Technical Notice To 350z Owners
11-21-2003, 09:09 AM
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Technical Notice To 350z Owners
TECHNICAL NOTICE TO 350Z OWNERS
As a result of our engineering research during development of our 350Z
system, we decided to limit the max boost level on our system to 7 psi.
The constraint to reliably running higher boost levels is ignition timing.
You cannot run more than 8 psi on a stock 350Z with good quality 91 octane
without risking detonation. We were also very satisfied with the power gain
at 7 psi.
Because additional fuel is available with the EFMU beyond what is required
at 7 psi, we have had inquiries from customers who wanted to purchase a
pulley change and raise the boost level. We have been proactive on these
calls, and have advised customers that they should not change pulleys unless
They have a plan to retard the timing at boost levels above 7 psi, due to
Increased cylinder pressure. Because we sell the pulleys, we have been able
to have these conversations on the front end.
Unfortunately, it has become clear that some customers are now raising their
Rev limiters without "de-pulleying" the supercharger to ensure they do not
run more than 7 psi at their new/elevated redline. This is the same as a
pulley change, and is very dangerous because at the stock engine redline,
the C-2 ProCharger is at a point in its map when boost (and thus, cylinder
pressure) increases rapidly. Just a small increase in engine redline can
result in a dangerous increase in boost level and cylinder pressure. Keep
in mind there is some safety margin there at 7 psi, but as your boost level
is increased, or your fuel quality decreased, etc, the safety margin is
reduced.
When we first came to market, the ability to raise the rev limiter was not
readily available, and this was not a concern. We also thought that our
conversations regarding the dangers of changing pulleys to raise boost level
would also make it clear that increasing the redline was also dangerous with
the factory pulleys. We are aware of the timing maps with the stock red
line. If the rev limiter is being raised the timing map also needs to be
addressed, please ask your tuner that is doing the ECM tuning if they have
full control over the timing in the ECM. Alternatively, you can retard
your timing if you choose to run more than 7 psi, or plan for further
modifications that can increase the motors HP level. You obviously can also
run higher octane fuel, etc. But the main point is, for stock motors
running 91 octane fuel, you should not run more than 7 psi of intercooled
(good air flow) boost - either by changing pulleys, or raising the rev
limiter. Additionally, just as pulleys are available to reduce the boost
level with an increased rev limiter, they are also available for those who
want to run less than 7 psi with the factory rev limiter ? if you do not
have good quality fuel in your area, etc.
If you are experiencing detonation please be advised that in the
first steps to installing this supercharger, the factory plugs need to be
changed and removed. The factory plug is a "hot burning" plug that can add
to the detonation at high rpm, and boosted conditions. This is such an
important factor we placed it on the first page of the install manual, as to
what plugs are recommended.
A/F Ratios: On a typical supercharged application the A/F
ratio around 12.6:1 is near optimal. (Measured using a Wide Band A/F meter.)
These cars during WOT are making very good power at A/F levels of 12.0 and
lower. If your car is still experiencing detonation, a slightly lower A/F
might be needed for your specific car. There is no adverse affects to
running this A/F ratio on this car with a supercharger. If you are unable
to get enough Fuel Pressure, or a low A/F ratio, please do not hesitate to
call us. There could be a chance that your EFMU may be faulty or other
issue. (pinched signal line to EFMU, leak in the signal line, loose ground,
slightly clogged fuel filter, etc)
Sounds of Detonation: Obviously tuning is most precise using a
wide-band, ideally in conjunction with a knock sensor. However, audible can
be a helpful warning tool during operation. We would like to educate people
on what the sound of detonation is. Since you can have your car tuned to
absolute perfection, many may never know the sound of detonation in case
something has changed in the combo. If people are aware of the sound of
detonation, they would know to not push the car if the sound is heard. One
of the best ways to describe the sound of detonation is rattling BB's in a
metal can. If you hear this sound after having the car tuned, look for
factors that may have changed. These factors could include gas quality,
drastic change in outside temp (car was tuned in fall, now summer rush hour
traffic) or blown fuse to the EFMU, a cracked signal line to the EFMU, a
loose ground on the EFMU, or even something as simple as the EFMU sliders
getting bumped. The list of factors goes on and on, though all need to be
checked if detonation occurs. A motor in a 350Z will not simply "just
break," as with any motor there are very clear audible warning signs. If
these warning signs are ignored, then motor failure can occur. With any car
with F/I the owner needs to be aware of these sounds.
Fuels for proper operation: The Owners manual on the kit covers this
area very well, starting on page 56. Lager cities often use oxygenated
or reformulated fuels to reduce pollution. This is also more pronounced in areas such as CA, Chicago, NY, and other heavy populated areas to be used year round. ( this coverage area can spread in winter months, due to keep clean air, even with cars richened, cold starting.
Although these fuels have the same octane ratings as unaltered fuels, some people have experienced problems (detonation) with their use. There are times where the gas station stickers may not get changed to warn you of the fuel content change. This is why it is a must for the customers to know what the warning signs are. If you experience similar problems, it is advised to use an octane booster to avoid the detonation. This is also covered in more detail on page 47 of
the G35 manual, as well as 56 in the Z manual.
A final technical issue we would like to discuss is drifting. There are
things that can be done to make a 350Z survive drifting with a boosted
motor. Our street kit was never intended to be used in a drifting
environment. We offer the tuner kit for people wanting to compete in events
such as that, so they can delete our fuel system to save money, to apply to
changes that need to be made to the car. We will now explain why this can
due much harm.
1. Extended use of the Rev Limiter: During a drift session the
rev limiter is a much used item. Though on most cars it's a full ignition
control,(MSD, or other brand). In our owners manual in bold we have
stated
"Avoid Hitting the Rev-Limiter....resulting in a dangerous lean condition,
detonation, and possible engine damage." If you are going to compete in
such an event, a simple Ignition Control Rev limiter is a cheap cost
effective "safety net" that ensures that engine damage is avoided. This is
something we do not believe is a common occurrence with the street kit, thus
is not included. ( On a side note use of the Traction Control is also NOT
ADVISED )
2. Lack of Air flow over the intercooler: During a drift the car is
turned
at such an axis, the intercooler is no longer in an effective stream of air.
When the intercooler loses it's air supply, it's ability to cool the intake
charge is lost. This intercooler, and the oversize bar and plate core is a
major key in our street system. Since our prototype/development cars we
have increased the core size of the intercooler, to the largest possible
without bumper modifications. We did this knowing people would later have
built motors,
and upping the boost level. We wanted to make sure the intercooler was
something they could grow into (as well as the blower) This saves the
customer money in the end, for not having to buy a bigger unit down the
road. This intercooler keeps the air charge so low it allows us to run the
7psi safely. Most drift cars have low compression, and moderate
boost levels allowing them to run on pump gas when drifting. (race gas is
also used as a safety net) There are not many stock cars that were designed
to be N/A from the factory running drift events with F/I motors, with no
internal engine modifications. The motors internals and electronics are not
set up to do so.
...............................
As a result of our engineering research during development of our 350Z
system, we decided to limit the max boost level on our system to 7 psi.
The constraint to reliably running higher boost levels is ignition timing.
You cannot run more than 8 psi on a stock 350Z with good quality 91 octane
without risking detonation. We were also very satisfied with the power gain
at 7 psi.
Because additional fuel is available with the EFMU beyond what is required
at 7 psi, we have had inquiries from customers who wanted to purchase a
pulley change and raise the boost level. We have been proactive on these
calls, and have advised customers that they should not change pulleys unless
They have a plan to retard the timing at boost levels above 7 psi, due to
Increased cylinder pressure. Because we sell the pulleys, we have been able
to have these conversations on the front end.
Unfortunately, it has become clear that some customers are now raising their
Rev limiters without "de-pulleying" the supercharger to ensure they do not
run more than 7 psi at their new/elevated redline. This is the same as a
pulley change, and is very dangerous because at the stock engine redline,
the C-2 ProCharger is at a point in its map when boost (and thus, cylinder
pressure) increases rapidly. Just a small increase in engine redline can
result in a dangerous increase in boost level and cylinder pressure. Keep
in mind there is some safety margin there at 7 psi, but as your boost level
is increased, or your fuel quality decreased, etc, the safety margin is
reduced.
When we first came to market, the ability to raise the rev limiter was not
readily available, and this was not a concern. We also thought that our
conversations regarding the dangers of changing pulleys to raise boost level
would also make it clear that increasing the redline was also dangerous with
the factory pulleys. We are aware of the timing maps with the stock red
line. If the rev limiter is being raised the timing map also needs to be
addressed, please ask your tuner that is doing the ECM tuning if they have
full control over the timing in the ECM. Alternatively, you can retard
your timing if you choose to run more than 7 psi, or plan for further
modifications that can increase the motors HP level. You obviously can also
run higher octane fuel, etc. But the main point is, for stock motors
running 91 octane fuel, you should not run more than 7 psi of intercooled
(good air flow) boost - either by changing pulleys, or raising the rev
limiter. Additionally, just as pulleys are available to reduce the boost
level with an increased rev limiter, they are also available for those who
want to run less than 7 psi with the factory rev limiter ? if you do not
have good quality fuel in your area, etc.
If you are experiencing detonation please be advised that in the
first steps to installing this supercharger, the factory plugs need to be
changed and removed. The factory plug is a "hot burning" plug that can add
to the detonation at high rpm, and boosted conditions. This is such an
important factor we placed it on the first page of the install manual, as to
what plugs are recommended.
A/F Ratios: On a typical supercharged application the A/F
ratio around 12.6:1 is near optimal. (Measured using a Wide Band A/F meter.)
These cars during WOT are making very good power at A/F levels of 12.0 and
lower. If your car is still experiencing detonation, a slightly lower A/F
might be needed for your specific car. There is no adverse affects to
running this A/F ratio on this car with a supercharger. If you are unable
to get enough Fuel Pressure, or a low A/F ratio, please do not hesitate to
call us. There could be a chance that your EFMU may be faulty or other
issue. (pinched signal line to EFMU, leak in the signal line, loose ground,
slightly clogged fuel filter, etc)
Sounds of Detonation: Obviously tuning is most precise using a
wide-band, ideally in conjunction with a knock sensor. However, audible can
be a helpful warning tool during operation. We would like to educate people
on what the sound of detonation is. Since you can have your car tuned to
absolute perfection, many may never know the sound of detonation in case
something has changed in the combo. If people are aware of the sound of
detonation, they would know to not push the car if the sound is heard. One
of the best ways to describe the sound of detonation is rattling BB's in a
metal can. If you hear this sound after having the car tuned, look for
factors that may have changed. These factors could include gas quality,
drastic change in outside temp (car was tuned in fall, now summer rush hour
traffic) or blown fuse to the EFMU, a cracked signal line to the EFMU, a
loose ground on the EFMU, or even something as simple as the EFMU sliders
getting bumped. The list of factors goes on and on, though all need to be
checked if detonation occurs. A motor in a 350Z will not simply "just
break," as with any motor there are very clear audible warning signs. If
these warning signs are ignored, then motor failure can occur. With any car
with F/I the owner needs to be aware of these sounds.
Fuels for proper operation: The Owners manual on the kit covers this
area very well, starting on page 56. Lager cities often use oxygenated
or reformulated fuels to reduce pollution. This is also more pronounced in areas such as CA, Chicago, NY, and other heavy populated areas to be used year round. ( this coverage area can spread in winter months, due to keep clean air, even with cars richened, cold starting.
Although these fuels have the same octane ratings as unaltered fuels, some people have experienced problems (detonation) with their use. There are times where the gas station stickers may not get changed to warn you of the fuel content change. This is why it is a must for the customers to know what the warning signs are. If you experience similar problems, it is advised to use an octane booster to avoid the detonation. This is also covered in more detail on page 47 of
the G35 manual, as well as 56 in the Z manual.
A final technical issue we would like to discuss is drifting. There are
things that can be done to make a 350Z survive drifting with a boosted
motor. Our street kit was never intended to be used in a drifting
environment. We offer the tuner kit for people wanting to compete in events
such as that, so they can delete our fuel system to save money, to apply to
changes that need to be made to the car. We will now explain why this can
due much harm.
1. Extended use of the Rev Limiter: During a drift session the
rev limiter is a much used item. Though on most cars it's a full ignition
control,(MSD, or other brand). In our owners manual in bold we have
stated
"Avoid Hitting the Rev-Limiter....resulting in a dangerous lean condition,
detonation, and possible engine damage." If you are going to compete in
such an event, a simple Ignition Control Rev limiter is a cheap cost
effective "safety net" that ensures that engine damage is avoided. This is
something we do not believe is a common occurrence with the street kit, thus
is not included. ( On a side note use of the Traction Control is also NOT
ADVISED )
2. Lack of Air flow over the intercooler: During a drift the car is
turned
at such an axis, the intercooler is no longer in an effective stream of air.
When the intercooler loses it's air supply, it's ability to cool the intake
charge is lost. This intercooler, and the oversize bar and plate core is a
major key in our street system. Since our prototype/development cars we
have increased the core size of the intercooler, to the largest possible
without bumper modifications. We did this knowing people would later have
built motors,
and upping the boost level. We wanted to make sure the intercooler was
something they could grow into (as well as the blower) This saves the
customer money in the end, for not having to buy a bigger unit down the
road. This intercooler keeps the air charge so low it allows us to run the
7psi safely. Most drift cars have low compression, and moderate
boost levels allowing them to run on pump gas when drifting. (race gas is
also used as a safety net) There are not many stock cars that were designed
to be N/A from the factory running drift events with F/I motors, with no
internal engine modifications. The motors internals and electronics are not
set up to do so.
...............................
Last edited by ATI ProCharger; 11-21-2003 at 10:53 AM.
11-21-2003, 09:10 AM
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....................
3. Rapid use of the throttle: When driving a car and rapidly feathering the
throttle to control a slide, the factory computer is having to keep up with
multiple decisions. The computer is in a struggle to figure out where to be
in the timing and fuel maps, based on load, throttle position, as well as
many other factors. When the throttle is rapidly fluctuated, with changing
load conditions, the danger of the timing, and fuel map selection being
"behind" is quite prevalent. When a car is at WOT (wide open throttle) the
ECM is in "OPEN LOOP" operation. When the car is at part throttle, it is in
"Closed Loop Operation" When drifting in a car that has a stock ECM, rapid
alterations from WOT to Part throttle occur. The computer is jumping from
Open to Closed loop. This switch is not fast by any means, and what that
adds up to is possible errors in the computers judgment. Now to add even
more problems with this is when a computer drops out of OPEN LOOP and
into CLOSED LOOP, for a fraction of a second it hits a map that can be
called a "Quench Map". This adds just another factor to add to the mix, of
the already complicated situation. Even in Drag racing, it is not
recommended to "lift" on and off the throttle rapidly to gain traction. If
this is something you are looking to do, Custom ECM tuning for this should
be purchased.
**OPEN LOOP (Wide Open Throttle)**
Computer turns off it's ability to "learn"
Computer does not read O2 sensor outputs
Computer resorts to the base program
Very Safe for F/I
**CLOSED LOOP (part throttle)**
Computer reads all online sensors (more sensors online, more factors to
judge)
Computer is trying to optimize A/F for emissions and gas mileage.
During low-moderate load this is an acceptable.
4. Fuel location in the tank: During long periods of lateral g
forces, things such as where the fuel is located in the tank become issues to look
at. When a car has been sideways or swinging from side to side the fuel
pumps pick up, can often times get starved for fuel. (It can all be at one
side of the tank) If the factory pump starves for fuel, the life blood of
the motor has just been cut off. With any F/I car this is a very bad situation for the obvious reasons. If you look at photos of Top of the Line drifting machines, often times you will notice in the rear section of the car an aux. fuel pump, plumbed with hard-line. You will also notice a small
"can" looking device. This device is an accumulator tank, where pressurized
fuel is stored in case of intank pump starvation. Any Motorsports event
that involves lateral g forces either has custom build gas tanks, or fuel
systems to match the demands. (Off road trucks, Road racing, high end autoX
cars)
5. Motor oil supply: This is unrelated to our supercharger system on
the car, but still worth noting. Since our blower features a self contained oil
system it is unaffected by this situation. The same concept that plagues a
fuel system, during lateral g forces, also plagues the oil system for the
motor as well. For this reason there are many custom oil pans on the market
that involve a maze of "trap doors" to keep the oil in the area of the pan
around the pick up. If the oil isn't near the pick up, the motor can starve
for oil. Thus causing bearing damage, elevated temp due to friction, valve
train wear, etc.
If you are interested in competing in drifting, or other events where the
use of the rev limiter, or low air flow over the intercooler is a condition
that may occur. We greatly urge you to seek the proper equipment to ensure
the motors "safety"
If you have any questions, please contact us. We will share information,
such as above, on this forum when appropriate. But for individual
customers who have had problems due to the issues noted above, we will
continue to respect their confidentiality and communicate with them on a
one-on-one basis.
Thank you...
The technical staff at ATI
3. Rapid use of the throttle: When driving a car and rapidly feathering the
throttle to control a slide, the factory computer is having to keep up with
multiple decisions. The computer is in a struggle to figure out where to be
in the timing and fuel maps, based on load, throttle position, as well as
many other factors. When the throttle is rapidly fluctuated, with changing
load conditions, the danger of the timing, and fuel map selection being
"behind" is quite prevalent. When a car is at WOT (wide open throttle) the
ECM is in "OPEN LOOP" operation. When the car is at part throttle, it is in
"Closed Loop Operation" When drifting in a car that has a stock ECM, rapid
alterations from WOT to Part throttle occur. The computer is jumping from
Open to Closed loop. This switch is not fast by any means, and what that
adds up to is possible errors in the computers judgment. Now to add even
more problems with this is when a computer drops out of OPEN LOOP and
into CLOSED LOOP, for a fraction of a second it hits a map that can be
called a "Quench Map". This adds just another factor to add to the mix, of
the already complicated situation. Even in Drag racing, it is not
recommended to "lift" on and off the throttle rapidly to gain traction. If
this is something you are looking to do, Custom ECM tuning for this should
be purchased.
**OPEN LOOP (Wide Open Throttle)**
Computer turns off it's ability to "learn"
Computer does not read O2 sensor outputs
Computer resorts to the base program
Very Safe for F/I
**CLOSED LOOP (part throttle)**
Computer reads all online sensors (more sensors online, more factors to
judge)
Computer is trying to optimize A/F for emissions and gas mileage.
During low-moderate load this is an acceptable.
4. Fuel location in the tank: During long periods of lateral g
forces, things such as where the fuel is located in the tank become issues to look
at. When a car has been sideways or swinging from side to side the fuel
pumps pick up, can often times get starved for fuel. (It can all be at one
side of the tank) If the factory pump starves for fuel, the life blood of
the motor has just been cut off. With any F/I car this is a very bad situation for the obvious reasons. If you look at photos of Top of the Line drifting machines, often times you will notice in the rear section of the car an aux. fuel pump, plumbed with hard-line. You will also notice a small
"can" looking device. This device is an accumulator tank, where pressurized
fuel is stored in case of intank pump starvation. Any Motorsports event
that involves lateral g forces either has custom build gas tanks, or fuel
systems to match the demands. (Off road trucks, Road racing, high end autoX
cars)
5. Motor oil supply: This is unrelated to our supercharger system on
the car, but still worth noting. Since our blower features a self contained oil
system it is unaffected by this situation. The same concept that plagues a
fuel system, during lateral g forces, also plagues the oil system for the
motor as well. For this reason there are many custom oil pans on the market
that involve a maze of "trap doors" to keep the oil in the area of the pan
around the pick up. If the oil isn't near the pick up, the motor can starve
for oil. Thus causing bearing damage, elevated temp due to friction, valve
train wear, etc.
If you are interested in competing in drifting, or other events where the
use of the rev limiter, or low air flow over the intercooler is a condition
that may occur. We greatly urge you to seek the proper equipment to ensure
the motors "safety"
If you have any questions, please contact us. We will share information,
such as above, on this forum when appropriate. But for individual
customers who have had problems due to the issues noted above, we will
continue to respect their confidentiality and communicate with them on a
one-on-one basis.
Thank you...
The technical staff at ATI
Last edited by ATI ProCharger; 11-21-2003 at 10:21 AM.
11-21-2003, 10:01 AM
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Great write-up!! The information you have provided is one of the more informative and honest posts I have seen regarding ANY product.
And thanks for confirming that the ECU will NOT learn when at WOT.
Your post may draw unwaranted negative attention from the "naysayers" but rest assured there are plenty of us knowledgable enough to truly appreciate your statements and efforts. Thanks!
And thanks for confirming that the ECU will NOT learn when at WOT.
Your post may draw unwaranted negative attention from the "naysayers" but rest assured there are plenty of us knowledgable enough to truly appreciate your statements and efforts. Thanks!
11-21-2003, 10:21 AM
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Yeah.........that's all very interesting.........but most of that stuff should have been told to the consumer BEFORE they bought your product
Your explanation about detonation in cars in California due to oxygenated gas is a very good explanation........except that my car was tuned in the summer........they add oxygenates to the gasoline in the winter, not the summer
Take a good look everybody.....this is the kind of help that you can expect from ATI if you buy their Procharger........they had contacted me a few days ago, and asked about my problems, as if they planned to do something about it........apparently they were just gathering information for this nice little PR statement
Your explanation about detonation in cars in California due to oxygenated gas is a very good explanation........except that my car was tuned in the summer........they add oxygenates to the gasoline in the winter, not the summer
Take a good look everybody.....this is the kind of help that you can expect from ATI if you buy their Procharger........they had contacted me a few days ago, and asked about my problems, as if they planned to do something about it........apparently they were just gathering information for this nice little PR statement
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11-21-2003, 10:33 AM
#8
Originally posted by elektrik_juggernaut
Yeah.........that's all very interesting.........but most of that stuff should have been told to the consumer BEFORE they bought your product
Your explanation about detonation in cars in California due to oxygenated gas is a very good explanation........except that my car was tuned in the summer........they add oxygenates to the gasoline in the winter, not the summer
Take a good look everybody.....this is the kind of help that you can expect from ATI if you buy their Procharger........they had contacted me a few days ago, and asked about my problems, as if they planned to do something about it........apparently they were just gathering information for this nice little PR statement
Yeah.........that's all very interesting.........but most of that stuff should have been told to the consumer BEFORE they bought your product
Your explanation about detonation in cars in California due to oxygenated gas is a very good explanation........except that my car was tuned in the summer........they add oxygenates to the gasoline in the winter, not the summer
Take a good look everybody.....this is the kind of help that you can expect from ATI if you buy their Procharger........they had contacted me a few days ago, and asked about my problems, as if they planned to do something about it........apparently they were just gathering information for this nice little PR statement
11-21-2003, 11:11 AM
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ATI statement
Personally I am in slight disagreemetn on one ATI point.
Yes the driver should be educated on what "detonation" sounds like on the VQ platform. However; detonation can not always be dicerned "rapidly" by the naked ear. In a severe "over-timing" situation which is note that near the rev-limiter , there is alot of backround noise present. Hnec why dydno tuners have used a simple "tin ear" for years. The Z and G isn't terribly devoid of resonance at this high output end of the spectrum. Hence what starts as non-detected detonation can rapidly leads to pre-ignition, which then very rapidly leads to cylinder one or more of (piston, ring head gasket etc) failure. Don't belive it , look at the dead piston pics of MAX and RAVAZ.
So as mentioned in other threads , all you "ATI pilotsw" out their you REALLY should consider a timing control upgrade , at "any boost level". the J&S setup seems to be a solid choice at this point. If you do get into a detonation state, the controller will offer insurance that pre-ignition doesn't spank your baby.
IMO
Yes the driver should be educated on what "detonation" sounds like on the VQ platform. However; detonation can not always be dicerned "rapidly" by the naked ear. In a severe "over-timing" situation which is note that near the rev-limiter , there is alot of backround noise present. Hnec why dydno tuners have used a simple "tin ear" for years. The Z and G isn't terribly devoid of resonance at this high output end of the spectrum. Hence what starts as non-detected detonation can rapidly leads to pre-ignition, which then very rapidly leads to cylinder one or more of (piston, ring head gasket etc) failure. Don't belive it , look at the dead piston pics of MAX and RAVAZ.
So as mentioned in other threads , all you "ATI pilotsw" out their you REALLY should consider a timing control upgrade , at "any boost level". the J&S setup seems to be a solid choice at this point. If you do get into a detonation state, the controller will offer insurance that pre-ignition doesn't spank your baby.
IMO
11-21-2003, 11:20 AM
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I no longer have any question as to why ATI hasn't posted here before. How about a rational question and answer session instead of flaming. If you want people to willingly help out, you really should treat them with respect. Just my $.02
11-21-2003, 11:28 AM
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as you know.....ATI doesn't do the question and answer thing......look at their posts.......they don't reply to anybody.......they spout nice words about how everything else is to blame for their product not working properly.......sometimes they throw in a statement that says they don't point fingers.......and then they leave
Last edited by elektrik_juggernaut; 11-21-2003 at 11:35 AM.
11-21-2003, 11:33 AM
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Yes, I know they don't usually respond, but maybe they will if we have a intelligent discussion of the issues instead of flaming.
We don't know what it is and I'm sure ATI doesn't know for sure either.
I have a guess that it is a timing issue, but will never truly know unless I'm monitoring all engine vitals including A/F ratios on each cylinder, intake temps, timing settings, the KR sensor, engine coolant temps, ECU state, EGT's, TPS, and boost when an engine actually blows up.
So, somebody go blow up an engine and figure out what the problem truly is.
We don't know what it is and I'm sure ATI doesn't know for sure either.
I have a guess that it is a timing issue, but will never truly know unless I'm monitoring all engine vitals including A/F ratios on each cylinder, intake temps, timing settings, the KR sensor, engine coolant temps, ECU state, EGT's, TPS, and boost when an engine actually blows up.
So, somebody go blow up an engine and figure out what the problem truly is.
Last edited by jesseenglish; 11-21-2003 at 11:36 AM.
11-21-2003, 11:36 AM
#14
Ok, i think now is a good time to get started...
Looks like you guys did alot of homework trying to cover all your bases. There pretty much isn't any other excuse except,
6. Don't drive the car! We didn't really expect anyone to drive their car after they bought our Procharger. Anyone that drives it could somehow possibly maybe cause damage to the motor.
Ok well here are a few things i picked up from your write-up.
1. This notice is about 3 Months overdue.
2.
It was not a concern... however you "thought" that your conversations about changing pulleys was bad. So it was infact a concern, you just "assumed" everyone would figure it out???
3.
My car was tuned on a dyno with a wideband 02 sensor. Running mid to low 11's. So that sounds good.
4.
I am knowledgable enough to say that I am quite aware of what detonation is, and what it sounds like. There were no warnings in my scenerio. But even if there was, it was too short of notice to prevent it.
5.
Here is where you spend half of your writeup on drifting and how horrible it is. Good idea, cuz you can use it to defend yourself against anyone that has attended an event. But first thing's first. THIS KIT WAS DESIGNED ON A DRIFT CAR!!! The kit was designed/tested on JIC's 350Z. And I hope everyone is knowledgable enough to know that the JIC 350Z is a full on drift car. It has participated in dozens of events. And I have seen them drive it personally. He sure loves that rev-limiter too. And also the talk about saving money and buying the tuner kit. If you couldnt make a good enough bolt on kit to make power and run hard and take it, they why did you make a kit at all? So you build the kit on a drift car, and then say that anyone that drifts with this kit will damage their motor?
6.
Like I just stated, I've watched the JIC/Procharger car run on the rev limiter for periods of time. Even the president of JIC told me to use the rev limiter to set the tension on the procharger belt.
7.
Since when were cars designed to be drift cars from the factory??? Hopefully soon cuz I sure wanna buy one!
8.
And race car drivers don't ever feather the throttle? You would be quite surprised as to how often you are either in part throttle, or full throttle. There is not too much changing. All of the "feathering" is generally done only during part throttle, like 40-60% throttle. Not between 90 and 100% throttle.
9.
Here is another part where you just found a picture or 2 and jumped to conclusions. Do you have proof of all these top of the line drifting machine not running their stock tank with a drop in pump? Ohh wait, majority of them do run a stock tank. And so does your procharged Z. (JIC)
10.
Ohh yeah, I forgot that
the Z are seizing their motors and not melting pistons and blowing their rings out.
I'll give you credit for a good article. But you definately need to do more than that to impress the better half of us. I wanted to chime in with my knowledge on drifting since your whole article seemed to be based on that. And its just really funny that it is when you built the system off of a drift car and say anyone that drifts will damage the car to cover for yourself.
Looks like you guys did alot of homework trying to cover all your bases. There pretty much isn't any other excuse except,
6. Don't drive the car! We didn't really expect anyone to drive their car after they bought our Procharger. Anyone that drives it could somehow possibly maybe cause damage to the motor.
Ok well here are a few things i picked up from your write-up.
1. This notice is about 3 Months overdue.
2.
When we first came to market, the ability to raise the rev limiter was not readily available, and this was not a concern. We also thought that our conversations regarding the dangers of changing pulleys to raise boost level would also make it clear that increasing the redline was also dangerous with the factory pulleys.
3.
A/F Ratios: On a typical supercharged application the A/F ratio around 12.6:1 is near optimal. (Measured using a Wide Band A/F meter.) These cars during WOT are making very good power at A/F levels of 12.0 and lower. If your car is still experiencing detonation, a slightly lower A/F might be needed for your specific car.
4.
A motor in a 350Z will not simply "just break," as with any motor there are very clear audible warning signs. If these warning signs are ignored, then motor failure can occur. With any car with F/I the owner needs to be aware of these sounds.
5.
A final technical issue we would like to discuss is drifting. There are things that can be done to make a 350Z survive drifting with a boosted motor. Our street kit was never intended to be used in a drifting environment. We offer the tuner kit for people wanting to compete in events such as that, so they can delete our fuel system to save money, to apply to changes that need to be made to the car. We will now explain why this can due much harm.
6.
Extended use of the Rev Limiter: During a drift session the rev limiter is a much used item.
7.
There are not many stock cars that were designed
to be N/A from the factory running drift events with F/I motors, with no internal engine modifications. The motors internals and electronics are not set up to do so.
to be N/A from the factory running drift events with F/I motors, with no internal engine modifications. The motors internals and electronics are not set up to do so.
8.
Rapid use of the throttle: When driving a car and rapidly feathering the throttle to control a slide.
9.
With any F/I car this is a very bad situation for the obvious reasons. If you look at photos of Top of the Line drifting machines, often times you will notice in the rear section of the car an aux. fuel pump, plumbed with hard-line. You will also notice a small "can" looking device. This device is an accumulator tank, where pressurized fuel is stored in case of intank pump starvation.
10.
Motor oil supply.
the Z are seizing their motors and not melting pistons and blowing their rings out.
I'll give you credit for a good article. But you definately need to do more than that to impress the better half of us. I wanted to chime in with my knowledge on drifting since your whole article seemed to be based on that. And its just really funny that it is when you built the system off of a drift car and say anyone that drifts will damage the car to cover for yourself.
11-21-2003, 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by jesseenglish
So, somebody go blow up an engine and figure out what the problem truly is.
So, somebody go blow up an engine and figure out what the problem truly is.
This can all be verified pretty simply with a Consult-II......take a Consult-II, connect it to a stock 350z, and see what it reads as the timing for different rpm's
11-21-2003, 11:45 AM
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I've called multiple dealerships and they all just tell me 15 degrees BTDC is the stock setting. I say, "No ****", what about throughout the RPM range" Usually there's a silence on the phone where they're trying to thing of something intelligent to say.
Then I get, "Oh, well we have no way of reading that kind of information"
Technosquare won't give the information out because it's considered proprietary information. How could Nissan's stock timing settings be considered proprietary information of Technosquare?
Anyways, i was talking about blowing an engine with all of the sensor data being continuously logged. Facetiously though, because I'm sure that there aren't a lot of people willing to give up an engine for science.
Then I get, "Oh, well we have no way of reading that kind of information"
Technosquare won't give the information out because it's considered proprietary information. How could Nissan's stock timing settings be considered proprietary information of Technosquare?
Anyways, i was talking about blowing an engine with all of the sensor data being continuously logged. Facetiously though, because I'm sure that there aren't a lot of people willing to give up an engine for science.
11-21-2003, 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by jesseenglish
Technosquare won't give the information out because it's considered proprietary information. How could Nissan's stock timing settings be considered proprietary information of Technosquare?
Technosquare won't give the information out because it's considered proprietary information. How could Nissan's stock timing settings be considered proprietary information of Technosquare?
11-21-2003, 12:27 PM
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Hey Topics II, Nice response. , Now I wouldn't put a procharger in my car if they gave it to me. Don't they realize that people blowing motors is gonna hurt business. maybe they will go out of business and someone with a some real knowledge will pick them up and start maing a product that doesn't suck.