Technical Notice To 350z Owners
12-07-2003, 06:14 PM
#162
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From what I have seen the ATI kit looks great. But the reason I have not picked one up is because I don't trust the design of the fuel pressure regulator. I don't really care if the Z uses a returnless fuel system, Ill run and tap a return line. But I guess this is not a good way to sell it kit. I still have not got a FI kit because every one seems to have 1 thing that I don't want to deal with. The vortech is lubricated by the motors oil, I don't like the idea of taping the oil pan. I did tap the oil pan on my other car for my custom turbo setup, but I really don't want to do that to my Z.
12-07-2003, 07:43 PM
#163
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Originally posted by GaryK
No, actually I was talking about the compressor mounting brackets.
The angle of the volute can be adjusted, which solves the problem the majority of the time. This should be in the manual though....ATI, are you listening? And on the ones that need to bend the pinch weld, what's the big deal? I had to do it on mine too. If this type of thing is a problem, then the customer should probably stick to lighter modifications than converting an N/A car to F/I.
Yep, I've had quite a bit of experience with modification to cars. I understand a lot more about this than you think, and I do agree with this statement. Doc's post above sums it up. I'm sure that ATI will evaluate the feedback they receive and improve the design in the future.
I'm not taking ATI's side in any of this. I think they maybe should have done a couple things differently, but they took the risk and came to market first. I do think that a lot of people are expecting too much from a mod as extensive as this. I'm not referencing the lack of timing control, or the method of fuel management here. It just seems like the thing is getting picked apart, sequentially, as if people are just trying to keep the ATI bashing alive.
Maybe I'm just used to the fit, finish, and quality of aftermarket products in general. I don't expect anything to be done "right" unless I do it myself. Yeah, there are things I would do differently on the ATI kit. But I knew that before I even bought the thing.
350Zzzz, like you said, nothing personal. I'm just trying to understand where some of the complaints are coming from. You're the first I've seen that had a complaint about the IC, aside from the fact that it usually ends up off center....
No, actually I was talking about the compressor mounting brackets.
The angle of the volute can be adjusted, which solves the problem the majority of the time. This should be in the manual though....ATI, are you listening? And on the ones that need to bend the pinch weld, what's the big deal? I had to do it on mine too. If this type of thing is a problem, then the customer should probably stick to lighter modifications than converting an N/A car to F/I.
Yep, I've had quite a bit of experience with modification to cars. I understand a lot more about this than you think, and I do agree with this statement. Doc's post above sums it up. I'm sure that ATI will evaluate the feedback they receive and improve the design in the future.
I'm not taking ATI's side in any of this. I think they maybe should have done a couple things differently, but they took the risk and came to market first. I do think that a lot of people are expecting too much from a mod as extensive as this. I'm not referencing the lack of timing control, or the method of fuel management here. It just seems like the thing is getting picked apart, sequentially, as if people are just trying to keep the ATI bashing alive.
Maybe I'm just used to the fit, finish, and quality of aftermarket products in general. I don't expect anything to be done "right" unless I do it myself. Yeah, there are things I would do differently on the ATI kit. But I knew that before I even bought the thing.
350Zzzz, like you said, nothing personal. I'm just trying to understand where some of the complaints are coming from. You're the first I've seen that had a complaint about the IC, aside from the fact that it usually ends up off center....
“You're the first I've seen that had a complaint about the IC”
No idea where you got that from; as wishing for “ ….a better quality intercooler” does not indicate that I was in any way complaining about it. There is a difference between the “intercooler” and “intercooler piping design.”
…..I understand a lot more about this than you think…..
How do you know what I think, when I did not share my thoughts as to your experience level? Please, read my comments and keep it to what I said; and not what you thought I said.
GaryK I am not certain where you pull your assumptions from; but definitely not from any of my past statements on this message thread.
I reiterate my earlier points and question.
- Just one question; how come the STILLEN Stage 2 Intercooled Supercharger's warranty covers the engine, as well? But ATI’s does not, when the following claims were made, and I quote “ProCharger® supercharger systems are absolutely the most powerful and reliable supercharger systems available for your vehicle. Nothing else even comes close! This is possible only because the quality and design of ProCharger systems are simply second to none.”
- Spark Plug question; ProCharger recommends : Part # LFR6A-11, which is with a copper core. Is that am absolute must?
- Will ATI be offering better intercooler piping design that is contoured to better fit the 350Z body/engine, without having to cut into frames and/or cause interference with moving parts?
- Will ATI be providing a better quality intercooler upgrade path, which will allow a wider range of applications?
- Will you offer a bypass valve with a higher performance rating?
- And, definitely a better Fuel Management System is due; a larger and more efficient fuel pump, maybe even a FPR, larger injectors, etc.
Recommending upgrades is in proper order and definitely not complaining or bashing, as some you believe.
Originally posted by GaryK
I'm confused. What exactly is your problem with the ATI intercooler? I really don't think you have any major issues there, the intercooler itself is more than adequate even at boost levels higher than the kit is set up for. The piping is a tight fit, but it can be dealt with by tweaking the position/angles of the piping.
I'm confused. What exactly is your problem with the ATI intercooler? I really don't think you have any major issues there, the intercooler itself is more than adequate even at boost levels higher than the kit is set up for. The piping is a tight fit, but it can be dealt with by tweaking the position/angles of the piping.
Finally, I prefer to keep to the subject of improvements and upgrades and not continue to split hairs with you GK.
G
12-08-2003, 03:15 AM
#164
What was the point of the IC pictures you posted? I guess I took that the wrong way, as I thought you had a problem with the current design that you want ATI to fix. So apparently you have no problem with it, my bad.
With all the things that you want from ATI, it sounds like you really might be better off with a custom installation. You seem to be "wishing for better quality" from just about every component of the kit. If you do a custom installation from scratch, you can pick the IC, bypass valve, compressor mounting, fuel control solution, piping routing, etc rather than depending on ATI to supply what you personally want. I hope you get what you want from ATI, but I wouldn't hold my breath....
With all the things that you want from ATI, it sounds like you really might be better off with a custom installation. You seem to be "wishing for better quality" from just about every component of the kit. If you do a custom installation from scratch, you can pick the IC, bypass valve, compressor mounting, fuel control solution, piping routing, etc rather than depending on ATI to supply what you personally want. I hope you get what you want from ATI, but I wouldn't hold my breath....
12-08-2003, 12:25 PM
#165
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I want to retract my statements about Mike@Altered......he just called me and offered to help with my problems, which is WAYYYY more than ATI has done in this matter......he's aware of the timing issues and has expressed a desire to help his customers out
12-08-2003, 02:24 PM
#168
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He PM'd me too and asked for my number which is more than ATI has EVER done. That is all I have asked for, customer service before during and AFTER the purchase.
That is why I made the "good with the bad post. " Everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves. Mike has, ATI hasn't.
That is why I made the "good with the bad post. " Everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves. Mike has, ATI hasn't.
12-08-2003, 02:33 PM
#169
No he has not PM'd me or anything, and he won't.. He wants to make it right? Sure, send me the 3500$ that it cost me for my engine, refund me the labor and tuning costs, and I'll be happy to remove my statements. You guys have had a different experience with him, then I had. HE INSTALLED the kit on my car and tuned it on his dyno, and damaged it on his dyno. HE just SOLD you guys the kit, and that't it. So it's a little different here. And besides, I want my block back and they are avoiding that. I sent an e-mail about it, they chose to ignore it. That's not right there.... I hate bringing this stuff to the internet, but it seems to be the only way to communicate with these guys.
12-08-2003, 11:42 PM
#170
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Originally posted by ravaz
I hate bringing this stuff to the internet, but it seems to be the only way to communicate with these guys.
I hate bringing this stuff to the internet, but it seems to be the only way to communicate with these guys.
but I have to agree with "ravaz" when you try the normal channels like calling on your dime and they don't respond what is left to do 
people need to be made aware that this complete kits is not complete and there is a big risk! ATI needs to do the R&D not us
ATI needs to wake up and do something other the a "CYA" warning to get themselves off the hook
By the way ATI .... you better add a clutch to your warning since the stock one isn't going to last very long
p.s. I edit for spelling and retract for $$
Last edited by daddy Z; 12-08-2003 at 11:51 PM.
12-09-2003, 09:43 AM
#171
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I have no vested interest in any F/I application, but have to ask the question: Who the **** would buy this kit now if you cannot drive *****-out when you want to? I drive the **** out of my car for 20 minutes a session on the track and cannot imagine having to take it easy half-way through a session because my F/I application is suspect. That is ****ing ludicrous!
BTW, before the ATI application hit the market, my tech told me that ATI has been HATED and DESPISED in the Mustang community for quite some time.
BTW, before the ATI application hit the market, my tech told me that ATI has been HATED and DESPISED in the Mustang community for quite some time.
12-09-2003, 11:30 AM
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I would just like to ask you guys a few questions:
1) out of all the 350Z Procharger SC customers what would be the ratio of satisfied to nonsatisfied?
2) and even from the nonsatisfied customers would you still recommend going with the Procharger SC? ie. do you think you will get all the bugs worked out?
3) Are all the nonsatisfied 350Z Procharger SC customers using the Technosquare reprogrammed ECM?
4) A little off topic: should we all be going with a reprogrammed ECM to "Unlock the potential" of the 350Z engine? ie would any addon be bennifcial without changing the ECM programming?
1) out of all the 350Z Procharger SC customers what would be the ratio of satisfied to nonsatisfied?
2) and even from the nonsatisfied customers would you still recommend going with the Procharger SC? ie. do you think you will get all the bugs worked out?
3) Are all the nonsatisfied 350Z Procharger SC customers using the Technosquare reprogrammed ECM?
4) A little off topic: should we all be going with a reprogrammed ECM to "Unlock the potential" of the 350Z engine? ie would any addon be bennifcial without changing the ECM programming?
12-09-2003, 12:52 PM
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Here is a better question. Can ATI even get a car into the Sports Z magazine I pay for being that they have been out longer than any other FI on the market? If they can't that is really sad and to me, speaks volumes. Dr. Bonz and others say they run fine with the stock kit but we have all learned there are timing issues etc so I truly want to see a shootout that includes ATI. Mike never got back to me either so my thoughts on that are still on hold. ATI says they have sold 100 kits so surely they can find just one to run in the Sports Z shootout in stock form? I am talking as it was sold to us with the Aermotive FMU at the stock settings w/o any tuning or timing retard etc. I double dog dare them to enter one in this 1/4 mile dyno etc type shootout against the competition!
12-09-2003, 01:06 PM
#174
Max, why would you expect ATI to enter this shootout with a car that isn't even tuned? That's just asking for trouble no matter what kit you're talking about. If the others are being run as they come in the kit (components), I agree that for a good comparison the ATI should be run with the kit components. But the others are most likely tuned...if they're not then their owners are taking a huge risk. Tuning is required on any kit if you want to know for sure that its running as safe as possible...
12-09-2003, 01:12 PM
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Because they said to me that it doesn't need tuning the FMU ships ready to run in it's stock form on our Z's, that's why. Plug N Play so to speak. Install and off you go. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and let them lean it out if they will lol, I am hoping they enter this I honestly am. I want to see for myself, after all I own the kit! It ships rich, hey if they wanna lean it out with the timing off more power to them.
12-09-2003, 02:08 PM
#178
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I'll toss in a 20.00 I want a fair shoot out in the review. If I thought the kit was crap I would take it off. I would enter mine but it isn't fair. I removed the FMU and added a TS reflash to add fuel, retard timing and firm shift points.
I added 10 hole P.E. 380cc Injectors and next up in the mail already is a SARD fuel pump.
I am sure I could take the Stillen in the 1/4 and rwhp but that is not a fair test.
Either they test tuner kits or they test complete kits. I bought the complete kit and think it has well... issues to be polite.
Rather than whine about it I worked around the issues. I mean I drive my car to work in 3 different counties I can't be worrying about trying to stay under 4k rpm's when I am running late.
So let's get a "complete ATI Kit" in this thing it's a must. SOMEONE step up. If I was the product maker or even a Vendor trying to sell these things I woul PAY soemone to get their car in. If it's "all that" then lets read about it in print. I honestly hope it puts the smack down on the other two, heck I don't want it to be trashed as an onwer of one. But, and this is a HUGE but; if ATI doesn't enter a car we WILL NEVER KNOW! Come on someone steup up!
I added 10 hole P.E. 380cc Injectors and next up in the mail already is a SARD fuel pump.
I am sure I could take the Stillen in the 1/4 and rwhp but that is not a fair test.
Either they test tuner kits or they test complete kits. I bought the complete kit and think it has well... issues to be polite.
Rather than whine about it I worked around the issues. I mean I drive my car to work in 3 different counties I can't be worrying about trying to stay under 4k rpm's when I am running late.
So let's get a "complete ATI Kit" in this thing it's a must. SOMEONE step up. If I was the product maker or even a Vendor trying to sell these things I woul PAY soemone to get their car in. If it's "all that" then lets read about it in print. I honestly hope it puts the smack down on the other two, heck I don't want it to be trashed as an onwer of one. But, and this is a HUGE but; if ATI doesn't enter a car we WILL NEVER KNOW! Come on someone steup up!
12-09-2003, 03:03 PM
#179
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Sorry for coming into the conversation midway! but the topic is of much interest to me as I'm looking to SC my 350. I'm a little ignorant to what is needed, what comes with what and what is available in the SC relm for 350.
It sounds like ATI should never have said this kit is as simple as just bolt it on and go! But it does sound like there is a good combination "tuned" available for this kit.
Can someone explain to me how the TS ECM has an effect on firm shift points. I think I understand about the fuel and timing retarding.
It sounds like ATI should never have said this kit is as simple as just bolt it on and go! But it does sound like there is a good combination "tuned" available for this kit.
Can someone explain to me how the TS ECM has an effect on firm shift points. I think I understand about the fuel and timing retarding.
12-09-2003, 03:47 PM
#180
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Adjusting shift points is probably similar to the way Hypertech lets you not only increase or decrease shift points but also adjust shift firmness +25-100 %. Very effective at the track to. You are correct though, if you buy the tuner kit and put the extra 800 into injectors, then add a few buck for a TS reflash you are safely in the game.
I too now retract any comments that put Mike of Altered Atmosphere in a bad light (which I don't think I did but just in case.) Dude calls me at my house all the way from MD! Gotta respect someone who cares enough to call you. Now if ATI could care as much then they could turn this around. But Mike doesn't control ATI. He is a good guy though and his website gets better and better. Now I have said my peace.
I too now retract any comments that put Mike of Altered Atmosphere in a bad light (which I don't think I did but just in case.) Dude calls me at my house all the way from MD! Gotta respect someone who cares enough to call you. Now if ATI could care as much then they could turn this around. But Mike doesn't control ATI. He is a good guy though and his website gets better and better. Now I have said my peace.