I'm done with this $hit..
it seems for the most part people pushing past 550hp(there are some exceptions of course) have spun bearings thats what makes me think they are trying to use stock clearance bearings. the heat beyond that power level is just too much and closes the clearance so much that the bearing catchs and spins. im seriously considering just building the engine myself even if it costs a little bit more. or having the shop send me proof they are using larger oil clearance bearings.
Spun bearings is a common issue - on any engine that wasn't built properly, or blueprinted for a specific purpose. If you didn't get the blueprint, or your machinist doesn't have it on file for you, you don't have a built motor. You've got a motor with a bunch of stuff in it. Doesn't matter if it's a Nissan engine, a Mitsubishi engine, a Porsche engine. Any engine not properly clearanced and not properly put together is a grenade with an intedermined fuse length. It has everything to do with who puts it together, and very little to do with X piston instead of Y, or A brand of rods instead of B, or Bearing manufacturer ZZ vs bearing manufacturer RR. People spend all their time obsessing over one individual component vs another, yet they don't dedicate even a fraction of that time into deciding who will put all the pieces of the puzzle together. All too often they go for the lowest common denominator, and make the decision on price alone. It has the potential to be a really expensive recipe for disaster. There is a difference between an assembled engine and a truly built engine. Unfortunately some people have had to find out the hard way, multiple times. That being said, no engine builder is immune to a hiccup every once in a while. No engine builder can say they have never had a failure. Even at the highest echelons of motorsport, where budgets are virtually unlimited and people have decades of trained staff to do a build, a catastrophy can happen. An engine is, afterall, a machine, and it's highly user-dependant. Few builders can take responsibility for user neglect, no matter what form it may take. Unfortunately in the aftermarket tuning community, it seems to happen with a decent amount of regularity. One of the risks you take when building a car to a certain level is the risk that something will go wrong. You can't take for granted if something doesn't go wrong. Count your blessings. You have to be prepared to accept it when it happens, and expect it to happen. But I do feel bad for guys who in a few thousand miles have had to shell out for multiple engine builds, be it this, or any other platform. That tells you something is amiss in the building process. Unfortunately it gets to be an expensive lesson to learn that some places are better than others.
This is one of those instances where a real machinist becomes invaluable.
Last edited by Z1 Performance; Jul 11, 2011 at 04:54 PM.
Spun bearings is a common issue - on any engine that wasn't built properly, or blueprinted for a specific purpose. If you didn't get the blueprint, or your machinist doesn't have it on file for you, you don't have a built motor. You've got a motor with a bunch of stuff in it. Doesn't matter if it's a Nissan engine, a Mitsubishi engine, a Porsche engine. Any engine not properly clearanced and not properly put together is a grenade with an intedermined fuse length. It has everything to do with who puts it together, and very little to do with X piston instead of Y, or A brand of rods instead of B, or Bearing manufacturer ZZ vs bearing manufacturer RR. People spend all their time obsessing over one individual component vs another, yet they don't dedicate even a fraction of that time into deciding who will put all the pieces of the puzzle together. All too often they go for the lowest common denominator, and make the decision on price alone. It has the potential to be a really expensive recipe for disaster. There is a difference between an assembled engine and a truly built engine. Unfortunately some people have had to find out the hard way, multiple times. That being said, no engine builder is immune to a hiccup every once in a while. No engine builder can say they have never had a failure. Even at the highest echelons of motorsport, where budgets are virtually unlimited and people have decades of trained staff to do a build, a catastrophy can happen. An engine is, afterall, a machine, and it's highly user-dependant. Few builders can take responsibility for user neglect, no matter what form it may take. Unfortunately in the aftermarket tuning community, it seems to happen with a decent amount of regularity. One of the risks you take when building a car to a certain level is the risk that something will go wrong. You can't take for granted if something doesn't go wrong. Count your blessings. You have to be prepared to accept it when it happens, and expect it to happen. But I do feel bad for guys who in a few thousand miles have had to shell out for multiple engine builds, be it this, or any other platform. That tells you something is amiss in the building process. Unfortunately it gets to be an expensive lesson to learn that some places are better than others.
And thats it in a nutshell folks lol.
Couldn't agree more Adam. At the end of the day you have to realize you are dealing with some VERY tight tolerances and these components are being subjected to some extreme conditions. Just because you buy the "best" doesn't mean **** without the correct measurements and checks being followed.
OP: Hopefully you will resolve your issues. If you choose to keep the car i would HIGHLY suggest you maybe start tinkering with building a engine on the side yourself and learning how to do some of the work yourself. That way at the end of the day the blame can only fall back on one person, you lol.
Last edited by chris'smax; Jul 11, 2011 at 05:03 PM.
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And thats it in a nutshell folks lol.
Couldn't agree more Adam. At the end of the day you have to realize you are dealing with some VERY tight tolerances and these components are being subjected to some extreme conditions. Just because you buy the "best" doesn't mean **** without the correct measurements and checks being followed.
OP: Hopefully you will resolve your issues. If you choose to keep the car i would HIGHLY suggest you maybe start tinkering with building a engine on the side yourself and learning how to do some of the work yourself. That way at the end of the day the blame can only fall back on one person, you lol.
Couldn't agree more Adam. At the end of the day you have to realize you are dealing with some VERY tight tolerances and these components are being subjected to some extreme conditions. Just because you buy the "best" doesn't mean **** without the correct measurements and checks being followed.
OP: Hopefully you will resolve your issues. If you choose to keep the car i would HIGHLY suggest you maybe start tinkering with building a engine on the side yourself and learning how to do some of the work yourself. That way at the end of the day the blame can only fall back on one person, you lol.
Yes I too agree with Adam .... And it's so true about high end builders... I have seen 60k Porsche motors blow up on an engine dyno and all the mechanic could do is
...It happens at all levels... But usually won't happen by the same mechanic on the following rebuild because everyone involved will watch their azz the next time around.... But in Cass case all I can do is
... His second motor should have lasted forever
So I felt Chris chose the wrong mechanic/s to do his build.... 3 or 4 times is just BS.
Ill take that bet any day of the week. I don't know albertos story because it was before my time but cass chose the same builders over and over again. What about you? Did the same builder put this motor together 3 times?
Hi Chris....
Yes I too agree with Adam .... And it's so true about high end builders... I have seen 60k Porsche motors blow up on an engine dyno and all the mechanic could do is ...
It happens at all levels... But usually won't happen by the same mechanic on the following rebuild because everyone involved will watch their azz the next time around.... But in Cass case all I can do is ... His second motor should have lasted forever So I felt Chris chose the wrong mechanic/s to do his build.... 3 or 4 times is just BS.
Yes I too agree with Adam .... And it's so true about high end builders... I have seen 60k Porsche motors blow up on an engine dyno and all the mechanic could do is
...It happens at all levels... But usually won't happen by the same mechanic on the following rebuild because everyone involved will watch their azz the next time around.... But in Cass case all I can do is
... His second motor should have lasted forever So I felt Chris chose the wrong mechanic/s to do his build.... 3 or 4 times is just BS.I agree there can be exceptions where you just flat out have bad luck, but most of the time problems point back to assembly and tune.
Spun bearings is a common issue - on any engine that wasn't built properly, or blueprinted for a specific purpose. If you didn't get the blueprint, or your machinist doesn't have it on file for you, you don't have a built motor. You've got a motor with a bunch of stuff in it. Doesn't matter if it's a Nissan engine, a Mitsubishi engine, a Porsche engine. Any engine not properly clearanced and not properly put together is a grenade with an intedermined fuse length. It has everything to do with who puts it together, and very little to do with X piston instead of Y, or A brand of rods instead of B, or Bearing manufacturer ZZ vs bearing manufacturer RR. People spend all their time obsessing over one individual component vs another, yet they don't dedicate even a fraction of that time into deciding who will put all the pieces of the puzzle together. All too often they go for the lowest common denominator, and make the decision on price alone. It has the potential to be a really expensive recipe for disaster. There is a difference between an assembled engine and a truly built engine. Unfortunately some people have had to find out the hard way, multiple times. That being said, no engine builder is immune to a hiccup every once in a while. No engine builder can say they have never had a failure. Even at the highest echelons of motorsport, where budgets are virtually unlimited and people have decades of trained staff to do a build, a catastrophy can happen. An engine is, afterall, a machine, and it's highly user-dependant. Few builders can take responsibility for user neglect, no matter what form it may take. Unfortunately in the aftermarket tuning community, it seems to happen with a decent amount of regularity. One of the risks you take when building a car to a certain level is the risk that something will go wrong. You can't take for granted if something doesn't go wrong. Count your blessings. You have to be prepared to accept it when it happens, and expect it to happen. But I do feel bad for guys who in a few thousand miles have had to shell out for multiple engine builds, be it this, or any other platform. That tells you something is amiss in the building process. Unfortunately it gets to be an expensive lesson to learn that some places are better than others.
Too many people spend the money and research on parts and not the actual assembly/builder.I get the feeling the fact OP is out of the US has something to do with shoddy work... and no I'm not one of those 'america is better than everyone else' kinds of people.
I don't know how long you got to listen to the clicking.. Were there any vibrations? You said you just left the exhaust shop... Sure it wasn't an exhaust leak? Because they also say click click click
It sure would be nice to be something that simple. Keep us updated.
It sure would be nice to be something that simple. Keep us updated.
Good luck OP
I did have my built 5AT fail in 2 weeks of first delivery back in 2007 (I checked ATF and it was more than 2 qts low) and I believe Sam did a full rebuild at his cost and FP covered round trip shipping. GTM could've pointed at FP and visa versa but they didn't give me the run around and just handled it no questions asked and no money out of pocket for me (built trans cost > $4k). That was before they parted ways though. It's harder to manage issues the farther away you live from your builder. Ideal situation is being local to a reputable shop.
Sorry to her about the bad news, I haven't had as many setback but have been close to that going back to stock point, it really makes you gun shy to do it again
I know I left it to my machinist to figure out the size bearing to use, and didn't purchase those separately. He used coated ACL bearings and no issues.
I agree in that the machinist is the most crucial part of the process, anyone can follow a manual and put an engine together but the machinist part needs an artist that will balance the **** out of the engine as well as get all of the clearances, bearings and piston/wall clearances, perfect.
I agree in that the machinist is the most crucial part of the process, anyone can follow a manual and put an engine together but the machinist part needs an artist that will balance the **** out of the engine as well as get all of the clearances, bearings and piston/wall clearances, perfect.
For the record, I had stock Nissan bearings and ACL's fail. I had Frank Hill do an assembly and had Justice Racing do assemblies. Justice builds race engines for a living and has several boosted VQs running around the Mid-A without issue. Frank has a similar track record as well. Every engine that was assembled @ Justice came with a full spec sheet of weights and tollerences.
When my last motor failed I was monitoring temps and pressures and had just spent $1K on a custom dual oil cooler setup and the pressure just crept lower and lower until I parked it and pulled the oil to see the flakes.
I agree that most failures seem to occur as the whp approaches 600+.
Show me an engine builder in this forum that once said that an engine failure was his fault and covered his work.
People that haven't experienced failures or don't have built F/I setups that offer advice or tell me what I should have done can just STFU. Build something, drop $15-20K into a project and then throw it all in the trash and come back and let someone running bolt-ons tell you what you should have done differently... see how that feels.
Spend months building relationships with a shop and then burn that bridge when you blame the fail on them and try and show your face at the local meets where the shop is supported. Call them out in a thread and feel how awesome it is to rag on someone who most likely gave you a huge smile on your face when the car started for the first time or just rolls off the dyno.
Just some random thoughts I have on this subject.