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omg building an engine tech!!!!

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Old 04-10-2011, 09:19 PM
  #61  
Boosted Performance
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I always thought that this was a good read/test:

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf
Old 04-10-2011, 09:52 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Boosted Performance
I always thought that this was a good read/test:

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf
Yeah, that's been around the interwebs a couple of times. I'll just copy and paste my response to that article from the oil analysis thread:

The timken load test is no longer used by the SAE. It was used, up until about 30 years ago, to determine the presence of EP (Extreme Pressure) additives in the oil. It was never, and still isn't, used as any indication of an oil's performance. Here is a quote from the minutes taken at a recent meeting of the National Lubricatin Grease Institute:
In their paper, "The Timken Lubricant Test - 1932 to 1972", presented at the 40th annual meeting of the National
Lubricating Grease Institute, D.V. Culp and J.E. Leiser of the Timken Company reviewed the application and
significance of the OK Load Test with EP lubricants.

Two items discussed in the paper are of particular interest. The hypothesis that gear oils which have higher Timken OK values will provide better scoring protection for gears and bearings was developed in the early 1930's.
Recent developments in the chemical aspects of EP additives indicate that this is no longer true. In fact, it now appears that many of the more modern type chemical additives, particularly those successfully being used in the MIL-L-2105B type oils, have shown improved performance in preventing scoring in high temperature gear and bearing applications although they show a very decreased Timken load as compared to the leaded type or SCL type gear oils.

The authors also point out the lack of a direct across-the-board correlation between high Timken EP values and increased performance characteristics. It also appears that there is little correlation between Timken test results
and other EP tests results, such as the Falex, the four-Ball tester and the more recently used FZG gear type tester.

The significance of the observations made by the Timken Company concerning the limitations of the OK Load test in predicting actual performance of EP oils should be recognized when making a product recommendation. A proven record of satisfactory performance in similar applications is of greater importance in recommending a product than merely selecting one whose Timken OK Load Test rating meets the specification. Documentation of actual successful performance of EP oils is still the most valid way to support the claim that an oil will provide the
required protection of gears and bearings.

According to the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers, the Timken test is "questionable for use in evaluating levels of EP".
A copy of this is found in Lubes n' Greases Magazine, and I had a link to it, but it has since gone dead.

Now, if you know anything about the old test sequence of ASTM D2782, which is the timken EP test, then you would also know that they did the test wrong. And here is the response of Street Commodore in regards to their article after being called out on improperly using the timken EP test as a measure of oil performance:

you are right this test has very little to do with oil performance and should never have been published, we also entered the metric system 40 years ago! The primary role of lubrication is to keep parts apart and maintain oil integrity, not see what happens when metal to metal takes place, a symptom of some other problem...

Testing to reveal actual oil performance would have been beneficial, this may involve: testing oil chemical and physical properties , inspection (microscopic particle examination) of oil debris for wear modes/indicators and testing oil cleanliness to established ISO standards. These are the true tests of oil/machine performance.

For our application the best thing you can do is to use the correct viscosity (quality stable oil, may or may not be synth) and change out the oil regularly. We do not change oil out because it has 'broken down', we change it out to remove normal wear debris, the oil chemical and physical properties at this point should still be good.

so long life oils may hold there spec (synth for eg.) but you are still pumping all that wear debris through your bearings!!

BTW oils that 'polish' or chemically etch components when put through studies of MPE and ISO cleanliness can actually initially create a lot of wear debris before the ISO codes settle down.. go figure.
found here: http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=792653

So, in short, they incorrectly used a simple test rig not supported by any tribological study and designed to test only the presence of EP additives as a means of evaluating engine oil. Brilliant.

Will
Old 04-10-2011, 10:15 PM
  #63  
jerryd87
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One thinng I would like to point out there is they say the most accurate test is success in similar platforms. While conventional motor oils are successful to a point, the have also seen numerous failures. Granted I won't use mobile one I see no problem using conventional for lower power applications. However spun bearings seem to mysteriously happen above 550 hp with no explenation as to why as of yet. The only things I can think of are oil choice and assosiated clearances. Or heat causing an exagerated expansion above what would normally be seen. Either way I think running race oils, slightly larger oil clearances so it is on the larger side of specs that I posted earlyer and improved cooling system will ensure longer engine life. I'm still out on what causes the overheating it could still be headlift, had a buddy who had to retorque his 5.0 fox body's headstuds after every run with a vortec at 15 lbs.

Last edited by jerryd87; 12-06-2011 at 05:17 AM.
Old 12-06-2011, 05:23 AM
  #64  
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not trying to revive this just bumping it up for some of the newer people in the FI forum to read through
Old 12-06-2011, 10:18 PM
  #65  
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So we are spoon feeding newbs now? lawl

Nice job, but please add some white space... or rather blue space (put more spaces between the lines)
I'm far from old and it hurts MY eyes to the point where I read about a paragraph and don't want to read anymore.
Old 12-07-2011, 04:52 AM
  #66  
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eh it was getting pretty old and lost and i was hoping they would see it at the top and read it and quit asking questions. most of this was typed on my phone before i deployed.
Old 12-14-2011, 04:09 AM
  #67  
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I know when it comes to civil engineering the benefit of h beams is when they will experience greater forces across the top of the H the against the side of it. If the scenario is reversed you simply flip your H beam and you have an I beam. I has to do with the moment of intertia, or in physics, an objects resistance to rotational forces. Sorta like the rotational component of momentum.
Old 12-14-2011, 04:45 AM
  #68  
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Great read excellent information! Being young I couldn't ask for any better of a thread. However I do vote to say keep this thread a good informational one instead of arguementive; we have enough of those in the general section...
Old 12-14-2011, 11:57 AM
  #69  
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i might have more details in june on building an engine with specs and clearances and such. im not 100% sure yet im highly considering just building my own engine as no one offers a package with 8.0:1 pistons, plus the shipping and core charges are kinda insane. i can get wossner rods, wossner pistons, hks head gasket, full set of arp hardware, billet girdle, solid motor mounts, rev up oil pump, oem gasket kit, fluidamper crank pulley, kelford cams, viton valve seals, and the machine work i need done all for only about 200 bucks more then it would cost to just have a shortblock sent to me without sending a core. =/
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