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Some of what grey stated is what i am wondering. If you are losing voltage and richen the maps, it will just run worse. Alternator should not take much torque to spin over so don't feel this to be an issue unless the alternator is going bad. With all the wiring you have done, would consider checking all connections especially grounds.
What i would do is look at your injector delay and spark dwell when the fans kick on. That should show you where your battery voltage is actually dropping to. If it drops below 14V then you more than likely have a charging issue and the car can't quite compensate the fuel/spark correctly.
Got the car out for about a 15mile cruise and the car ran well. I activated open loop boost control and put some very conservative numbers for the duty cycles - resulted in about 4psi of boost.
Appreciate the insight and responses gents - Grey brings up some very good points. I've got data logs and I can check the aforementioned point and if for some reason I didn't capture that data I can go back and replicate the problem. I'll update once I've got a free minute!
Originally Posted by GreyZ
How will adding fuel to the map when the fan switches on help? The engine is not dying from leaning out but rather it cannot make enough torque at idle to spin the alternator with the increased load. The alternative that sounds more likely is that there is a wiring issue, control issue in link, too high of current draw, or possibly a poor fuel injector mapping/latency tables that are no longer accurate when the voltage drops and causing a lean or rich condition.
Can you see the throttle body open when the fan kicks on to attempt to maintain the target idle rpm? Can you log the change in ms open time of the injectors and see the change as the voltage drop occurs with the fan? Are the fans pulling the right amperage on startup? Are your battery terminals tight? These are just some thoughts that come up.
Yea, you're right adding fuel is the wrong move. The engine is going rich when it dies and I have a lot of black smoke when it dies.
I'm not sure how to justify if it is or is not making enough torque at idle. I don't want to completely dismiss this but the only think running off the crank is the alternator, no AC, no PS although I am overdriving the alternator.
Wiring issue - I don't know / anything is possible as I have modified many of the OEM wire harnesses - including the harness that runs the the fans.
Control issue in the link - anything is possible(and in the end, this was the issue)
Too high of a current draw - not likely as I am running a single 10" spal fan
Injector latency vs. voltage issue - could be? but inconsistent when ECU temps are under the fan threshold
I pulled up the TP in the data logs - looks like it's functioning correctly
injector times appear correct
battery terminals are tight
Originally Posted by rustyschopshop
Some of what grey stated is what i am wondering. If you are losing voltage and richen the maps, it will just run worse. Alternator should not take much torque to spin over so don't feel this to be an issue unless the alternator is going bad. With all the wiring you have done, would consider checking all connections especially grounds.
I don't know that I was losing voltage other than the car running at 14.4volts and dropping down to 12+volts when it died.
Yea, alt wont take much to spin and I'm overdriving it a bit. This hasn't been an issue before
Originally Posted by Conway_160
What i would do is look at your injector delay and spark dwell when the fans kick on. That should show you where your battery voltage is actually dropping to. If it drops below 14V then you more than likely have a charging issue and the car can't quite compensate the fuel/spark correctly.
I wasn't dropping below 14volts until the car died and the latencies were good.
The yellow vertical line is where the engine dies
solution as Grey mentioned was in the link. And I don't know why I didn't see this. I was misinterpreting the fan step function … this function is a percentage of engine speed added to the idle(not to fuel)T Meaning a 10% step would add 125rpms (assuming idle is set to 1250) and the car would idle at 1375 while the fans were on.
the solution was right in front of my face (and I'm embarrassed that I didn't see this) but I was adding 2ms of fuel in my Idle Gain Trim table any time the fan is active. Which makes sense why my AFRs were going rich when the car died-out. I'm not 100% sure why the engine would die when it dropped down to 11:1 AFR at idle but I guess that's enough to drown-out the engine. I zero'd this out and the car idles fine and runs fine when the fans kick on and while they run. I didn't add any RPM gain nor any fuel gain and it idles as if the fan were off.
Far right side, half way down 'Idle Load Trim' table, Eng Fan trim = 2ms
It's been a slow week - but have had time to clean a few things up and really wrap up the black parts car...sold more parts off of it and was able to crack a deal with a guy down in Colorado Springs with the carbon fiber(fiberglass) doors. Essentially gave him cash (which I gathered from selling items off the black z), two black doors (not from my parts car), hauled everything down and did the swap (with his help).
If it's something I really like about the car community, it's the chance to meet other like minded individuals. I've been going back and forth with this guy and some good conversations and I was happy to meet him in-person and get to hang out while 'wenching' on a Z. Overall a great way to spend a friday afternoon/evening.
Overall I'm pleased but I'm not satisfied...Ive been spoiled by the dry CF hatch ... and these doors are pretty kick ***, they'll shave 50lbs off the car (which I wont daily drive w/the CFs) but it'll be pretty sweet for track events. I was told that they are seibons but I dont see the seibons tags...so I am not sure - but I'm not gonna let that stop me.
They are in decent condition with the clear in pretty good shape but some damage on the drivers side bottom rear corner. It's not gonna ruin my weekend bc I will likely wrap them at some point in time.
Also fab'd up a quick laptop stand. I had one before that mounted to the bolt that secures the seat but I wasnt entirely happy with how it worked... so I scraped it (awhile back) and told myself I'd fab another one at some point in time. This new one bolts to the four bolts holding the shifter boot - feels pretty secure and I'm happy how it turned out.
got the car (literally) out of the garage and let it idle up to ~200degrees and it did great ... a little bouncy idle but didnt die and when the engine fan kicked on I could hear the car struggle for 2seconds, catch itself and resume a normal idle. So I'm hoping the idle issue is resolved. I do want to get into the fuel decel cutout and adjust it as the car 'wants' to die after a pull if you take it out of gear ... probably need a little fuel to catch it as the rpms drop.
Also, I have a oil leak coming from my turbo return/scavenge line and it needs cleaned up, rerouted or I need to add a sump and pump setup.
Finally, gonna try to get underneath the red Z and swap out suspension components and get it back on the road to recovery.
It is wildly handy to make changes, monitor the car, data log, check parameters, etc. With the standalone, I can upload any changes in real time and while driving.
Glad it was something easy (but elusive) for the idle issues. That is so much easier than actual electrical gremlins overloading the alternator. If I remember correctly I idle around 2ms on my 750cc injectors. So if you were adding 2ms on your injectors it was probably more than doubling your idle fuel. AFR sensors get a bit error prone at the ends of their range, it could have just been at that edge or if it was so rich that the fuel was still liquid in the exhaust it will not pick that up.
Those doors are also sweet. Do you ever plan to go full cage? By the looks of those doors if you had a cage you could get them to half their weight if you only needed the skin.
Glad it was something easy (but elusive) for the idle issues. That is so much easier than actual electrical gremlins overloading the alternator. If I remember correctly I idle around 2ms on my 750cc injectors. So if you were adding 2ms on your injectors it was probably more than doubling your idle fuel. AFR sensors get a bit error prone at the ends of their range, it could have just been at that edge or if it was so rich that the fuel was still liquid in the exhaust it will not pick that up.
Those doors are also sweet. Do you ever plan to go full cage? By the looks of those doors if you had a cage you could get them to half their weight if you only needed the skin.
Right! Me too … I hate chasing those 'it could be...' issues. Yea, It was set to 2ms for my 1000cc injectors. Which I don't completely understand because I never changed that - I'm not sure but the car is running well. The O2 sensors are new as of 6months ago and I have maybe 300 miles on them.
I will likely go full cage at some point - it'll be on of those big purchases you make once a year. I wouldn't do it myself, there's a good shop west of Denver that sells a pre-fab'd cage and would do the install too.
I did get the car out over the weekend and the idle did fine. I need more adjustment on the decal enrichment / overrun fuel cut - I am learning a little more and more with the link and I think I have found where I need to make the adjustments. The car wont die on shifts but it'll drop to ~500rpm before it catches itself. I did one round of datalogging for fuel to further dial in my table. Also adding values to the boost control solenoid to get a feel for what duty cycles are needed.
Got the black Z out of the garage along with all the misc parts hanging around and cleaned/organized the garage and got the red z in and up in the air. Got under the red car and replaced toe and camber links and ended up replacing the spring bucket too. Upon further inspection the boot of the axle came off but I think it's fine to reclip the boot retainer and reinstall into the car. Did all that and got the curtain airbag replaced and the seat airbag replaced (although I may need to replace the seat). I need to replace the seat belt and I think (fingers crosses) those should be all the repairs needed.
Gotta get going on a rear-mount turbo kit for a guy in New Jersey (I believe)...We need to order parts still but I have IC charge pipe I can start with!
11pm / 4th beer update...
replaced the passenger side seatbelt and the control module (right behind the shifter) and upon 7seconds after startup the airbag light is off...
the downside, is, I damn-near took off every g-d piece of interior plastic to get to the seat belt...
so I have this oil leak from the turbo...I am dripping about 3 to 4 ounces of oil everytime I take the car out ... I now notice this oil leak on the previously installed splitter / under-engine shield maybe a month ago. I have a 40psi restrictor on the feed line, so the return line sees 5psi to 40psi ... Also, I have about 1" to 2" drop from the turbo to the drain (plus or minus) so, yes, it drains down a 2" over approximately 24" of line but by no means is it a optimal slope.
So I pop the car up on blocks, remove the splitter/shield and start at the turbo. There is no oil leakage at the -4 oil feedline ... no residue/burn-off. The -12 flange attached to the turbo has two hex-bolts and they are plenty tight, the -12 fitting is plenty snug. I move to the fitting attached to the oil pan and surer than **** the return line, attached to the block, is finger tight ... wtf?!?!?! This oil leak started just a few weeks back so I wonder if this has just wiggled loose. I dont know...
Moving forward ... I'm gonna rebuild this line with rubber hose and push-style fittings to ensure this was indeed the issue. If this fixes the problem I will order new hose and change up fittings (as advised by a knowledgable buddy).
I'm highly considering a 'greddy' style expanded oil pan - I'd love to drop $320 on a authentic greddy (and if I have the cash, I will) but I can get a generic for $120 to $170. From there I can drop the scavenge line to this pan and it'll clean things up.
The red nissan ...
I got the suspension replaced. I put on new toe and camber arms on and it needed a new springs bucket. I believe everything else is good. I replaced the two blown airbags and the airbag control module and it turned the airbag off. I dropped a new camshaft position sensor in the passenger side and it cured the P0340 CEL. I also put a fresh jug of oil and a new filter on the car.
So I took the car out this weekend and it ran well. I'll definitely need an alignment but, damn, it was fun to drive an NA VQDE. I took a few minutes to knockout some doughnuts and let the VQ sing... it was fun - put a smile on my face.
Over the next few weeks I'll drop fresh plugs, flush power steering, flush coolant, and bleed brakes ...
...
ummmmmm...theres a mustang dyno available across town on craigslist ... They want a fair price for it but who knows if it works, its condition, if it needs software, etc ... so I may sell this red car and go make an offer on this little dyno ... we'll see...
the other red car ...
my old man brought his car over for a little bit of work - we had to reposition his fuel tank, reinstall a rebuild fuel level sensor (sending unit) and gauge, a little bit of body work, and routine maintenance. Some good father-son time for sure.
Glad you found that oil leak before anything bad happened. Everything is looking great man.
Father son time is awesome. Been trying to do much more of that with my boys, although the youngest at the moment is at that age he doesn't want to. He'll come around
Glad you found that oil leak before anything bad happened. Everything is looking great man.
Father son time is awesome. Been trying to do much more of that with my boys, although the youngest at the moment is at that age he doesn't want to. He'll come around
For sure! All I could think was the hose fitting was tight on both turbo/block fittings and that the hose was a hard pull from coming loose.
It's good, fathers wont be around forever so soak up the time when they are.
I picked up a 24" stick of rubber hose and put two new push-lock fittings and some wire-tie on it. (not that worried - it doesn't see pressure) and reinstalled. It was a botch reinstalling as the hose hits the front subframe and doesn't let the two fittings screw into each other flat. I finally got it and locked it down. I took a few cans of brake cleaner to engine/turbo/lines to clean them up and check for new leaks.
I put two sheets of fresh paper down to verify nothing was leaking. I started the car and let it run for 30 seconds with some easy throttle blips and no oil was visibly pissing out.
Cut to the next day, I worked with my old man to do a few things on his car and we wrapped up around 10pm. I went to start the car to put some idle time on it and the car would crank but not start...I didn't have the mental capacity to trouble shoot the car so I just put the battery tender back on it and went in for the night.
Next day, went to try it again, cranked but didn't start. Made my mental checklist and obviously it cranks, but the fuel pump is not priming on key-on. I pull the two fuses and theyre fine, I unplug and replug in the relay and it primed - fixed...nothing can be easy!
I started the car and ran it for a few minutes, and no oil leaks. Need to wrap up my dads car and get it out of the garage and then I can take the white car out.
I do have a good amount of confidence with the car right now and I'm looking forward to getting it out and pushing boost a little harder. I'd like to get the boost control settings figured out and then if everything goes well bring in water/methanol.
I did test the original hose used (that was leaking) and it's solid. I put 120psi from my air compressor on it and submerged it in water and the only leaks were coming from my connecting fittings.
I'm still contemplating the expanded oil pan and Mazworks has a pretty neat oil baffle insert that I think I'm going to copy and fabricate for my own engine. The baffles are a plus but I eliminated my OEM windage tray (as I am running the dynosy girdle) and I would like to put something in to eliminate the windage oil froth potential. To be continued...
did handful of engine idle tests and no sign of oil so I'm gonna button things back up...
I fab'd up the flatfloor but didnt have any holes to put a jack through - so I installed the two center pieces, marked off the OEM rails and put a 4" x 2" hole, two on each side. I dont really want to drive the car with the flatfloor installed but I may take it out a few times.
It was back on the greddy twin build, but I was running water methanol pre-turbo. I want to do this on my current build but the air filter is too close to the OEM frame rail to do this. Had a few ideas in the back of my head to core-out 2" or so of the frame rail to install a nozzle but didnt think it was a wise move. I was conceptualizing the filter and I thought 'why not put the nozzle inside the filter? So I welded up a little cup that'll be inserted in the back of the filter. Everything went as planned but I am getting a drip-leak out of the nozzle (they're not supposed to leak like this) and thats where I gave up!
ahhhhh hell...
You leave me no choice...
8pm update:
What an afternoon...got home after small biz stuff and figured I had an hour or so of daylight and 15-20min of dusk and I've been wanting to get the car out pretty bad. Infact, the car was already outside in the driveway (off the blocks from the hose swap) as I wanted to get it out earlier but ran out of time.
As mentioned before, Im developing a healthy amount of confidence with the car and wanted to push the car this afternoon. Over about a 22minute drive I got 12 hard pulls pushing 5 to 14psi at 100% throttle and shifting around 4500rpms. Everything went well and the car pulled hard. I am getting some weird smoke (I think it's oil) on decel after hard acceleration...I hope/doubt its coolant as my pressures max out around 22psi and I dont have white smoke any other time.
the waste gates/BOV are release nicely ... I'll try to get some go-pro of the car as they sound pretty good.
Had a chance to grab a few pics of the sunset...
12midnight update ... got the car up in the air and return line off the car ... (albeit no splashshield / undertray) I love the fact that I can get to the turbo within minutes ... the greddy kit would have been days to reseal a connection ...
I forgot that I trimmed this flange - probably why it's leaking ... it was too close to the CHRA so I had to shave some material. If this doesnt work I'll probably buy another one and trim less.
cleaned everything and applied high-temp gasket maker ...we'll see how well this holds ... spec says 700degree temp rating. Can't torque this down for another hour...
Strangely enough I got the car out each of the last three days...I can't remember the last time I had the car out so much...
Each time I put about 25 or 30miles and didnt put more than 7psi of boost on the car and really just getting datalogs for fuel table adjustments while running a few errands...
The car did well with the exception of a bad no-start / dead battery. And it turned out to be a non-priming fuel pump...I believe it was the relay acting up...swapped it out and it fired-up...I really gotta burn it in my brain to listen for the fuel pump on key-on.
next major task will be to get the front bumper mounted and attached to the splitter/undertray. Shouldnt be too difficult as I can use the two mounting bolts under the fender and attaching the base to the splitter will be easy but I will need to fabricate some sort of support right above the radiator where the 6 OEM push-lock clips attach - time to get creative!
Got the car out for a 25mile drive to the store and back this early evening...I typically run the car gingerly there and then get a little more aggressive on the way home. Car did well on the way there and car ran hotter than it usually does and got up to 216degrees before I shut it down in the driveway. Slightly concerning. I checked the data logs and my coolant pressure didnt exceed 21psi. My coolant overflow tank was a little fuller at those 216 degree temps and coolant fan was going. It's since emptied back into the car (as of 5hours later). I did burp-out a small amount of air in the line while the engine was still hot - but couldnt have been more than 3 to 5 cc worth...
On the way back to the house I got a few good pulls in pushing the car up to 4500 rpm and 14psi of boost - nothing out of the ordinary so I'll keep on pushing it!
I rolled some video and I'll see about finding the pulls ... I'm not sure if the camera was rolling for the good pulls ...
had an impromptu run of the car this afternoon - worked / assisted a buddy (with the blue rear-mount turbo kit) doing a test-pipe removal / weld some extra o2 sensor bungs in / reinstall, also did a clone-job of the MRev cut and the removal of the 6 'towers' inside the OEM upper plenum lid.
He did all the hard work ... I did the cutting and welding and he busted his *** under the car ... I feel bad for him ... but we fixed an exhaust leak and likely a vacuum leak.
Things were wrapped up around 7pm and we were both pretty hungry so we got both cars out and grab food.
We did some leap-frogging and my buddy grabbed this video -
I pushed the car a little harder today (up to 6k rpm and 14psi) ... everything ran great and continued to build confidence with the car.
I think I mentioned that my boost control wasnt working ... turns out it was, I was basing that off a digital gauge setup in the Link and I selected the wrong data input ... I selected 'boost target' ...where I was really looking for 'waste gate duty cycle' ... so where I setup open loop boost control and was expecting to see the values I programed into my table, the Link was giving me boost target values which are all zeros ...
I knew something was up as my boost gauge was sorta reading choppy so I went into the table and revamped the axis that carries boost levels into 2psi increments where before they were 3psi ... probably will need to go back at some point but trying to stay under 14psi I think this will help provide resolution.
Had the car out at Bandimere this evening ... Saturday night roll racing, I'm sure it's bc, as colorado loosens covid restrictions, Bandimere opened-up for test & tune style roll racing - I bet they didnt have any big-time weekend event.
Figured this would be a great time to get the carbon fiber doors on the car and give myself a realistic weight update and they have a nice scale there.
with about 1/2 a tank of gas, bigger rear wheels, and only essentials (computer, fire extinguisher, single driver's seat, full tank of water/methanol, etc) the car came in at 2815lbs ... I can get another 10lbs off by putting the false headlights and tail lights. Something I should put on the radar is a cf seat / harness bar setup.
I had 1/2 tank of fuel and I bought another 5gallons of 104oct as insurance
Roll racing is interesting ... I thought for sure that I'd be faster than traditional drag, ET times are lower but speeds were lower too ... I got two passes in ... a handful of track delays and I guess someone messed up their car and had to be taken off in an ambulance (or something?)...
I was about to get my 3rd and final pass in for the night and surer-than-**** I had issues with my fuel pump and I wasnt building fuel pressure at key-on ...
1. I was getting 12v from the batter
2. my ground was good
3. my trigger was getting 12volts at key on and then dropped down to zero volts (like you'd expect)
4. I think my pump wire is fine
You could hear the relay click at key on...
I am considering either A. wiring the pump directly to the battery and using a switch to control or having a switch available to power directly. Any insight on this would be welcome ... could I wire the pump directly to the battery w/a adaquately sized flip switch? if I'm powering the pump from the battery now via a relay would it be the same power/volts/amps through a switched connection?
I dont know if it's coincidence but my positive terminal was a little loose ... I maybe put 1/2 a turn, maybe 3/4 of a turn tighter on the termial nut and the pump worked like it's supposed to. I hate these issues ... but I'm happy that I was able to drive the car home...
other than this sour aftertaste of a no-launch 3rd pass the car ran well ... I pushed the car a little harder well past 5k rpms and I zero'd out all my boost control(nothing helping the WGs stay shut) and on my first run was able to hit 4psi in 2nd gear, 8psi in 3rd gear, 12psi in 4th gear, and 13psi in 5th gear. Finished my 1st run 99.61mph at 12.24seconds ...
second run was similar but (according to my data log) I held onto 4th gear through the end of the race and was able to hit 6200rpm. In 2nd gear I hit 5psi, 3rd gear hit 11psi, and 4th gear hit 13psi. I did 99.71mph and 12.36 seconds ...
was hoping to get more runs in and play with the boost control settings but it was packed and my damn fuel pump!
Made it home A-ok - cruised it nice and easy...
Overall a good afternoon and evening...cant wait to do it again...
Didn’t go pro my first run but got the second run - audio is decent and other than that just a dood driving a slow car!
That is awesome that you was able to make it out, but sucks the third run took a dookie on ya.
Im gonna hard wire the pump to a switch as an override.
I also ordered another pump just incase … if I have it on-hand, I wont need it...
Gonna try to get back out to the track next week or the week after to continue to play with my boost control and see if I can't get it dialed in and have some fun with the car!
Other than that, just been crazy busy with work...
04-26-2020, 03:40 PM
