak link exist, lean A/F fuel mixture, low octane gas, etc.

You have to understand a few functions; compressed air causes friction and subsequently produces heat; which could cause spontaneous combustion, a trade-off with forced air induction. Tuning rich, allows more fuel into the chamber/cylinder and also acts as a coolant, bringing the temperatures within the chamber to safer levels. Some of the safety devises built into the pro-charger is the intercooler, as it cycles cooled aired into the chambers.

Operating at lover pressures of boost could also harm the engine if the safety measures were not kept within some of the specified variables.

Ideally, you want the combustion to occur when the spark is ignited not before or after.

G

shil01

Any chance getting this blower to a quieter db level? That whine is just too much for me. Insulation of some sort? Dynamat? Hood insulation? Surrounding the entire supercharger in a removable foam packing maybe?
I'd really really consider if it wasnt for the noise.

zland

It is not my duty to research the cause of problems for blown up motors related to a product. If Ford and Firestone are having problems with their products then it is reasonable to think they should figure out why they are having the problems.

You state "There are hundreds of people running this kit. The failures are isolated and a small number, so that would lead one to believe that there is something specific that caused this problem." the fact is, we know of 3 blown motors on this forum out of maybe 20 people that have ATI's. That is more like a 15% blow up rate. Even if it was a 3% blow up rate, I feel it is unacceptable, I guess you dont.

I find it interesting you own an ATI SC and yet it appears to concern me more that 3 motors have blown up than it does you that is living with the risk. Have you noticed that no 350Z owners have posted (to my knowledge) a blown up motor unless they have FI at this point? So, it appears that the FI or tuning of it is causing a problem.

I am confident that when other FI units come out, they will have problems too. That does not excuse the responsibility of a company to design a product for its intented purpose. I also understand that people that tend to buy performance products use them much harder than a normal user.

You asked specifically what I expect ATI to do personally, here is your answer.

1. Try providing a warranty on the motor within certain restrictions such as must be installed and tuned at a certified tuner and cannot have the ECU modified ie rev limiter. If an extra charge is needed within reason, then ok but it shows and proves confidence in their product and how it affects the product it is modifying.

2. ATI should be involved in determining why the motor blew up. As you said, it appears to be with tuning but you dont know and now ones else does either, that is why ATI should be involved, to provide possible future and current ATI SC owners the reasons their product is reliable and worth a customers investment. I have never seen one bit of information mentioning them even looking into a motor that blew up. I know as a fact that when Nissan has motors blow up, their engineers look at the causes (Yes, I know because my brother was a master Tech for over 25 years for Nissan and works with engineers from Nissan on determining product failure). If ATI is not at fault, then of course they are not responsible but they dont even look into it.

You have the right to buy any product you want. I have the right to not buy any product based on what I feel is important. I believe my350z.com is a forum to learn and discuss these issues.

If someone had a great experience with a product and service, I want to know about it and likewise if they didn't. I am thankful you are providing us with a balanced report showing your ATI is working great. We need all information, good and bad about our cars and aftermarket products.

I am very interested in purchasing mods that will increase hp and the ATI SC is one I am still considering. With all products, their is a resonable amount off time to perfect the product. This happens from a company looking into what is not working and seeking to fix those problems.

Lets go the opposite way of thinking ok. How many motors do you think need to blow up before ATI should look into the problem, 25%, 50%, 99%? Do you think they should never look into the problem no matter how high the failure rate? You know what I feel is acceptable, now you tell us what rate is acceptable for you.

keepupp

I have the ATI supercharger and the kit is great. To be honest with you guys, the kit is impeccable. The people who are putting these things on dont understand how important it is to tune the supplied EFMU. The one problem with the kit was the original owners manual. It stated that the EFMU was "pre-set" ....BUT, it did say to tune the car on the dyno using a wideband O2 sensor. What I feel people were doing is thinking the "pre-set" sliders on the EFMU were ok for awhile unti;l they had a chance to get to a dyno and wideband....BAD IDEA!! The settings on the EFMU from the factory were set SOOOOO LEAN that it was foolish on the part of the installer if they thought it was good to be driven. We have motors that run on very high compression, and running a lean mixture can and will eventually blow holes in the pistons. I think the motor can handle the power, but not the combination of power/high compression/lean mixture. When did we see blown motors????? AS SOON AS THE KIT CAME OUT. Now that people know what to look for when they buy the kit, you will see less problems. The ATI kit is in my opinion, AMAZING. A great price, reliable parts (contrary to some peoples belief) and a COMPLETE kit. If its not installed right, anything can go bad. I had to chime in on this subject because alot of people are getting the wrong idea. Until somebody can show me where the KIT went wrong and not the installer then I will change my opinion. If you need more than my opinion on the subject then take a look at Ravaz. He insists that the kit is good EVEN AFTER HE HAD A HOLE BLOWN THROUGH A PISTON. If he believes in the kit, then so do I. Correct me if I am wrong, but hasnt he decided to keep the Procharger with his newly built motor? I THINK YES. Why? Because he realized that there was a problem, but the problem was not the result of the kit.....it was tuning. People keep saying maybe its the install of the kit...Well, the kit can be installed perfectly, but if the EFMU is not tuned correctly, you will have problems. Will somebody who is skeptical on this kit tell me which specific part of the kit is weak? Its not the parts, and its not ATI.....look closer and until then please reserve judgement.

zland

keepupp:

You said "To be honest with you guys, the kit is impeccable. " How many miles do you have on it after the install of the SC? Can you actually make a claim such as that with so few miles to back up the reliability of it? How many miles do you expect the motor to go with this install? In otherwords, if it blew up in 10,000 miles, would you feel it was worth it?

At this point, ATI is not covering the engine failures, Nissan will not cover them, and the owners are affraid to say anything on line about the tuners fearing they will not cover the install. So, what that leaves the consumer is paying about $5,000 for a SC kit, and if it fails (so far 3 out of 20 have on line have) you eat a hugh motor repair.

With those odds, why is it hard for some of you to see why some of us have concerns?

Nissan designed the 350Z with the goal of the VQ lasting 200K. I feel that if my car modded or unmodded does not last 100K, I cannot justify the cost of the car. After 5K kit with lets say $1,000 install and tuning cost, you have a Z that has some money into it.

If you know a tuner that backs their work so I do not get stuck in a situation where I got a $40,000+ car with 5,000 miles on it with a blown up motor, then I will be feeling it is a wise choice to go this route. I am not sponsored by anyone, I work hard for my money, I drive reasonable, but I I got to be practical too.

I know you guys could not possibly think it is worth installing something that ruins a perfectly new car in just a month without having some kind of reassurance from someone involved (be it the SC company or installer) that you have recourse if something goes wrong.

Even when you buy a after market tire, you get a pro-rated warranty. If this is the way it is then you guys either like to gamble much more than me or got alot of money to throw away. I want hp but not at any cost.

I think the cross-section of ATI owners on this forum are a good example of ATI owners. Like I said, their is only about 20 people that have them here (if I am wrong, then what is that number?). Of those people we are aware of, 3 have burnt pistons.

ATI, if you are reading this, please prove me wrong. I love the hp gains of your product. I want to have them but i need more assurance that I am not throwing away my money on a SC that will later ruin my car.

damen

i understand where both of you are coming from but, zland don't you think that the blown motors are coming down to tuning rather than bad product? if the tuning was correct there wouldn't be blown motors. making the product fine. just a thought.

then again if the tuning was correct and a motor blew how would we really know if it wasn't the kit? just another thought.

keepupp

But what some of the other members are asking you is , what is the problem? You don't seem to answer that question. You go on and on about three blown motors......Of the three, how many of them are keeping the Procharger? And if any of them keep it, what does that say about the product. hell, I would be pissed if my motor was blown, but if I was confidsent it wasnt due to the kit, but to bad tuning, I would use it again. I have no clue why you are throwing percentages and/or ratios on how many Prochargers are out there and how many cars have blown motors....you dont really know, so call ATI and find out how many they have sold. I will say it again, I OWN the kit, and I think it is well made and matched to the Z. Tune any FI kit wrong and KABLOOEY!!! What do you get with a new supercharger kit going on a new car......questions that need to be answered. So far, we know that the kit is ok, but if it is tuned poorly it will be unforgiving....why, high compression and lean mixture are not a good combo. Is the intercooler bad, no. Is the Head unit bad, no. Are the brackets bad, no. Is the intake bad, no. Is the EFMU bad, no. Can the tuning, if poorly done,, blow a motor, most definitely. Now which part of the kit is failing? I dont think any of the parts. I dont think the kits are being installed incorrectly either. I do think the setting on the EFMU are incorrect from the factory (which it does state that the settings are a starting point) and some may think its ok to drive with those settings. This is the only problem I can see.

zland

I THINK it is tuning but I dont know, does anyone for sure? Actually, I would not care that much if i knew that someone was covering it if it blew up. If the burden of paying for it is totally on me and not the tuner or ATI, then I have to be very careful. That is why I wish ATI or the tuners would locate the problem, fix the problem, and then others like me can move on and buy this product.

I see both sides on the issue too. For those that own it, feel theirs is tuned correctly, they feel it is great and they are not going to have any problems. Everyone thinks something is great until something goes wrong. Unfortunately, you dont get much warning when something goes wrong, you just get stuck with the problem.

Maybe I have said enough about this for this week. We have different opinions of what level risk an ATI SC produces on a VQ. How about this one, I will post a thread that makes a poll "based on what you know about the ATI SC, do you feel it is a safe enough mod to install it on your 350Z?" Lets see what the average my350Z owner feels. It should be interesting.

Mikestro

Zland, it is obvious you have concerns and also obvious that you are not ready for any FI option currently available for the 350Z. FI sometimes works out just fine, but as with any mod there is a risk. FI is an exceptionally high risk. Putting a supercharger (less than 6 months into its design life) on a car that is in its first production year, amplifies these risks.

If you don't like the percentages, log on here again in a year or two and see if things have improved. That will give the aftermarket community ample time to "ramp up" to your expectations. Don't get me wrong, my expectations are exactly the same as yours. I am not a pioneer and don't wish to blow an engine for the good of the 350Z community. If I'm coughing up $5K, I want speed and reliability and a good track record, just like you do.

damen

it would be. but most may say that they would rather wait for TT or other SC to come out.

keepupp

that would be interesting to see. I look forward to it. I understand your concern. I had my car tuned on a dyno using a wideband O2 sensor and feel it has been tuned the right way, and since I havent had problems I may have a biased point of view. The poll would be interesting, I just wish the guys with the blown up cars would say EXACTLY what happened. Holes in pistons USUALLY points to an unbalance in air/fuel (lean mixture) so I point towards tuning. All in due time will we find out if its a worthy mod. Until then, I hope everyone that buys the kit goes to a reputable place who understands the 350Z.

Mikestro

Another note, you seem to often tell people that they don't have a lot of miles on their super charger so they shouldn't comment on reliability. Well, the kit just came out. You either will get no info regarding reliability or you have to take the guys word for it who has 600 miles on his supercharger.

N4Spd

if ATI would take the initiative to look into the few cases
where motors have blown. it would show that they are an
A+++ vendor... If they just did that, I think even the folks
of the worry find would take comfort...

other than that, I think both zland and ati owners here
have valid points. happy owners like what they bought,
and potential owners want answers...

cheers,
rob

2UPZROLLIN

KEEPUPP,JESSEE...They are right!.... tuning is very very important! Wether it be carburated,fuel injected or turbo-super charged, you can hole a piston in either of these cases if the A/F ratio conditions are wrong, especially if you don"t recognize what preignition or detonation sounds like when it happens on the vehicle your operating. With forced induction, it happens more quickly and more violently because temperature rise in the combustion chamber is much faster with very lean conditions, especially at wide open throttle. If you don"t recognize it and don"t back out of it...broken ring lands, bent rods, hammered bearings, broken melted and holed pistons are the end result. IF IT IS TUNED AND FUELED (A/F RATIO) RIGHT you should not have a problem with day to day driving. But remember the VQ35DE motor was not designed to be forced inducted, so some reservations on your right foot should be considered. Because 370 rwhp compared to 232 rwhp puts extra load on the drive train components that I think Nissan has not designed into. Another thing, when tuning an INTERCOOLED turbo-supercharged vehicle, on a Dyno, make sure the INTERCOOLER stays cool as possible to get the correct A/F ratio reading because if you don't you could get a reading of 2 points leaner than you should at highway speeds. Remember when air is compressed it is heated, less dense, when all else being equal A/F ratio becomes richer, when heated air is cooled, more dense, all else being equal A/F ratio becomes leaner. Lets say a tuner has a car on the Dyno and he DOESN'T have a water sprayer and a high velocity fan on the intercooler and he tries to tune the car with compressed heated air that is not being properly cooled down by a fan on the intercooler and he wants to get a 11.0 - 11.5 A/F ratio reading at wide open throttle (This is where it needs to be on forced induction) and then he tunes it at this A/F ratio, on the Dyno. Then the owner of the car takes it out on the highway on a cool evening and now the intercooler on the car is getting cool blowing air through it at 35, 55, 65, 85, etc MPH, now the compressed air that is going into the motor is cooler, more dense, he romps on it WOT and now the A/F ratio is wrong for the conditions because the cool air that is going through the motor is more dense which at the present A/F ratio slider settings is now too lean which could cause pre-ignition and detonation if held at WOT for too long. So when tuning the car make absouletly sure the intercooler stays as cool as possible to get the right A/F ratio setting as to simulate actual driving the car down the road. Thx, hope this helps.

Sanderman

No tuner or after market FI produuct comes with a full warrantly on the motor that's been modded. Why should ATI magically be the first on earth do this? Face facts - the car is being modded in way that voids the manufacturers warranty. That will be true whether or not you use a supercharger or a turbo kit from ATI, Stillen, Greddy or anyone else you can name. And there are people out there with every kind of car imaginable with turbos or SCs from those companies with blown motors.

Simply go look at the 300TT forums and see the tales of blown motors when people cranked up the boost. It's a fact of life that if you take any car into aftermarket FI mod territory you do so at your own risk. That's why who you have do the install is important. Look at some of the people who have ATIs around here. Some have tried to save money doing it themselves. Others have had the work done by shops that have never handled a Z or an ATI. When you mod your car it's your responsibility to make a rational choice on who and how you have it done. If you can't deal with that you arent the right kind of buyer for an aftermarket mod like this. Interestingly, my ATI dealer has done 5 or 6 cars now and none of them have blown motors. I don't worry about mine blowing because I KNOW it was set up correctly by a tech who had been working on Zs for 20 years and who has personnaly installed several types of SCs on a variety of Zs of various vintages and who has installed a half dozen ATIs on 350s.

The other reason I don't worry is because it looks very likely to me from the other posts on blown motors that they were likely cases of people who had incompatible mods, erroneous installs, abused cars, or poor tuning - or a combination of the above. Combined with the fact that there are literally hundreds of cars and trucks on the road with ATI SCs on them that haven't blown. This company has been selling FI for a variety of cars for years and the basic designs for their products are very similar car to car.

Trying to hold ANY small aftermarket mod company to the standards of testing and complaint resoluton of a multibillion dollar conglomeratae like Nissan is simply unrealistic. It does not and will never happen because these companies can't afford it, and they can't control what else you might do to the car that interacts with their product - and thats true of all the FI vendors who work in the aftermarket.

Maybe after market FI simply isn't for you. If you want a factory warranty and total security you are probably better off buying a car that comes with FI from the factory. It's the ONLY way you are going to get a real and genuinely protective warranty on the motor. If you're waiting on aftermarket companies to do it before you buy I wouldn't be holding my breath if I were you.

joe

zland

FYI, I am not holding my breathe so to speak but I am waiting until I will comfortable with a product. Many of you are already comfortable thus you purchased what you did. I am thankful you are willing to take chances that I am not willing to take at this point. Thank God for the entire Z community you have done so.

I ordered my Z and took months to research wheels and tires alone. Yes, I actually made several trips over one hour each direction just to look at wheels in person prior to getting my Z. That is just the way I am personally. I research something until I feel I have done an adequate amount of background to make an informed decision.

I am listening to what all of you are saying and weighing it. When I question what you say, please dont take it personal. I find healthy debate as a good way to weigh what is valid and what is not.

At this point, I am not sure if I will go FI or NA. Actually, for me, doing the research is as much fun as actually getting the product and using it (at least on an intellectual level). I love how many mods are coming out monthly on the Z. Why should I add my mods yet when we have more SC'ers and TT's coming out soon and I enjoy the process of seeing their strengths and weaknesses. I can wait for my hp gains. Heck, I waited yyears for the Z, what is another one if that is what it takes to feel comfortable with my decision. I quietly waited years for the Z to come out after seeing rough skectches of it at the Nissan Design center! I plan on owning my Z for at least 10 years. This is not something that is just going to be traded for the next "new" car that will come out for me.

Just so you know, I am involved in getting together owners of ATI's, Stillen SC, a high output NA Z, and a up and coming TT. With luck, this will happen soon and when it does, comparisons will follow. I will let you know more when it is appropriate for me to do so.

I am not being critical of one product, I am just weighing all products. ATI was bold enough to be out first. I hope that my admiration for the strenghts of the ATI SC have been expressed here and not just my concerns which are often questioned and debated. I am impressed with the high hp gain, the intercooler in the kit, the cost comparatively, and I like the idea of the power gain and boost being linear just like the stock power curve in the VQ.

I am enjoying the process of debate and research. I appreciate those of you that have not attacked me personally for my difference of opinion compared to yours and have tried to address my concerns and tried to tell me when you felt my concerns were unrealistic in certain situations. If I am frustrating anyone you, my apoligies. In the end, every post here helps me decide which option I will ultimately choose.

We might not always agree. I expect that. If we ran a thread on which is the best exterior color for the Z (been done, I know that), there would be disagreement so it is not surprizing we have debate over this product.