Technical Notice To 350z Owners
11-21-2003 | 12:39 PM
#22
Originally posted by LeighJr
Topics II: are you in Cali for good now?
Topics II: are you in Cali for good now?
11-21-2003 | 02:01 PM
#23
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
From: NJ
i am still rather new to my350z.com and i was thinking of getting the ATI procharger. i am rather upset now at what people have said about ATI and the incident involving their procharger. i hope this isnt true on how they treat their clients.
I wanted to ask the people who have responded to this thread and have the ATI procharger what they think of the procharger and if they are having problems.
I wanted to ask the people who have responded to this thread and have the ATI procharger what they think of the procharger and if they are having problems.
11-21-2003 | 03:29 PM
#24
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: Lenexa, KS
We were asked to post more Tech advise by multiple people via E-mail, and Private Messages, and we did just that.
We feel that some facts need to be posted.
1.The kit was designed on multiple cars; one included the JIC car used in drifting. That by no means says the stock kit is designed for drifting, where multiple factors come into play. Such as lack of sufficient airflow, revlimiter usage, and other factors.
2.JIC Car Runs Race gas while drifting. Due to the lack of flow over the intercooler, and possible rev limiter usage.
3.JIC Car will be going to a bigger radiator due cooling issues with the 350z's while drifting. (This even occurs on stock 350Z Drifting not just F/I) An overheating motor, can lead to pre ignition/detonation due to increased cylinder tempatures. JIC keeps a watchfull eye on these conditions, to ensure motor durabilty.
4. JIC Car will soon be featuring a Stand Alone Engine management, so that more power and boost can be made. While being a safe and durable drift car. Due to the ability to make changes in the MAP's specific for drifting. JIC is well aware of the limits of the factory ECU.
5. Throttle usage that has rapid changes while not in "WOT" is NOT ADVISED. The computer is NOT in OPEN LOOP. No matter what % of the throttle is being used, other then 100% This is not to say you can't race a 350Z with forced induction. It's the rapid changes that effect the computers decisions as far as timing, and If you have any questions about this please refer to our first post that describes the differences between the two "Loops" This goes for the mass majority of factory Efi systems today, no matter the make or model.
If you have any further questions about how to set your car up for drifting durability please feel free to call JIC/Ziel at 562-803-6122
Regards
ATI
We feel that some facts need to be posted.
1.The kit was designed on multiple cars; one included the JIC car used in drifting. That by no means says the stock kit is designed for drifting, where multiple factors come into play. Such as lack of sufficient airflow, revlimiter usage, and other factors.
2.JIC Car Runs Race gas while drifting. Due to the lack of flow over the intercooler, and possible rev limiter usage.
3.JIC Car will be going to a bigger radiator due cooling issues with the 350z's while drifting. (This even occurs on stock 350Z Drifting not just F/I) An overheating motor, can lead to pre ignition/detonation due to increased cylinder tempatures. JIC keeps a watchfull eye on these conditions, to ensure motor durabilty.
4. JIC Car will soon be featuring a Stand Alone Engine management, so that more power and boost can be made. While being a safe and durable drift car. Due to the ability to make changes in the MAP's specific for drifting. JIC is well aware of the limits of the factory ECU.
5. Throttle usage that has rapid changes while not in "WOT" is NOT ADVISED. The computer is NOT in OPEN LOOP. No matter what % of the throttle is being used, other then 100% This is not to say you can't race a 350Z with forced induction. It's the rapid changes that effect the computers decisions as far as timing, and If you have any questions about this please refer to our first post that describes the differences between the two "Loops" This goes for the mass majority of factory Efi systems today, no matter the make or model.
If you have any further questions about how to set your car up for drifting durability please feel free to call JIC/Ziel at 562-803-6122
Regards
ATI
11-21-2003 | 04:50 PM
#27
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,962
Likes: 0
Originally posted by ATI ProCharger
5. Throttle usage that has rapid changes while not in "WOT" is NOT ADVISED.
5. Throttle usage that has rapid changes while not in "WOT" is NOT ADVISED.
11-21-2003 | 04:57 PM
#28
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: houston, texas
The SVTkid made some interesting observations a while back about how to tune for some of these issues,i.e, enriching the mixture BEFORE entering high boost/timing conditions to cool the charge and the cylinder. This has a lot of merit and maybe a better way to control the issues instead of using just timing. Post is here:
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....017#post520017
For what it's worth Dinan found similar results and made the same recommendations. Dinan also warned against using limited dyno tuning to set AF rather than checking on road results since the car may then run LEAN. This was done with an M5 but I think it may apply here- see the paper on dyno tuning.
http://dinancars.com/default.htm
Just a few random thoughts, maybe wrong, but they seem to make sense in light of ATI's note.
I personally feel ATI and certified installers should know the primary issues like this and discuss them with owners BEFOREHAND. Otherwise they might as well just sell the SC and let everyone add their own parts and do their own tuning since the end result seems no different- you're on your own.
On the cars with blown engines, it maybe possible to use Consult II to look at the engine parameters around the time the engine blew. I believe the ECU stores data for a good period of time and it may show something.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....017#post520017
For what it's worth Dinan found similar results and made the same recommendations. Dinan also warned against using limited dyno tuning to set AF rather than checking on road results since the car may then run LEAN. This was done with an M5 but I think it may apply here- see the paper on dyno tuning.
http://dinancars.com/default.htm
Just a few random thoughts, maybe wrong, but they seem to make sense in light of ATI's note.
I personally feel ATI and certified installers should know the primary issues like this and discuss them with owners BEFOREHAND. Otherwise they might as well just sell the SC and let everyone add their own parts and do their own tuning since the end result seems no different- you're on your own.
On the cars with blown engines, it maybe possible to use Consult II to look at the engine parameters around the time the engine blew. I believe the ECU stores data for a good period of time and it may show something.
Last edited by jcv; 11-21-2003 at 05:02 PM.
11-21-2003 | 04:58 PM
#29
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: planet earth
hmmm, either idle or WOT operation... and stay out of closed loop! ConsultII would have to have a code set to enable you to read freeze frame data during a kaboom incident. either that or in manual record mode
Last edited by jawbone; 11-21-2003 at 05:02 PM.
11-21-2003 | 05:04 PM
#30
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: houston, texas
ECU continously stores data even without codes set. Unfortunately, this has been used against some poeple in court and by dealers to deny warranty. The question is what parameters and the time frame- I know rpm is one, don't know about the others.
11-21-2003 | 05:13 PM
#31
Originally posted by ATI ProCharger 2.JIC Car Runs Race gas while drifting. Due to the lack of flow over the intercooler, and possible rev limiter usage.
3.JIC Car will be going to a bigger radiator due cooling issues with the 350z's while drifting. (This even occurs on stock 350Z Drifting not just F/I) An overheating motor, can lead to pre ignition/detonation due to increased cylinder tempatures. JIC keeps a watchfull eye on these conditions, to ensure motor durabilty.
4. JIC Car will soon be featuring a Stand Alone Engine management, so that more power and boost can be made. While being a safe and durable drift car. Due to the ability to make changes in the MAP's specific for drifting. JIC is well aware of the limits of the factory ECU.
I just don't see why all these posts are showing up AFTER all the posts about motors blowing up. All of this could have easily been prevented. It seems like uncompleted R&D before the release of the product. Paying customers are not supposed to be the testers.
11-21-2003 | 06:23 PM
#32
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,686
Likes: 0
From: NOR - CAL
Thank you ATI,
My car uses Technosquare not the packaged "EFMU" and runs perfectly at 11.5 through every gear at all times. The fuel injectors are bigger to accomodate this. It works well and others have this exact setup. You should work a deal with them as a package!
I wish I would get PM's and emails I feel left out!
May I ask a few questions please?
1. Thank you for describing the sound of the detonation. Shouldn't an authorized tuner of yours recognize this sound? If the car comes in and dynos w/o it and then adds your product and it occurs should a qualified tuner know this? This is why I don't dyno my car I use TS and wideband for my tuning, I don't trust others even if they are alledged experts and "authorized by you." Lots of people want my "dyno number" but I don't have one. Would they know this sound?If not I will never dyno.
2. Pulleys,
Someone was sold pulleys in July for his stock engine with stock internals and this was never mentioned about the higher boost levels (timing.) I pm'd him because he has the pulleys for sale.
So to be clear, no 9 lb pulleys on stock cars w/o timing retard?
What about with the larger injectors and TS ECU like me? What method are you guys thinking of going with for timing if any? That member is selling his 9 lb pulleys and I was going to buy them until reading this so thank you! However he claims that this timing scenario never came up when you sold him the pulleys. Maybe late info like Electronic Juggler said?
Thank you for the interaction, it can only help others; and that is what it is all about right? Helping others?
My car uses Technosquare not the packaged "EFMU" and runs perfectly at 11.5 through every gear at all times. The fuel injectors are bigger to accomodate this. It works well and others have this exact setup. You should work a deal with them as a package!
I wish I would get PM's and emails I feel left out!
May I ask a few questions please?
1. Thank you for describing the sound of the detonation. Shouldn't an authorized tuner of yours recognize this sound? If the car comes in and dynos w/o it and then adds your product and it occurs should a qualified tuner know this? This is why I don't dyno my car I use TS and wideband for my tuning, I don't trust others even if they are alledged experts and "authorized by you." Lots of people want my "dyno number" but I don't have one. Would they know this sound?If not I will never dyno.
2. Pulleys,
Someone was sold pulleys in July for his stock engine with stock internals and this was never mentioned about the higher boost levels (timing.) I pm'd him because he has the pulleys for sale.
So to be clear, no 9 lb pulleys on stock cars w/o timing retard?
What about with the larger injectors and TS ECU like me? What method are you guys thinking of going with for timing if any? That member is selling his 9 lb pulleys and I was going to buy them until reading this so thank you! However he claims that this timing scenario never came up when you sold him the pulleys. Maybe late info like Electronic Juggler said?
Thank you for the interaction, it can only help others; and that is what it is all about right? Helping others?
11-21-2003 | 07:52 PM
#34
Originally posted by jesseenglish
I no longer have any question as to why ATI hasn't posted here before. How about a rational question and answer session instead of flaming. If you want people to willingly help out, you really should treat them with respect. Just my $.02
I no longer have any question as to why ATI hasn't posted here before. How about a rational question and answer session instead of flaming. If you want people to willingly help out, you really should treat them with respect. Just my $.02
They get bashed for not posting. Then when they post helpful ideas they get bashed anyway.
I think if we work together on this stuff it will help z owners (like myself) and ATI solve any issues we might have. Certainly bashing doesn't seem to help anyone.
I think some of us need to get some compression checks done. Then start looking into the TS ECU flash with larger injectors. The radiator is a new one for me. I saw one made by arc and it was $$$$. What happened to the good old days of a little watter wetter with the Supra?
Anyway, I am also interested in hearing what the concensus is on the Crawford plenum. Some seem to think it may help others say it makes things worse with the ATI kit.
11-21-2003 | 11:43 PM
#35
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,962
Likes: 0
Originally posted on Procharger.com:
Finally, unlike nitrous oxide, which requires frequent repurchase of fuel, once a supercharger is installed there is no more expense or hassle associated with performance. In short, supercharging delivers exceptional performance with little of the hassles traditionally associated with high performance.
Finally, unlike nitrous oxide, which requires frequent repurchase of fuel, once a supercharger is installed there is no more expense or hassle associated with performance. In short, supercharging delivers exceptional performance with little of the hassles traditionally associated with high performance.
Last edited by elektrik_juggernaut; 11-22-2003 at 03:55 PM.
11-22-2003 | 07:32 PM
#37
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: socal
Procharger
Enough! This thread mekes me 
. Here's the deal kids. Stop blaming your blown motors on what Procharger didn't tell you about supercharging a factory high compression motor. This crap about blaming some body else for your problem has to stop and not just with your F***ing car! I've been puting blowers on various stuff for years, from VW's to V8's. Yea, I blew a few up. But, I learned and did not blame GMC because the 671 blower that they willingly sold me blew my Camaro hood right off. So Procharger sells a "kit". If you think that this stuff can be bolted on and "tuned" and never have a problem, your hood needs to blow off too. If you don't know what YOU are doing and your tuner makes an error or your application or gas is different than the norm that the "kit" was set up for, then don't blame anybody else for your problems. You are responsable for your problem. If you think that taking your car and a fist full of dollars to a tunner makes anything bad that happens after that the tunner's problem, then I will tell you what your parents would not, YOU ARE WRONG! If you want to put a blower on your car and can not or don't want to do the work then READ. Just because you don't do the work does not give you an excuse to be ignorant about what it is you are asking the tunner to do. It's your car and you are responsable for what happens when you modify it or have it modified.
Let the flaming begin or cowboy up and be responsable for your own shiznit.
. Here's the deal kids. Stop blaming your blown motors on what Procharger didn't tell you about supercharging a factory high compression motor. This crap about blaming some body else for your problem has to stop and not just with your F***ing car! I've been puting blowers on various stuff for years, from VW's to V8's. Yea, I blew a few up. But, I learned and did not blame GMC because the 671 blower that they willingly sold me blew my Camaro hood right off. So Procharger sells a "kit". If you think that this stuff can be bolted on and "tuned" and never have a problem, your hood needs to blow off too. If you don't know what YOU are doing and your tuner makes an error or your application or gas is different than the norm that the "kit" was set up for, then don't blame anybody else for your problems. You are responsable for your problem. If you think that taking your car and a fist full of dollars to a tunner makes anything bad that happens after that the tunner's problem, then I will tell you what your parents would not, YOU ARE WRONG! If you want to put a blower on your car and can not or don't want to do the work then READ. Just because you don't do the work does not give you an excuse to be ignorant about what it is you are asking the tunner to do. It's your car and you are responsable for what happens when you modify it or have it modified.Let the flaming begin or cowboy up and be responsable for your own shiznit.
11-23-2003 | 12:19 AM
#38
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: LA
I am from JIC and I am tuning my drift 350Z last 10 month.
Hammerhead you right! I want to say stop blaming and cry. ATI make great modify bolt on kit for 350Z.Any body modify engine even bolt on kit car owners responsibility. If you don't want to any risk DO NOT MODIFY ENGINE. If you want to more hose power study about your engine. I am form Japan. I could get much information form Japanese Nissan and Japanese Nismo before play with 350Z engine. Also I have long experience for modify with turbo. you must know what you can do it with this engine and what do have to take care of this engine otherwise you might will make your engine damage. People who play race (include drift) if engine got damage this is you responsibility. I have to tell every body and topics 2. Drifting is not friendly for engine as everybody knows 350z engine is high compression. If owner made mistake for installation (have to install professional do not install by your self if you don't have experience) and no maintenance you will have big problem. I am talking about any modify and any car. Topics 2 have to tell you why my 350Z using rev limit. Because car doesn’t have enough hose power. ATI kit will make extra 100hp~140hp. but you have to remember your are using stock engine. Not race engine. Using rev limit is very risky. We are under stand about this risk for race and drift. If you can not under stand DO NOT RACE and DO NOT DRIFT. You have to remember drift will spend lot of money. For enjoy with ATI supercharger kit I can give some advice to every body. Trust me I play with 350Z and ATI almost 1 year and over 6000mile for just drift race and always full throttle.
1 install with professional race shop who has chassis dyno and who has experience (race shop is better.)
2 I am using HORIBA UEGO sensor for A/F. Bocsh wide band sener performance is too slow. If is better if tuner has this machine. Check A/F 5 or 6 gear high speed rpm.
3 Change big race radiator for cooling must keep engine water temp always less than 105C. Stock meter is not accurate. I have prototype koyo aluminum radiator. And install water temp electronic meter. Do not use auto meter. Not accrete.
4 ADD big oil cooler. This is biggest problem. If you do not take care of oil temp you engine will blow. Topics 2 your engine blow form not only A/F. you have remember if engine is over heat you will have detonation and blow... need electronic oil temp meter for under stand temperature important...
5 ATI kit is for street drive. For any kind of race change inter cooler and remove difference location. Right now we are making new intercooler system.
6 Must check boost presser. Max boot is 7psi when rpm is 6500rpm.need install boost meter but do not use chip manual type use electronic type more accrete.
7 DO not change rev limit. 350Z VQ engine main bearing is not strong. Max rpm you can use 6600rpm. Next year Nissan will start built VQ type engine. I spoke with JP Nissan engineer about engine before.
8 check fuel pressure on the chassis dyno. Check high rpm, high boost.
Hope everybody will enjoy ATI kit. My 350Z next year we will make 600Hp update engine and will play Pro Drift race. We will use DTA fuel management system.
Jon
JIC magic
www.jic-magic.com
Hammerhead you right! I want to say stop blaming and cry. ATI make great modify bolt on kit for 350Z.Any body modify engine even bolt on kit car owners responsibility. If you don't want to any risk DO NOT MODIFY ENGINE. If you want to more hose power study about your engine. I am form Japan. I could get much information form Japanese Nissan and Japanese Nismo before play with 350Z engine. Also I have long experience for modify with turbo. you must know what you can do it with this engine and what do have to take care of this engine otherwise you might will make your engine damage. People who play race (include drift) if engine got damage this is you responsibility. I have to tell every body and topics 2. Drifting is not friendly for engine as everybody knows 350z engine is high compression. If owner made mistake for installation (have to install professional do not install by your self if you don't have experience) and no maintenance you will have big problem. I am talking about any modify and any car. Topics 2 have to tell you why my 350Z using rev limit. Because car doesn’t have enough hose power. ATI kit will make extra 100hp~140hp. but you have to remember your are using stock engine. Not race engine. Using rev limit is very risky. We are under stand about this risk for race and drift. If you can not under stand DO NOT RACE and DO NOT DRIFT. You have to remember drift will spend lot of money. For enjoy with ATI supercharger kit I can give some advice to every body. Trust me I play with 350Z and ATI almost 1 year and over 6000mile for just drift race and always full throttle.
1 install with professional race shop who has chassis dyno and who has experience (race shop is better.)
2 I am using HORIBA UEGO sensor for A/F. Bocsh wide band sener performance is too slow. If is better if tuner has this machine. Check A/F 5 or 6 gear high speed rpm.
3 Change big race radiator for cooling must keep engine water temp always less than 105C. Stock meter is not accurate. I have prototype koyo aluminum radiator. And install water temp electronic meter. Do not use auto meter. Not accrete.
4 ADD big oil cooler. This is biggest problem. If you do not take care of oil temp you engine will blow. Topics 2 your engine blow form not only A/F. you have remember if engine is over heat you will have detonation and blow... need electronic oil temp meter for under stand temperature important...
5 ATI kit is for street drive. For any kind of race change inter cooler and remove difference location. Right now we are making new intercooler system.
6 Must check boost presser. Max boot is 7psi when rpm is 6500rpm.need install boost meter but do not use chip manual type use electronic type more accrete.
7 DO not change rev limit. 350Z VQ engine main bearing is not strong. Max rpm you can use 6600rpm. Next year Nissan will start built VQ type engine. I spoke with JP Nissan engineer about engine before.
8 check fuel pressure on the chassis dyno. Check high rpm, high boost.
Hope everybody will enjoy ATI kit. My 350Z next year we will make 600Hp update engine and will play Pro Drift race. We will use DTA fuel management system.
Jon
JIC magic
www.jic-magic.com
JIC Magic 350Z