What has happened to the FI forum.
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; Dec 24, 2010 at 07:57 AM.
^ Some valid points. But also a sad commentary on the motivation, demands, and complacency of the VQ community IMO.
It's sad that we're on the verge of 2011 and the number of 1000+whp builds can still be counted on one hand. The same can be said for the number of 9 second cars. And there aren't many more cars in the 800whp or 10 second range either. Hell... It's embarassing that a G still hasn't gone into the 10's yet.
By now there should be more than one unibody Z or G in the 8's too. Granted... not everybody wants (or can afford) a 1000+whp drag car. But I expected there would be a lot more 700+whp and sub-11 second Z's and G's by now. I really expected that the VQ community at large would follow in the footsteps of the 2JZ community. I was optimistic that the Z/G would equal and might eventually surpass the accomplishments of the Supra both on the dyno and at the drag strip (especially as shops w/ accomplished histories on the 2JZ started to get involved with the VQ). But alas, we still have a long way to go.
Either at the shop or at car shows & meets or on forums & magazines, I have rarely seen a Mark IV Supra with less than 700+whp. A sub-700whp "build" isn't even thread worthy over on supraforums. Instead... we have an FI section riddled (I would say polluted) with "build threads" (many by shops) proudly touting/showcasing sub-600whp cars as some major accomplishment and in conjunction we have a community in which 99% of the FI guys are complacently (some arrogantly) rolling around with 400-600whp VQ's... a power level which is commonplace on most 4-cylinder platforms with practically half the displacement (including those Honda/Acura guys with motors that came NA from the factory). Given the amount of years that this platform has been in existance and relative to the FI accomplishments of other platforms, the VQ has fallen short of its potential and should be farther along IMO. Bottom line: FI in the VQ community has been weaksauce in comparison to other platforms ...and it's reflected in the FI secion of my350z.
That explains the short term and immediate present, but not why the FI section of my350z has been in steady decline for a long period of time now. I have acknowledged that the crappy economy is partially to blame. But our community has also been held back by:
As for the new EFR turbos... several other forums on other platforms, both import & domestic/factory NA & FI, have already started threads and been discussing the topic since SEMA. It seems to be making a buzz everywhere else. Why not here on my350z? Why are the VQ guys consistently the last ones to hop on the bus when something new and innovative is introduced to the aftermarket industry at large? A turbine that's 50% lighter than comparably sized inconel wheels is nothing to scoff at or be dismissive about. It's sad and disappointing to see such a lack of enthusiasm and anticipation here on our forum.
It's sad that we're on the verge of 2011 and the number of 1000+whp builds can still be counted on one hand. The same can be said for the number of 9 second cars. And there aren't many more cars in the 800whp or 10 second range either. Hell... It's embarassing that a G still hasn't gone into the 10's yet. By now there should be more than one unibody Z or G in the 8's too. Granted... not everybody wants (or can afford) a 1000+whp drag car. But I expected there would be a lot more 700+whp and sub-11 second Z's and G's by now. I really expected that the VQ community at large would follow in the footsteps of the 2JZ community. I was optimistic that the Z/G would equal and might eventually surpass the accomplishments of the Supra both on the dyno and at the drag strip (especially as shops w/ accomplished histories on the 2JZ started to get involved with the VQ). But alas, we still have a long way to go.Either at the shop or at car shows & meets or on forums & magazines, I have rarely seen a Mark IV Supra with less than 700+whp. A sub-700whp "build" isn't even thread worthy over on supraforums. Instead... we have an FI section riddled (I would say polluted) with "build threads" (many by shops) proudly touting/showcasing sub-600whp cars as some major accomplishment and in conjunction we have a community in which 99% of the FI guys are complacently (some arrogantly) rolling around with 400-600whp VQ's... a power level which is commonplace on most 4-cylinder platforms with practically half the displacement (including those Honda/Acura guys with motors that came NA from the factory). Given the amount of years that this platform has been in existance and relative to the FI accomplishments of other platforms, the VQ has fallen short of its potential and should be farther along IMO. Bottom line: FI in the VQ community has been weaksauce in comparison to other platforms ...and it's reflected in the FI secion of my350z.
That explains the short term and immediate present, but not why the FI section of my350z has been in steady decline for a long period of time now. I have acknowledged that the crappy economy is partially to blame. But our community has also been held back by:
- numerous shops who are better at marketing, self promotion, and forum politics than they are at building and/or tuning high power FI cars.
- the clueless nuthuggers of those shops.
- a lack of competent DIY'ers who fab their own FI setups.
- a demographic that has largely consisted of NOOBS to FI and the performance aftermarket in general with no prior high power FI experience on another platforms.
- a forum culture on my350z (particularly in the FI section) that has a chronic problem of wearing blinders and living in a VQ glass bubble.
As for the new EFR turbos... several other forums on other platforms, both import & domestic/factory NA & FI, have already started threads and been discussing the topic since SEMA. It seems to be making a buzz everywhere else. Why not here on my350z? Why are the VQ guys consistently the last ones to hop on the bus when something new and innovative is introduced to the aftermarket industry at large? A turbine that's 50% lighter than comparably sized inconel wheels is nothing to scoff at or be dismissive about. It's sad and disappointing to see such a lack of enthusiasm and anticipation here on our forum.
Shop nutthugger...no not rude at all
DIY fi build...........yeah rude is doing his, not some shop or anything ( according to sig)
OP has had two off the shelf kits (me too, whats wrong with it?)
I love reading the threads about customs builds. Not everyone has access to a good shop or the know how to do it themselves.
My "build" may not meet your expectations but I dont care. Im building my car for me. Its not a check book or shop build
I don't know why I typed axle...
Anyone else thing rude's post is ironic?
Shop nutthugger...no not rude at all
DIY fi build...........yeah rude is doing his, not some shop or anything ( according to sig)
OP has had two off the shelf kits (me too, whats wrong with it?)
I love reading the threads about customs builds. Not everyone has access to a good shop or the know how to do it themselves.
My "build" may not meet your expectations but I dont care. Im building my car for me. Its not a check book or shop build
Shop nutthugger...no not rude at all
DIY fi build...........yeah rude is doing his, not some shop or anything ( according to sig)
OP has had two off the shelf kits (me too, whats wrong with it?)
I love reading the threads about customs builds. Not everyone has access to a good shop or the know how to do it themselves.
My "build" may not meet your expectations but I dont care. Im building my car for me. Its not a check book or shop build
Granted... not everybody wants (or can afford) a 1000+whp drag car. But I expected there would be a lot more 700+whp and sub-11 second Z's and G's by now. I really expected that the VQ community at large would follow in the footsteps of the 2JZ community.
BTW... I don't nuthug those shops that I feel have been partially responsible for holding this community back.
Do you feel that Intense has held the VQ community back or has shown an inability to make high powered VQ builds?
They are one of the very few shops that is a member of the 1000+whp club on the VQ platform and they have reached 4 digits on other platforms prior to the VQ.No, I am not a DIY'er. I don't have any prior mechanical background or experience. Also, my career and work schedule don't allow me much time to work on my own car. I spend my days off and most of my free time working off-duty jobs to pay for the car project. However, I am very involved in my car project with Intense compared to most customers who write a check or swipe a credit card (Just ask them
). I respect the competent DIY guys and the innovation they often bring to the table. I think the DIY'ers are an integral and crucial part of any flourishing and progressive FI community.Again, sorry if my post offended you. Happy Holidays
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; Dec 24, 2010 at 03:18 PM.
the only reason i singled out PL, is because thats who I was tryin to deal with in 2009 when I had money to burn on a kit. They didnt want my money, so I went elsewhere. No harm no foul.
Every big shop is a member of the 1k hp club. VTR, Intense, Sound Performance, Injected, Forged, S&R Performance
So you are saying that since Intense promoted 2 cars with 1 off kits that made 1000+, that they were unwilling to reproduce, was a positive step forward for the community?
Intense persay didnt hold the community back, but their collaborator PL did. They had a 76mm bolt on kit years ago. But they didnt want to produce it. How else would you describe that.
Every big shop is a member of the 1k hp club. VTR, Intense, Sound Performance, Injected, Forged, S&R Performance
So you are saying that since Intense promoted 2 cars with 1 off kits that made 1000+, that they were unwilling to reproduce, was a positive step forward for the community?
Intense persay didnt hold the community back, but their collaborator PL did. They had a 76mm bolt on kit years ago. But they didnt want to produce it. How else would you describe that.
Last edited by str8dum1; Dec 24, 2010 at 09:40 AM.
comparing the supra community to the z community, while it has its similarities, i feel is a little more like apples to oranges.
supras blocks in stock trim have shown to hold a ton more power than our vq internals, so i can see why people get distraught over the thought of a build to simply hit numbers a supra can on a stock block.
another thing is price. supras are expensive to mod, but z's are more costly imho. i feel it starts out most people think theyll be satisfied with 400rwhp on a z. they get used to it, and get power hungry. but the price of power is sky high for our platforms compared to other platforms. cams for our cars are easy 1k, a decent f/i setup is at the very least 4k, and supporting mods often times cost as much as the kit in itself. then comes the build/downtime/lack of knowledge, etc. while 400whp is alot for a car, nowadays in the car community 400 isnt even benchmark for a car above 3000lbs. nobody gets excited about 400hp on anything, evos, sti's, z's, supras, especially with sub 30k cars like the 2011 mustang making that power level at about 30k msrp. i truly wish there were more diy kits or even just turbo manifolds for sale so the real diy'ers could utilize their skills. but the limited room and cost of such products is a turnoff.
it seems like people buy z's, do some mods, get turned off by all the money required to hit numbers other cars can easily, and move to different platforms. that and the fact that we have some dated technology with our earlier kits floating around. a prime example is th turbonetics kit-plain garbage but people still buy them. another thing to consider is the greddy tt kit the turbos run out of breath around mid 600's, and theres not alot of upgrades for that bolt pattern that make great power. also factor in the price of other shop kits, like sp, gtm, sfr, which hover around the 7-8k range, seems a bit steep considering the amount of supporting mods required to hit those high numbers.
in reality, i seem to feel the same way, i put about 30k into my z, and will hit over 800's for sure come spring, but the price from my perspective isnt worth it. in total with the car (bought in 05) have about 55k into it. that is ridiculous. i couldve bought a viper or early model ferrari 360, or a supra for example and made crazy hp numbers and still have money left.
i put literally 4k into my evo and made more power than people with 10k in tt and supporting mods make. even stock turboed evos are hitting 400's, and it makes alot of people think twice about this platform. i recall looking at evo intake manifolds for $600 and im thinking holy **** thats cheap, while everybody is crying over how expensive it is..truth be told i was just so used to sky high 1k+ msrp on our manifolds...which dont even net any extensive gains. i love my z,and will keep both of mine for a long time, but its not an easy car to work on and isnt wallet friendly at all.
on a sidenote, i noticed many of the z members are more about show than go. youll see more crazy hp supras that look stock than you will find z's of the same nature. it usually goes aesthetics, then people seem to go the power route after they put 5k into the aesthetics of a z, because everybody here is "volks only everything else is garbage" and "bbk to fill in those wheels" on a street car that sees no track time. its a different atmosphere imho. i just started and couldnt stop with this car.
supras blocks in stock trim have shown to hold a ton more power than our vq internals, so i can see why people get distraught over the thought of a build to simply hit numbers a supra can on a stock block.
another thing is price. supras are expensive to mod, but z's are more costly imho. i feel it starts out most people think theyll be satisfied with 400rwhp on a z. they get used to it, and get power hungry. but the price of power is sky high for our platforms compared to other platforms. cams for our cars are easy 1k, a decent f/i setup is at the very least 4k, and supporting mods often times cost as much as the kit in itself. then comes the build/downtime/lack of knowledge, etc. while 400whp is alot for a car, nowadays in the car community 400 isnt even benchmark for a car above 3000lbs. nobody gets excited about 400hp on anything, evos, sti's, z's, supras, especially with sub 30k cars like the 2011 mustang making that power level at about 30k msrp. i truly wish there were more diy kits or even just turbo manifolds for sale so the real diy'ers could utilize their skills. but the limited room and cost of such products is a turnoff.
it seems like people buy z's, do some mods, get turned off by all the money required to hit numbers other cars can easily, and move to different platforms. that and the fact that we have some dated technology with our earlier kits floating around. a prime example is th turbonetics kit-plain garbage but people still buy them. another thing to consider is the greddy tt kit the turbos run out of breath around mid 600's, and theres not alot of upgrades for that bolt pattern that make great power. also factor in the price of other shop kits, like sp, gtm, sfr, which hover around the 7-8k range, seems a bit steep considering the amount of supporting mods required to hit those high numbers.
in reality, i seem to feel the same way, i put about 30k into my z, and will hit over 800's for sure come spring, but the price from my perspective isnt worth it. in total with the car (bought in 05) have about 55k into it. that is ridiculous. i couldve bought a viper or early model ferrari 360, or a supra for example and made crazy hp numbers and still have money left.
i put literally 4k into my evo and made more power than people with 10k in tt and supporting mods make. even stock turboed evos are hitting 400's, and it makes alot of people think twice about this platform. i recall looking at evo intake manifolds for $600 and im thinking holy **** thats cheap, while everybody is crying over how expensive it is..truth be told i was just so used to sky high 1k+ msrp on our manifolds...which dont even net any extensive gains. i love my z,and will keep both of mine for a long time, but its not an easy car to work on and isnt wallet friendly at all.
on a sidenote, i noticed many of the z members are more about show than go. youll see more crazy hp supras that look stock than you will find z's of the same nature. it usually goes aesthetics, then people seem to go the power route after they put 5k into the aesthetics of a z, because everybody here is "volks only everything else is garbage" and "bbk to fill in those wheels" on a street car that sees no track time. its a different atmosphere imho. i just started and couldnt stop with this car.
Last edited by bbs350z; Dec 24, 2010 at 12:14 PM.
interesting point. its a shame people spend 1k on rails, a regulator, lines and fittings. i bought an sp triple pump, ran me about 900, regulator about 150, rails about 200, and misc fittings and lines which ran a few hundred. i made all my own lines and replicated how sp did theres but with a few different tricks i felt would be better. i spent about 1500 on my fuel setup and can make all the power i want, while most people would have a basic return kit and a pump. alot of it is simplicity. its simple. buy and install. i would feel ripped off if i sepnt 1 on lines and a regulator because it was "drop in", but thats just me. i would also feel ripped off giving a shop xxxx $ to do the same things i can as far as assembly (not actual engine build). maybe there needs to be more hands on experiences on this forum, or maybe theres not alot documented by the diy guys. i personally know aside from myself 2 guys in my area alone (quamen and eltness 350) who have literally built there z's themselves. to me, that sells itself.
good points. the only thing I dont do is build the motor.
My current build already has 550 pics on my camera but nothing earth shattering. Just lil details that make it unique. Its easy as pie to make your own SS lines and wire in gauges etc.
I wish someone would come up with an easy way to sump our gas tanks. That will make big fuel systems readily available.
BBS, do you have a problem with your fuel gauge below 1/4 tank like Thom00001 and Cass?
My current build already has 550 pics on my camera but nothing earth shattering. Just lil details that make it unique. Its easy as pie to make your own SS lines and wire in gauges etc.
I wish someone would come up with an easy way to sump our gas tanks. That will make big fuel systems readily available.
BBS, do you have a problem with your fuel gauge below 1/4 tank like Thom00001 and Cass?
interesting point. its a shame people spend 1k on rails, a regulator, lines and fittings. i bought an sp triple pump, ran me about 900, regulator about 150, rails about 200, and misc fittings and lines which ran a few hundred. i made all my own lines and replicated how sp did theres but with a few different tricks i felt would be better. i spent about 1500 on my fuel setup and can make all the power i want, while most people would have a basic return kit and a pump. alot of it is simplicity. its simple. buy and install. i would feel ripped off if i sepnt 1 on lines and a regulator because it was "drop in", but thats just me. i would also feel ripped off giving a shop xxxx $ to do the same things i can as far as assembly (not actual engine build). maybe there needs to be more hands on experiences on this forum, or maybe theres not alot documented by the diy guys. i personally know aside from myself 2 guys in my area alone (quamen and eltness 350) who have literally built there z's themselves. to me, that sells itself.
New Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 512
Likes: 0
From: Massachusetts
Don't loose all hope guys, there are still new guys who, while F/I noobs are still willing to get dirty and go all out on this platform. I know this since I am one. Now I did buy a kit simply for the custom route would have been a lot more $$$ for the same results. I DIY'd my tt in my driveway on jack stands and it was amazing. Best exp with my any car I've had to date. Learned so much and that first drive, wow such a great feeling knowing I did that 
Economy pending, I do want 4 digit numbers. I'd love to help bring that club beyond the "can count on one hand" area and get more people on there. Once I get taxes back I'm going to be starting my build, and I mean buy a block and built it (most likely in my workshop and porch...short or machining of course) If I read bbs350z right, I'm right with him, why buy something or pay someone else when you can make it/do it yourself. There are still some of us out here, don't give up on us yet.
Economy pending, I do want 4 digit numbers. I'd love to help bring that club beyond the "can count on one hand" area and get more people on there. Once I get taxes back I'm going to be starting my build, and I mean buy a block and built it (most likely in my workshop and porch...short or machining of course) If I read bbs350z right, I'm right with him, why buy something or pay someone else when you can make it/do it yourself. There are still some of us out here, don't give up on us yet.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,311
Likes: 0
From: Dallas/NewYork/Michigan/Korea
Come on man, i think these guys are also sick of hearing dream talk.
Supras are also nearing 20 years old, have a far more capable block (stock), and the owners tend to be older than your current avg z owner. I don't know why this is surprising to people. Off the shelf kits do a pretty good job on these cars and frankly, few have the money to build, let alone use, a 700whp+ Z. Drag stuff is dead now, has been for awhile. The industry itself has plateau'd at IMHO will take a strong sustained economy coupled with another affordable car to expand again.
Last edited by Z1 Performance; Dec 24, 2010 at 02:04 PM.
the only reason i singled out PL, is because thats who I was tryin to deal with in 2009 when I had money to burn on a kit. They didnt want my money, so I went elsewhere. No harm no foul.
Every big shop is a member of the 1k hp club. VTR, Intense, Sound Performance, Injected, Forged, S&R Performance
So you are saying that since Intense promoted 2 cars with 1 off kits that made 1000+, that they were unwilling to reproduce, was a positive step forward for the community?
Intense persay didnt hold the community back, but their collaborator PL did. They had a 76mm bolt on kit years ago. But they didnt want to produce it. How else would you describe that.
Every big shop is a member of the 1k hp club. VTR, Intense, Sound Performance, Injected, Forged, S&R Performance
So you are saying that since Intense promoted 2 cars with 1 off kits that made 1000+, that they were unwilling to reproduce, was a positive step forward for the community?
Intense persay didnt hold the community back, but their collaborator PL did. They had a 76mm bolt on kit years ago. But they didnt want to produce it. How else would you describe that.
I believe PowerLab had serious intentions to produce the 76S kit for resale when they saw the initial enthusiasm of the community about their kit. But then were a few complaints from guys having fitment/install issues with the standard 35R kit with the 3" downpipe. A couple threads were created about it that quickly got nasty with forum politics from rival shops (who weren't PowerLab dealers) and from the peanut gallery (most of whom had not yet seen a PowerLab kit in person) fanning the flames of drama. I think the negativity and drama of those threads left a bitter taste in Powerlab's mouth.
Due to those negative threads and the fact that the install on the 76S kit is more complicated with tight tolerances to accomodate a larger 3.5" downpipe versus the 35R kit, I think PowerLab essentially said "F*ck it!" and decided not to take the risk of making the 76S kit available for resale to other dealers or the general public/DIY crowd. Keeping it in-house at Intense seemed like a prudent decision to PowerLab to ensure that the 76S kit would be installed correctly and to prevent further headaches from the forums regarding fitment complaints/install issues. IIRC, it was shortly after those drama threads that the final decision was made that the 76S kit would only be available for install at Intense. The 76S kit is still available for those who are truly and seriously interested.
So IMO the typical forum BS in the FI section is more to blame than PowerLab for why the 76S kit wasn't released for wide-scale production and availability to the VQ community.
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; Dec 25, 2010 at 11:35 AM.
not anything yet, but then again ive only had my car running for about 20 minutes after i got everything assembled the second time around. i was told by vince and larry to just keep it above 1/4 all the time. i've been contemplating just ditching the factory gas tank and running a fuel cell of some sort in the near future anyways
Last edited by bbs350z; Dec 24, 2010 at 04:30 PM.
Eric, you have more insight to the PL decisions than I do. Its just a shame they didnt release it or their twin 37kit. If you can do it once, you can do it twice as fast a second time around. any DIY knows that.
We both know the GT35 is too small for real enthusiasts. Thats a 2L turbo.
If you thinking fitting twin 6262s was a walk in the park, guess again. I woulda rather dealt with a single 76s! You say its available, but its NOT!!! I am not your credit card ***** but PL/Intense wanted nothing to do with selling a 76 kit.
No BS here. Honest attempt that was denied and forum advancement denied, that simple.
We both know the GT35 is too small for real enthusiasts. Thats a 2L turbo.
If you thinking fitting twin 6262s was a walk in the park, guess again. I woulda rather dealt with a single 76s! You say its available, but its NOT!!! I am not your credit card ***** but PL/Intense wanted nothing to do with selling a 76 kit.
No BS here. Honest attempt that was denied and forum advancement denied, that simple.
The 76S version of the PowerLab kit in the Intense shop G was a prototype, but I wouldn't call it a custom one off that they were unwilling to reproduce. Jorge has the 76S kit and others can have that kit installed too if they if they take their car to Intense. The twin 37R setup was determined to be unsuitable for production as a kit due to the significant amount of custom fab required to make it fit, including relocation & modification of both power steering and A/C components.
I believe PowerLab had serious intentions to produce the 76S kit for resale when they saw the initial enthusiasm of the community about their kit. But then were a few complaints from guys having fitment/install issues with the standard 35R kit with the 3" downpipe. A couple threads were created about it that quickly got nasty with forum politics from rival shops (who weren't PowerLab dealers) and from the peanut gallery (most of whom had not yet seen a PowerLab kit in person) fanning the flames of drama. I think the negativity and drama of those threads left a bitter taste in Powerlab's mouth.
Due to those negative threads and the fact that the install on the 76S kit is more complicated with tight tolerances to accomodate a larger 3.5" pipe versus the 35R kit, I think PowerLab essentially said "F*ck it!" and decided not to take the risk of making the 76S kit available for resale to other dealers or the general public/DIY crowd. The 76S kit is still available for those who are truly and seriously interested.
So IMO the typical forum BS in the FI section is more to blame than PowerLab for why the 76S kit wasn't released for wide-scale production and availability to the VQ community.
I believe PowerLab had serious intentions to produce the 76S kit for resale when they saw the initial enthusiasm of the community about their kit. But then were a few complaints from guys having fitment/install issues with the standard 35R kit with the 3" downpipe. A couple threads were created about it that quickly got nasty with forum politics from rival shops (who weren't PowerLab dealers) and from the peanut gallery (most of whom had not yet seen a PowerLab kit in person) fanning the flames of drama. I think the negativity and drama of those threads left a bitter taste in Powerlab's mouth.
Due to those negative threads and the fact that the install on the 76S kit is more complicated with tight tolerances to accomodate a larger 3.5" pipe versus the 35R kit, I think PowerLab essentially said "F*ck it!" and decided not to take the risk of making the 76S kit available for resale to other dealers or the general public/DIY crowd. The 76S kit is still available for those who are truly and seriously interested.
So IMO the typical forum BS in the FI section is more to blame than PowerLab for why the 76S kit wasn't released for wide-scale production and availability to the VQ community.
