Need as much advice on twin-charging
In 50,000 miles I've never had a Belt Brake.
1. What is your Power Level Now? Boost? RPM..... ECT?
2. What are your Goals?
1. What is your Power Level Now? Boost? RPM..... ECT?
2. What are your Goals?
So, me and my tuner kept bouncing back ideas of improving my current Ti setup to not have these strange belt issues. Also my wife gave me the thumbs up since I sold the Vette, so it's a matter of time for the world to get it's crap together again.
(Notes in parenthesis is for added context)
*The sole purpose of this build is to be one of the very few convertible Drag Zs. It's what I imagined from the start, and I plan on completing it no matter how much money I waste from it. Being a pioneer can be fun and rewarding!
(For an update or anyone curious on what steps I've done trying to fix it)
- Replaced belt with fleetrunner
- Installed a Timrod radius rod on bracket
- Replaced tensioner
- Added small idler near blower pulley
- Bought pulley laser alignment tool. All pulleys are aligned perfect
- Checked and Tested all other accessory pulleys for any seizing or damage (All fine)
- Gone through 5x belts testing various tensions (all unsuccessful, either too loose to get any good boost or too tight and belt snaps/breaks ribs from sudden decel)
- Rerouted belt, helped a little, but still snapping
Now, I pretty much gave up the idea on building the Ti as much as possible because it's just too much time trying to think of various ways to fix the issue of belt slip/snaps.
One thing I haven't seen much of at all, is any twin-charged Zs.
I thought about playing with compound boosting, but there's not a lot of info about it. (Most twin-charged documentation is based on OEM cars and clutched superchargers, not a lot of info based on higher horsepower applications coupled with a clutch-less centrifugal supercharger)
Before you jump the comments, I'm aware of a lot of reasons why people don't do this. (Mostly from the very inefficient power and piping. But power is power, I'm chasing numbers here)
Reason I mention piping, is that I planned on adding a rear mount setup for the blower to compliment. I'm not really concerned on the piping, as I planned on routing it through the interior of the car and adding an icebox to the convertible top compartment. (I want to make up for lack of efficiency as much as possible with cooling)
Now on to all the technical questions that are throwing me off at the moment.
1. Compound boosting, exactly what is the formula for calculating boost? Torquecars.com made a segment about how they generalize 10 psi + 10 psi = ~30 psi compounded boost. By that reasoning, If a supercharger (s) pushed 20 psi, and a turbocharger (t) was pushing just 10 psi.
Would the equation look like (s x 1.5) + (t x 1.5) = Total boost? Or is it more complicated where the first forced induction modification compounds higher than the latter modification? Is the boost affected by the CFM/Efficiency of the turbo size/trim/etc? But if there isn't any variance, could it really put out 45 psi that easily by that logic?
2. Since turbo lag is pretty much non-existent, especially using a Ti trim, would going twins vs single really matter? Is the only variance I would face is just costs?
3. With compound boosting I would try to avoid 30+ psi for now but I'm also confused about would a boost controller simply fix that issue with external wastegates?
4. Running multiple BPV/BOVs. Would it be ideal to run 2x BOVs? One loaded with a supercharger spring between the supercharger and turbos, and a Turbo spec'd spring on a BOV between the turbo(s) and throttle body. At what boost threshold would 3x BOV be necessary to where two BOV's are needed between the Turbo(s) and the throttle body?
5. Can you wish me all the luck? I'm going to need it doing this....
If there's any other missing complications I missed, I'll try to explain because I've might've thought it through already or let me know so I can know what info I need.
(Notes in parenthesis is for added context)
*The sole purpose of this build is to be one of the very few convertible Drag Zs. It's what I imagined from the start, and I plan on completing it no matter how much money I waste from it. Being a pioneer can be fun and rewarding!
(For an update or anyone curious on what steps I've done trying to fix it)
- Replaced belt with fleetrunner
- Installed a Timrod radius rod on bracket
- Replaced tensioner
- Added small idler near blower pulley
- Bought pulley laser alignment tool. All pulleys are aligned perfect
- Checked and Tested all other accessory pulleys for any seizing or damage (All fine)
- Gone through 5x belts testing various tensions (all unsuccessful, either too loose to get any good boost or too tight and belt snaps/breaks ribs from sudden decel)
- Rerouted belt, helped a little, but still snapping
Now, I pretty much gave up the idea on building the Ti as much as possible because it's just too much time trying to think of various ways to fix the issue of belt slip/snaps.
One thing I haven't seen much of at all, is any twin-charged Zs.
I thought about playing with compound boosting, but there's not a lot of info about it. (Most twin-charged documentation is based on OEM cars and clutched superchargers, not a lot of info based on higher horsepower applications coupled with a clutch-less centrifugal supercharger)
Before you jump the comments, I'm aware of a lot of reasons why people don't do this. (Mostly from the very inefficient power and piping. But power is power, I'm chasing numbers here)
Reason I mention piping, is that I planned on adding a rear mount setup for the blower to compliment. I'm not really concerned on the piping, as I planned on routing it through the interior of the car and adding an icebox to the convertible top compartment. (I want to make up for lack of efficiency as much as possible with cooling)
Now on to all the technical questions that are throwing me off at the moment.
1. Compound boosting, exactly what is the formula for calculating boost? Torquecars.com made a segment about how they generalize 10 psi + 10 psi = ~30 psi compounded boost. By that reasoning, If a supercharger (s) pushed 20 psi, and a turbocharger (t) was pushing just 10 psi.
Would the equation look like (s x 1.5) + (t x 1.5) = Total boost? Or is it more complicated where the first forced induction modification compounds higher than the latter modification? Is the boost affected by the CFM/Efficiency of the turbo size/trim/etc? But if there isn't any variance, could it really put out 45 psi that easily by that logic?
2. Since turbo lag is pretty much non-existent, especially using a Ti trim, would going twins vs single really matter? Is the only variance I would face is just costs?
3. With compound boosting I would try to avoid 30+ psi for now but I'm also confused about would a boost controller simply fix that issue with external wastegates?
4. Running multiple BPV/BOVs. Would it be ideal to run 2x BOVs? One loaded with a supercharger spring between the supercharger and turbos, and a Turbo spec'd spring on a BOV between the turbo(s) and throttle body. At what boost threshold would 3x BOV be necessary to where two BOV's are needed between the Turbo(s) and the throttle body?
5. Can you wish me all the luck? I'm going to need it doing this....
If there's any other missing complications I missed, I'll try to explain because I've might've thought it through already or let me know so I can know what info I need.
Last edited by OldManZ350; May 27, 2020 at 10:35 PM.
2. I want to be able to vary different maps between 600-900whp. (900whp on E85, but car will be tuned with flexfuel)
It is really starting to sound like you want a turbo, and your sunk cost on the S/C is making you want to keep it. Have you considered changing from SC to turbo? rather than this twin charge idea?
The sunk cost theory is a son-of-a-botch … how do you 'value' emotional investment...
If it was me … and we've already determined that Otaku and I have differing points-of-view (which is perfectly fine) I'd:
A. Be happy with the boost that the supercharger can make with a slightly looser belt (but a belt that stays on the car)
B. Look into the serpentine belt mod to increase tension
C. Sell the supercharger kit all-together and go turbo
If it was me … and we've already determined that Otaku and I have differing points-of-view (which is perfectly fine) I'd:
A. Be happy with the boost that the supercharger can make with a slightly looser belt (but a belt that stays on the car)
B. Look into the serpentine belt mod to increase tension
C. Sell the supercharger kit all-together and go turbo
The sunk cost theory is a son-of-a-botch … how do you 'value' emotional investment...
If it was me … and we've already determined that Otaku and I have differing points-of-view (which is perfectly fine) I'd:
A. Be happy with the boost that the supercharger can make with a slightly looser belt (but a belt that stays on the car)
B. Look into the serpentine belt mod to increase tension
C. Sell the supercharger kit all-together and go turbo
If it was me … and we've already determined that Otaku and I have differing points-of-view (which is perfectly fine) I'd:
A. Be happy with the boost that the supercharger can make with a slightly looser belt (but a belt that stays on the car)
B. Look into the serpentine belt mod to increase tension
C. Sell the supercharger kit all-together and go turbo
As of now, if the test twin charge Z works out with the experimental controlled intake, we have a pretty good plan locked in place.
As for baby steps, the bigger pulley was just ordered today.
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