Waiting w/ $$'s in hand to SC yer 350z?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas
Waiting w/ $$'s in hand to SC yer 350z?
Here is some of what I have learned from the Z forums so far:
1) The ATI/Procharger makes more HP & Tq than any other SC kit available for the 350Z if properly tuned and your car does not have the timing problem that 10% of the cars have. (mine being one of them)
2) ATI launched the sale of the Procharger kit too soon without enough data or enough cars/installs tested.
3) ATI did not supply everything needed to make the kit complete. (timing management)
4) Less than 10% of us with the ATI kit have the detonation problem. (unfortunately I am in that 10%)
5) The folks that have done the proper tuning and have applied the additional gadgets to make up for ATI’s “lack of a complete kit” are making $hitloads of reliable horsepower, well, at least this week.
6) There are several solutions for the detonation problem.
--a) E-Manage ($650 not installed)
--b) J&S Safeguard ($500 not installed)
--c) Retune the factory ECU (price varies $500 to $1500)
--c) Stay under 6kRPM (free!) (does not get my vote)
--d) Buy a lower boost kit and live with it (Greddy, Stillen, ect.)
....among others. (unsatisfying)
Best I can tell the only way you’ll get engine damage is cylinder pressure too high or detonation/ping/pre-ignition. ( I did not include the ridiculous here to save time; no oil in motor, ect.) The detonation/ping/pre-ignition is a fixable issue at this point. The high cylinder pressure issue should not be an issue unless there are other power adders installed. I have not heard from anyone yet on how much is too much for the VQ35 but some of the Z’s in the magazines are pushing way beyond just an ATI kit with the stock lower end and having no problems so far (JIC car, AXIS car). What are they doing different than the guys who windowed their blocks? Could it be that if your gonna add other mods to your Z you should really seek the help of someone VERY, VERY qualified? At the point where someone exceeds the manufacturers suggested maximums they really should have better than average acumen for what they are getting involved in.
Don’t get me wrong here, I am pretty pi$$ed that ATI sold me an incomplete SC solution for $5k-plus and did not mention that there was a 10% chance that I would need to spend another $600-$1200 to make the SC work properly on my car. I called and asked about this one day last week. ATI is aware of the problem but offered no compensation of any kind. They did not offer to refund or partial rebate for “serving me a $hit sandwich for dinner”, nothing. Nor did they really know how to solve the problem (so they claimed). I was told that they have not had this problem with any of the many 350's they tested the kit on before going to market but they had heard about this issue with approximately 10% of the kits sold. How many is MANY? How many Z's did they test the kit on?
What I don’t understand is why anyone, at this point, would be waiting for something different to come to market that makes the same HP as the ATI kit but does not have the risk of the ATI kit. If it makes the same power as the ATI kit it will have the risks involved. IT’s IMPOSSIBLE! Do the math. Cylinder pressure=HP! Cooler air charge, more efficient air flow, NOS, Turbo’s, and SC’s=cylinder pressure! That how they make POWER! The proper tuning and management of these power adders is the only solution to getting lots of HP and reasonable reliability with a stock lower end. Reliability will ALWAYS be compromised by higher stress forces. A SC’d anything is not as reliable as the plain vanilla version of itself. Plastic hips and replacement knees included.
Why are you waiting?
You have three choices:
1) ATI = most HP but a little tricky to figure out and manage. Risky for the disinclined.
2) Anything Else = safer, slower, and not as dangerous if you have a weak stomach.
3) Sit on your money forever and let the rest of us smoke you’re a$$ at every stoplight!
The one thing I cant figure out is the Vortech kit clearly puts out less ponies but has a claimed 8psi boost. Is the intercooler that inefficient? What gives? Anyone?
1) The ATI/Procharger makes more HP & Tq than any other SC kit available for the 350Z if properly tuned and your car does not have the timing problem that 10% of the cars have. (mine being one of them)
2) ATI launched the sale of the Procharger kit too soon without enough data or enough cars/installs tested.
3) ATI did not supply everything needed to make the kit complete. (timing management)
4) Less than 10% of us with the ATI kit have the detonation problem. (unfortunately I am in that 10%)
5) The folks that have done the proper tuning and have applied the additional gadgets to make up for ATI’s “lack of a complete kit” are making $hitloads of reliable horsepower, well, at least this week.
6) There are several solutions for the detonation problem.
--a) E-Manage ($650 not installed)
--b) J&S Safeguard ($500 not installed)
--c) Retune the factory ECU (price varies $500 to $1500)
--c) Stay under 6kRPM (free!) (does not get my vote)
--d) Buy a lower boost kit and live with it (Greddy, Stillen, ect.)
....among others. (unsatisfying)
Best I can tell the only way you’ll get engine damage is cylinder pressure too high or detonation/ping/pre-ignition. ( I did not include the ridiculous here to save time; no oil in motor, ect.) The detonation/ping/pre-ignition is a fixable issue at this point. The high cylinder pressure issue should not be an issue unless there are other power adders installed. I have not heard from anyone yet on how much is too much for the VQ35 but some of the Z’s in the magazines are pushing way beyond just an ATI kit with the stock lower end and having no problems so far (JIC car, AXIS car). What are they doing different than the guys who windowed their blocks? Could it be that if your gonna add other mods to your Z you should really seek the help of someone VERY, VERY qualified? At the point where someone exceeds the manufacturers suggested maximums they really should have better than average acumen for what they are getting involved in.
Don’t get me wrong here, I am pretty pi$$ed that ATI sold me an incomplete SC solution for $5k-plus and did not mention that there was a 10% chance that I would need to spend another $600-$1200 to make the SC work properly on my car. I called and asked about this one day last week. ATI is aware of the problem but offered no compensation of any kind. They did not offer to refund or partial rebate for “serving me a $hit sandwich for dinner”, nothing. Nor did they really know how to solve the problem (so they claimed). I was told that they have not had this problem with any of the many 350's they tested the kit on before going to market but they had heard about this issue with approximately 10% of the kits sold. How many is MANY? How many Z's did they test the kit on?
What I don’t understand is why anyone, at this point, would be waiting for something different to come to market that makes the same HP as the ATI kit but does not have the risk of the ATI kit. If it makes the same power as the ATI kit it will have the risks involved. IT’s IMPOSSIBLE! Do the math. Cylinder pressure=HP! Cooler air charge, more efficient air flow, NOS, Turbo’s, and SC’s=cylinder pressure! That how they make POWER! The proper tuning and management of these power adders is the only solution to getting lots of HP and reasonable reliability with a stock lower end. Reliability will ALWAYS be compromised by higher stress forces. A SC’d anything is not as reliable as the plain vanilla version of itself. Plastic hips and replacement knees included.
Why are you waiting?
You have three choices:
1) ATI = most HP but a little tricky to figure out and manage. Risky for the disinclined.
2) Anything Else = safer, slower, and not as dangerous if you have a weak stomach.
3) Sit on your money forever and let the rest of us smoke you’re a$$ at every stoplight!
The one thing I cant figure out is the Vortech kit clearly puts out less ponies but has a claimed 8psi boost. Is the intercooler that inefficient? What gives? Anyone?
Re: Waiting w/ $$'s in hand to SC yer 350z?
Originally posted by swinke
The one thing I cant figure out is the Vortech kit clearly puts out less ponies but has a claimed 8psi boost. Is the intercooler that inefficient? What gives? Anyone?
The one thing I cant figure out is the Vortech kit clearly puts out less ponies but has a claimed 8psi boost. Is the intercooler that inefficient? What gives? Anyone?
--Steve
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas
The RWHP numbers I have seen just browsing have been slightly lower on the Vortech than the ATI. I called Vortech about the timing device they are using with there kit and explained my situation. I had originally called to buy the device, they want $900 plus for it. While I had the Vortech tech on the phone I asked him that very question; "Why does your advertised HP come out lower than the dyno HP I have seen on the ATI kit if you have one more pound of boost than the ATI kit?" He could not answer the question. Call and ask them, I'd like to know.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 531
Likes: 1
From: ---
It seems that zimbo is the only one on the forum with the Vortech, and that is not on a z so you can't really compare to another setup on the z.
As far as the advertised numbers, there's a thread that covered all that. In a nutshell, Vortech uses a dyno that reads lower numbers than other widely used dynos such as Dynojet. They have estimated the power output, and were conservative in their estimate so as not to risk much dissappointment when customers dyno their cars.
As far as the advertised numbers, there's a thread that covered all that. In a nutshell, Vortech uses a dyno that reads lower numbers than other widely used dynos such as Dynojet. They have estimated the power output, and were conservative in their estimate so as not to risk much dissappointment when customers dyno their cars.
Originally posted by swinke
I called Vortech about the timing device they are using with there kit and explained my situation. I had originally called to buy the device, they want $900 plus for it.
I called Vortech about the timing device they are using with there kit and explained my situation. I had originally called to buy the device, they want $900 plus for it.
--Steve
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,962
Likes: 0
Re: Waiting w/ $$'s in hand to SC yer 350z?
Originally posted by swinke
I was told that they have not had this problem with any of the many 350's they tested the kit on before going to market but they had heard about this issue with approximately 10% of the kits sold.
I was told that they have not had this problem with any of the many 350's they tested the kit on before going to market but they had heard about this issue with approximately 10% of the kits sold.
........well at least they're not in the "denial" stage anymore
Trending Topics
My thoughts on the ATI kit would be to buy the ghetto kit (ie no fuel pump & DFMU).
Then buy:
1.) Reliable and high flowing fuel pump
2.) PE 380cc injectors or RC 440's
3.) Get all the breathing parts put on the car before the kit (ie headers, cams, no cats, hi flow cats, exhaust, plenum)
4.) Take that SOB to TS and have the ecu flashed and flashed for damn conservation. IE 11.5 all the way!
5.) Wideband o2 w/ a/f guage is going to be a must
*6.) _tuned_ 9 psi pulley if you got big ballz to take one for the team and see if the car's rods can handle it. Plus if I went with this, I would NOT want to bump the rev limiter to 7100, car would probably be seeing around 11+psi.
FI is dangerous no matter what, but a solution is much better than just being too scared to tackle the problem. I'm torn between ATI & DW. I love ATI's power, and I know what needs to be done to make it reliable. SC's are more of an option for me because of long term reliability. In terms of overal parts, there's a lot less to go wrong, which equates to less dollars, especially if your putting on around 31,000 miles in 7 months. With that much mileage, I need something that's going to be reliable power, and that's going to be my own personal long term test lol.
Then buy:
1.) Reliable and high flowing fuel pump
2.) PE 380cc injectors or RC 440's
3.) Get all the breathing parts put on the car before the kit (ie headers, cams, no cats, hi flow cats, exhaust, plenum)
4.) Take that SOB to TS and have the ecu flashed and flashed for damn conservation. IE 11.5 all the way!
5.) Wideband o2 w/ a/f guage is going to be a must
*6.) _tuned_ 9 psi pulley if you got big ballz to take one for the team and see if the car's rods can handle it. Plus if I went with this, I would NOT want to bump the rev limiter to 7100, car would probably be seeing around 11+psi.
FI is dangerous no matter what, but a solution is much better than just being too scared to tackle the problem. I'm torn between ATI & DW. I love ATI's power, and I know what needs to be done to make it reliable. SC's are more of an option for me because of long term reliability. In terms of overal parts, there's a lot less to go wrong, which equates to less dollars, especially if your putting on around 31,000 miles in 7 months. With that much mileage, I need something that's going to be reliable power, and that's going to be my own personal long term test lol.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,756
Likes: 0
From: Houston
Originally posted by Juztin
My thoughts on the ATI kit would be to buy the ghetto kit (ie no fuel pump & DFMU).
Then buy:
1.) Reliable and high flowing fuel pump
2.) PE 380cc injectors or RC 440's
3.) Get all the breathing parts put on the car before the kit (ie headers, cams, no cats, hi flow cats, exhaust, plenum)
4.) Take that SOB to TS and have the ecu flashed and flashed for damn conservation. IE 11.5 all the way!
5.) Wideband o2 w/ a/f guage is going to be a must
*6.) _tuned_ 9 psi pulley if you got big ballz to take one for the team and see if the car's rods can handle it. Plus if I went with this, I would NOT want to bump the rev limiter to 7100, car would probably be seeing around 11+psi.
FI is dangerous no matter what, but a solution is much better than just being too scared to tackle the problem. I'm torn between ATI & DW. I love ATI's power, and I know what needs to be done to make it reliable. SC's are more of an option for me because of long term reliability. In terms of overal parts, there's a lot less to go wrong, which equates to less dollars, especially if your putting on around 31,000 miles in 7 months. With that much mileage, I need something that's going to be reliable power, and that's going to be my own personal long term test lol.
My thoughts on the ATI kit would be to buy the ghetto kit (ie no fuel pump & DFMU).
Then buy:
1.) Reliable and high flowing fuel pump
2.) PE 380cc injectors or RC 440's
3.) Get all the breathing parts put on the car before the kit (ie headers, cams, no cats, hi flow cats, exhaust, plenum)
4.) Take that SOB to TS and have the ecu flashed and flashed for damn conservation. IE 11.5 all the way!
5.) Wideband o2 w/ a/f guage is going to be a must
*6.) _tuned_ 9 psi pulley if you got big ballz to take one for the team and see if the car's rods can handle it. Plus if I went with this, I would NOT want to bump the rev limiter to 7100, car would probably be seeing around 11+psi.
FI is dangerous no matter what, but a solution is much better than just being too scared to tackle the problem. I'm torn between ATI & DW. I love ATI's power, and I know what needs to be done to make it reliable. SC's are more of an option for me because of long term reliability. In terms of overal parts, there's a lot less to go wrong, which equates to less dollars, especially if your putting on around 31,000 miles in 7 months. With that much mileage, I need something that's going to be reliable power, and that's going to be my own personal long term test lol.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas
can you say KABOOM!
I guess we will see shortly how much abuse the block and crank can take! You nuts from ATL got my vote! When/if it pops please make sure the data logger is running. I think you could sell enough copies of the log to replace whatever you break!
Good Luck!
Break a rod!
Good Luck!
Break a rod!
Oh yeah! Definately need the J&S. With a statically set ECU, I would definately NEED that sucker to be in the car, cause here in colorado you can go from 5000ft - 15000ft (but that would only make the car run rich, no big deal), but the temperature is what is tricky. It can range from -20 to 50 degrees. As we all know, taht can cause some lean issues! :-O I would definately need the timing to be retarded in those situations. I would ideally like a more "tuneable" system, such as say Greddy's e-manage w/ the timing retard module, but I'll keep an eye on that, as that may be a possible solution to the flashed ECU.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas
Originally posted by Juztin
Oh yeah! Definately need the J&S. With a statically set ECU, I would definately NEED that sucker to be in the car, cause here in colorado you can go from 5000ft - 15000ft (but that would only make the car run rich, no big deal), but the temperature is what is tricky. It can range from -20 to 50 degrees. As we all know, taht can cause some lean issues! :-O I would definately need the timing to be retarded in those situations. I would ideally like a more "tuneable" system, such as say Greddy's e-manage w/ the timing retard module, but I'll keep an eye on that, as that may be a possible solution to the flashed ECU.
Oh yeah! Definately need the J&S. With a statically set ECU, I would definately NEED that sucker to be in the car, cause here in colorado you can go from 5000ft - 15000ft (but that would only make the car run rich, no big deal), but the temperature is what is tricky. It can range from -20 to 50 degrees. As we all know, taht can cause some lean issues! :-O I would definately need the timing to be retarded in those situations. I would ideally like a more "tuneable" system, such as say Greddy's e-manage w/ the timing retard module, but I'll keep an eye on that, as that may be a possible solution to the flashed ECU.
Are you running the stock injectors? No I didnt read your entire post as it qualified for my > 4 lines = too much concentrating rule lol. Awsome to hear though! How is the e-manage doing for you with keeping the a/f ratio at the level you want? what kinda a/f you running right now? I think as an overkill, you could conceiably run the e-manage, j&S, and ecu reflash with just timing and mph bump for 3 levels of insurance. Or three reasons one is an idiot if the engine still got destroyed because of det. I'm willing to take three levels of insurance as opposed to anything else, I 'd rather have the compressor fall apart due to milage, rather than melt a piston.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
Don't discount the Stillen Sc running at 7pounds with the intercooler. You have to take all facts into consideration. Torque is at 300 to the wheels at 2500rpm throughout the rpm range. Around 6200rpm is when ATI hp goes about 15 - 20 more in horsepower.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,686
Likes: 0
From: NOR - CAL
Yes, everyone get the ATI tuned by spring so I have some competition. If you want a relaible daily driver though stay N/A not 400rwhp F/I.
Anyways everyone get your orders placed and kits installed so ATI sales can go back up and they can do more research and I can smoke ya'll!
It's all been explained every angle 10 times a day in 4 threads a day. Fix the timing and increase the fuel and watch the warning signs via guages. Now stop talking about and place your orders already so we can compare track slips not timing box ideas
See you on the track!
Anyways everyone get your orders placed and kits installed so ATI sales can go back up and they can do more research and I can smoke ya'll!
It's all been explained every angle 10 times a day in 4 threads a day. Fix the timing and increase the fuel and watch the warning signs via guages. Now stop talking about and place your orders already so we can compare track slips not timing box ideas
See you on the track!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
etkms
Engine & Drivetrain
29
Jun 19, 2022 06:30 PM