ChuckGZ

heh heh...

zimbo

iTrader: (4)

I think TT setups are the "way to go" for most folks. If I had it to do over again and had known at the time I bought my supercharger how much money I would end up spending on mods for my car, I might have taken the plunge and gone with a TT--assuming I could find one that wouldn't require negatively affecting the structural integrity of the car.

However, that said, the cost of the Vortech with installation is around $5000 and the cost of a Greddy with installation is around $9000. That's a $4000 difference, not a $1500 difference.

--Steve

alpine

ditto that.

alpine

This is what I had stated I understoof the difference would be between SC & TT.

I figured 5/6-SC 8/9-TT.

alpine

From what I understand, "todays" turbo do not experience the lag we hear/know about.

alpine

Is not something I would compromise, and someone made a suggestion about doing some customization to fix this problem with TT?

Anyone familiar with "what needs to get done" and what that might cost?

I have some connections with fabricators, if I knew what the problem was exactly, I could see what could be done about it.

thanks

little_rod

Yes, there is at least a 3K difference between the vortech and greddy systems installed.

Because this is a low boost application for SCs stock, the boost pressure low in the rpm range is going to be low. This is not lag, just the nature of an SC. Increase the psi, and you will get more boost low in the rpm range.

This is just a theory of mine, but I would be less scared to run more boost on this stock engine with an SC than a TT cause of the nature of the curves and stresses that each power curve cause for the engine. Sure you can bring up parasitic losses and such, but that small relative to the amount of stress caused by running full 10psi from 2.5K to 6.6K with a turbo instead of 10psi just at the redline. Once you buildup the engine, things change cause you can run more boost, but I am just talking about on the stock block. BTW, as an engineer, I know a little about stress.

I don't discount the advantages of a TT, the potential is dreamy. But, being a sports fanatic, I know that potential means nothing if it is never realized. Sam Bowie (that guy taken in the draft before someone named Jordan) had potential, but if you are not going to build up the engine to take advantage of this potential, then it really means nothing.

kromc5

Twin turbo no doubt!
Cool site with dyno on the superchargers.
Tons of pics of 350z TT kit and Dyno's of Superchargers

PoWeRtRiP

im not sure how many rpms the vorech/procharger can pull but many s/c kits can run in the 2bar range for boost. im sure you can run these inexcess of 15psi safely. and no it will not probably blow up in the process. superchargers are not your forte?

Speedracer

or am I mistaken. I still want to see a "kit" designed with all the proper software engineering to reliably run 8-9 psi out of the box. Alternatively, how about a kit with all the proper internals and software to run 12-14 psi. I've been spoiled by my previous experience with Audi. For about $12,000, you could have a bolt-on 22psi system ,with all the ECU reprogramming done and working reliably. You just bolt it all up and go.

Sanderman

What? You're telling me my SC has lag? Have you driven it?

If I floor the car at 2,500 rpm my head is slapped against the headrest instantly.

Turbos don't have lag? Do you just make this stuff up? Or can you just not stop selling turbos long enough to be honest about them?

Yep, and my experience with turbos is "limited" to everything from old Porsche 930s & 944s (now that was lag!) to 300 TTs, RX7 TTs, Supra TTs. Stock and modded. In fact stock and modded 300TTs were all I drove for 11 years (200,000 miles total)I'm not saying TTs are bad. But they aren't perfect either so quit hyping them as the perfect solution for everyone. I'd just like to see some balance here.

And cost was NOT a concern for me so don't offer that one up either.

joe

Sanderman

Whoever is telling you that is quite simply selling you bullsh*t. Just go to the Jim Wolf or Stillen sites and look at their own descriptions for each of their upgraded turbos. You will see references to minimal lag, moderate lag, and undrivable on the street / only for the track lag. But neither (and they've built hundreds of turbo cars between them) would would ever have the audacity to claim "no lag". It's just not possible.

Look. Turbo technology is not new. 4 valve heads and turbos have been in use on aircraft engines since the 1940s and on race cars for decades. Smaller twin turbos and boost controller have been available to consumers for years. There is not much under the sun thats genuinely new when it comes to boosting engines. So don't fall for that "todays turbos" line. Todays turbos are simply yesterdays turbos being sold to new buyers. Smaller twin turbos with lower mass impellers have been a big help, but they reduce lag, they do not eliminate it. And to take advantage of the huge boost numbers you see some turbo fanatics speak in terms of (500, 600, even 700 hp) you cannot get there on the stock Z engine. It's just not built to handle it. So unless you intend to do a massive engine rebuild or basically guarantee yourself of blowing up your engine in short order, your probably stuck in the 350 - 400 hp range no matter what.

And if I were trying to decide which way to go the last thing I'd do is take anything seriously I see posted on internet forums. I'd find my local / area Z club and go to a few events and hitch rides in a few booosted cars and decide for myself. Hey, the lag might not bug you at all. If so, great! But I sure wouldn't buy on the basis of internet posts.

joe

SQUILL

*sigh*

vortech @ 7psi 3000 rpm hp 144 tq 252
vortec @ 7psi 2500 rpm hp 111 tq 237

ati @ 7psi 3000 rpm hp 148 tq 256
ati @ 7psi 2500 rpm hp 115 tq 237

greddy @ 4.6 psi (stock) 3000 rpm hp 159 tq 294
greddy @ 4.6 psi (stock) 2500 rpm hp 127 tq 263

greddy @ 8psi (tuned) 3000 rpm hp 194 tq 343
greddy @ 8psi (tuned) 2500 rpm hp 139 tq 278

baseline dyno stock 350z 3000 rpm hp 130 tq 228
baseline dyno stock 350z 2500 rpm hp 105 tq 221

which system has more lag in the low revs???
What is your definition of lag? is it time until max boost is achieved? is it time until any boost is achieved?

all #'s dynojet.

Any turbo system has a certain amout of lag and that is inherent in turbos.

When should you care about lag ??? under 2000k rpm's?
If a turbo has 0 boost at 1500 rpms and a super charcer has 1lb boost at 1500 rpm does it really matter ???

remember these are twin turbos ...quicker spooling than one large turbo. they would be classified as "minimal lag"
Certainly not enough lag to even worry about at all.
Just look at the numbers which system makes more power sooner????

S12 driver

Shouldn't it reach max boost at redline just like a centrifugal s/c?Why would root type s/c's produce so much low end power?

alpine

Any chance of carrying this information through the RPM range?

great info! thanks!

alpine

Ok, Sanderman, You quoted me a few posts back about "todas turbos", and it was somewhat out of context.

Everyone knows there is lag in turbos, twin or not, smaller or not, tuned or not. What I was attempting to express is the lag is not as it used to be.

I do believe squill has a good poing about not concerning oneself with boost before 2500 and getting more boost, sooner with TT vs SC sooner is appealing.

Lets leave super setups and massive tunning out of the picture for this conversation. We all know if you have enough money and time you can make any car reach any spec.

My largest problem now is reducing the safety of the vehicle by having to modify the car structurally. This is not an option, so until I can see a better kit, or find out how to modify the package to NOT reuire this, I won't be going TT.

Other than you misquoting me, I agree with a lot of what you had to say, and thank you for contributing to this thread.

Squill has brought in some impressive numbers regarding ATI & Vortech (vortech is my choice at this time for SC) and the greddy TT. HP, Boost, and TRQ, all seem to be being delivered quite well from the TT

The next thing on the list is this "SC causes more wear&tear than TT on the engine" I don't see how one would be more than the other FI is FI, more pressure is more pressure, I know the SC is belt driven, but I don't see how that's going to cause this.

Then at the same time, supposedly belts snapping is a concern, how often does this happen anyways?

In my initial post, I was looking for information regarding direct comparissons from SC/TT on things like 0-60, 0-100, 60-100, etc..etc.. Anyone see any of this information around?

thanks again everyone!

alpine

Max boost yes, but boost is being delivered constantly, it's the same with turbos, you just get more boost sooner than SC.

As far as to why ROOT type SCs produce more power sooner than expected, new design?

Sanderman would not like that answer, as FI is not new technology, but design and how it's applied to a particular engine makes sense to me that "newer design is better".

Screws, pulleys, gear ratios, computer influence, etc..etc..

Also with supporting modifications each technology can be futher enhanced.

BrianLG35C

iTrader: (2)

Man, I'm was very close to going with a GReddy turbo but after seeing statements like this, I'm having very serious second thoughts. So wouldn't this structural mod significantly raise the chance of serious injury in any collision? Are there any alternatives to this with any other Turbo? I don't want to risk the safety of my family because of my higher hp desires.

PoWeRtRiP

yes the greddy is the only one that requires the removal of the front support. you could do a custom ic and bypass that but it would be expensive. keep in mind that the support is aluminum and mostly designed for low speed impacts. even with the bar you still would probably get hurt in a high speed frontal impact. but if you run into somebody at 15mph without the front support its gonna crush your ic, radiator, fan, and so on. so do you think you will be running into anything soon? if yes dont get it. if no then who cares

Bait-Fish

I'm with you both on that one. Safety is not something that can be compromised on. The alternative with the Greddy kit is to not buy their FMIC but instead either find one that fits better or have a custom one made. Another alternative could be a water intercooler. Those would be things to consult with your installer as to what options they can provide.

I'm all for turbo myself. In the beginning I was leaning toward SC due to ease of install but both due to parasitic loss and less usable power through the entire RPM range, I'd rather go turbo. True turbos don't get their motivation for free, but as long as you're not full throttle day in and day out, it probably won't be a problem. Turbos are simple machines, only one moving part, less to break there as well.