alpine

No need to apologize, I didn't take it that way.

Again, I agree with just about everything you said before, as well as this current post.

newbies, are newbies, and they have a lot of research to do, however as I mentioned in a earlier post, common sense still needs to be applied, and then some acknowledgement of "physics" applied in every day life.

So if newbies are going to take anything about Turbos or FI as "no lag" and run with that thought, then so be it. Anyone doing anything without some research deserves whatever the results are.

You seem to be on the same page as me when I started this thread, mainly when you are mentioning the "street" environment we live in, I thought SC was clearly the way to go.

Yes everyone who owns one or the other is MOST likely going to endorse that technology just to not have egg on their face from the backlash of "well why did you buy/install X and now you want Y?" When the only valid answers are "I love wasting money" or "I didn't do any homework and now I am unhappy".

Your experience with Turbos, and your switch to SC, and your admiration of both is appreciated in my case.

I would like to remind everyone this is for information purposes, and I hope no one gets nasty for the wrong reasons.

as always, thanks to everyone!

alpine

Sanderman mentioned that you get "instant response" from SC at any rpm/speed.

Is this accurate? Or is this also a personal preference/version of the facts?

PoWeRtRiP

its accurate. a sc will build boost based on rpm regardless of throttle input. while a turbo has to build boost based on throttle input i.e. low to mid throttle=little to no boost, full throttle = boost
if youve ever owned a turbo car youll know how annoying it is to have to either be full throttle and on boost or partial throttle and no boost

jak

The AIR BAGS did not go off because of the tampering of the system/sensors required to install the turbo.

I doubt the structural support was the main issue.

Jeff

SQUILL

Remember if you just do the greddy with intercooler 6500 +1300 installation (18-20 hrs) you need not do anything else. Higher flowing cats will always benefit any turbo set up.

I need to remind everyone that SUABRU and AUDI have been DOMINATING the road/rally races for years with their turbo cars.
TT's are not just for drag racing look at the low rev TQ these turbo systems are making as well as in a road race i dont see when on the track that turbo lag will ever significantly come in to play. The accelartion of the TT kits is vastly superior to the supercharger setups just imagine you are coming out of a corner and Floor it at 2000 rpms there is so much tq availible in the low revs you will have a much faster car on a track due to the sprints between sharp corners.

I wish we had comparissons of road track times between a SCed 350z and a TT 350z on the same track with the same driver...the tt car will always have the huge advantage on the track!

Check out this video of the APS 600 hp subaru wrx which has a dyno much like USAFARICE posted of the 300zx. This would be considered "high lag"

http://www.************************/wr...wrx_calder.wmv

Turbo systems are a force to be reckoned with out on the track they are not just drag racing setups!

UsafaRice

Whoa, careful there. Stuff like the VWs and stock DSMs spool very low and you really don't notice a difference. And turbo diesels don't lag either.

I understand the rpm based boost very well, but a properly sized turbo will have some boost if you're even near the power band.

Now, huge single turbos and racing setups are a lot different. Massive turbine wheels take a long time to spin up and there is wait time.

Of course, I can say that the Z takes time to "spin" up as well if you're below 3,000 rpm. It's got a great design, but needs rpm to make the air flow for the torque.

SQUILL

Powertrip you do not need wot to make a turbo'd car spool.

If you drive any factor equiped or aftermkt equipped turbo car and give it lets say 1/4 throttle once the car reaches 2500 rpms the turbos start to spool and the car starts to accelerate like mad... maybe you are forgettibg the function of the wastegates the greddy turbos can supply 25 psi of boost if you wanted so all that is happening is under wot the 25 psi turbo makes 4.6 psi like almost instantly then the wastegate valve opens keeping the rest of the 25psi from these turbos from going to the engine.

Now under 1/4 throttle the turbos wont spool as quickly hovever remember these turbos can produce 25 psi so once the turbine starts spinning under 1/4 throttle they will still produce 4.6 psi almost in an instant untill the wastegate valve opens again.

People may not realize these turbos dont need to fully spool to create their 4.6 psi for a stock greddy setup. They only need to reach max spool to produce the max psi that they are capable of producing which is roughly 25psi.

Yes a supercharger produces the same boost at any engine rpm no matter the throttle imput but the difference between the two systems is night and day. If you drag raced a tt car against a sc car at 1/4 throttle the tt car would slaughter the SC car.

The only reason i can honestly see to choose SC over TT is price nothing else.

PoWeRtRiP

alright now im convinced you have never driven a turbo before. every turbo car i have ever been in would not build any amount of useable boost underneath 1/2 throttle, at quarter throttle a car will hardly make any. a turbo sppols at all rpms not just 2500. at 1/4 throttle a greddy equipped car will not make any power to make it accellerate like mad.

a sc car will not be beat by a tt car at a 1/4 throttle that is absurd.

you obviously think that a turbocharger is the end all be all of motorsports and i leave you with your opinion but i strongly urge you to actually drive a car with one. it is not nearly the way you see it as operating, trust me!

zimbo

iTrader: (4)

Squill, in addition to price the safety issue is a concern to some of us--especially those of us who associated with the late Frank Steeves on this and other boards. He's the guy with the Greddy kit who was killed in the head-on collision. I'm not saying that he would have survived the crash were it not for the Greddy--but only an idiot would suggest that messing around with the structural integrity of the car as well as the airbag sensors is a non-factor when deciding on a TT kit.

To me, an extra $4000 plus the loss of structural integrity and possibly the driver-side air bag makes the Greddy TT an inferior choice compared to the Vortech supercharger in at least one person's opinion (i.e. mine) regardless of torque curves and boost potential.

You seem to want to simplify this discussion into an "only an idiot would buy a supercharger" argument. It ain't that simple, IMO.

--Steve

PoWeRtRiP

ya stock cars are designed for less lag to make them more driveable. and i never noticed much lag when i got on my stealth but driving my z now its clearly night and day compared to the 1/2 sec delay after pushing the throttle in the tt and then going. the z is amazingly quick to spool up i am very surprised to see that it can spool 2 mid sized turboes so easily. i wonder if a lower cr on the z will kill its responsiveness.

i still would love to see a single setup like used on the supras on the z. this thing could spool a very large turbo at low rpms and make huge power even at low boost. ive got my fingers crossed and have begun putting a lot of money aside if someone comes out with somehthing i like

jak

Steve,

Well said. That is why I am leaning towards Vortech now with the choices we have for the Z. I was originally sold on a turbo until this issue came to light with Greddy. That only leaves PE as a choice for a turbo and for the cost of the PE it just seems you get a whole lot more for the dollar with a SC.

How do you like yours? Do you get that rush of accelaration when you step on it like you do with a turbo? I have never driven a SC car so that is why I ask.

Jeff

SQUILL

No PowerTrip i do not think turbos are the end all be all.
If i owned a Corvette or a Mustang for example I would bolt on a vortec and be done with it due to the characteristics of those V-8 motors.

For a 3.5L high reving motor like the 350z has , turbos are superior.
Im not saying superchargers are junk or that i hate superchargers or anything like that but for our motor turbos simply produce better results.

If you are happy with the results that a supercharger produces on the vq35de motor then great, but you can not argue that a turbo system on the Vq35de is not superior throughout the entire power band.

I try to keep things here on the forum as a discussion rather than a childish arguement which this may digress into if i was to respond to posts as you have been

. If you feel that superchargers are superior to turbos specific to the vq35de application than post some evidence supporting your views rather than calling people idiots because they dont agree with you. Post some evidence that a supercharger is superior to a TT for our motor and explain why.

Ive owned lots of turbo cars and under minimal throttle their acceleration is superior to n/a as just like you said the turbos are always spinning. perhaps not "mad" fast but cretainly faster that a stock 350 or a supercharged 350.

Then you post that you stealth had a 1/2 sec delay and you are amazed how the 350z can spool up two turbos so easily.

But then you say you would like to see a single large turbo on the 350z...why?? Twin turbo's on a v6 work great the greddy kit on a built motor is good for at least 597 rwhp @ 14 psi because ive been to the shop that built it. keep in mind once the fuel system is revamped they will run the car at 25psi.

I cant see the possible benifit of a single turbo set up unless you are building a drag car 35-40psi 1000 + hp??

Anyway here is one of my turbo cars i suposedly never drove....aint she pretty???

SQUILL

Its really not $4000 difference its more like 2500 difference.
Anyway APS and JWT are both comming out with new TT systems and im sure they have learned from greddy and have addressed some of the downfalls with its current design. To do anything less would not make any business sense.

Im not saying the greddy system is a bad kit either it has a proven track record in the short time its been out at producing serious power but as with everything it can be improved upon.

Check out the APS system http://www.************************/350z/350z.htm

Im waiting to the winter to build up my car with a TT kit and am looking foward to seeing these two kits performance #'s

zimbo

iTrader: (4)

Greddy = $6800 + $2200 install = $9000
Vortech = $4250 + $750 install = $5000

--Steve

SQUILL

been quoted way less for greddy kit and install

http://www.revhighonline.com/page.ph...00000000008152

Greddy 4676
intercooler 1220

20 hours install x 65 per hour
1300

cost 7196

vortec (your estimate) cost 5000

difference 2196

little_rod

I love to hear that this motor is a high revving motor, we have 6600 as a redline, heck the viper has 6100 and it is old tech as they get. Our "high revving" engine isn't much higher than the vettes that you say benefit from a vortec, this isn't an s2000. With a stock Z, the main problem is it dies in the upper part of the rpm range, exactly where the vortec helps.

I don't think either system is superior to the other. I like the power and potential (IF you use it) of a TT, it has its faults, but power output is not one of them. Cause the stock boost is soo low, the boost an SC produces low in the rev range is real low. Just the nature of an SC, but whenever you want whatever boost it puts out, it is there in an instant. To each is own.

As for the prices, both of you guys are giving results that help you, lol. I have been quoted $8500 for a TT and $5500 for an SC. The average will be around 3K. And if you want a TT besides the greddy (because of crashworthiness), the TT will be more than that. IF money is the only issue for the choice, well that is like most things in life.

chaps

I've had both a turbo and a Eaton roots style supercharger. I think that you have to first ask yourself
how much can you bear to pay?
how much power do you really want ?
how do you want the power to feel ?
how safe do you want to play it with engine?
You can see the difference on install and initial costs in the previous posts. Both installs are probably fairly benign on the engine until you exceed 6psi. Beyond that the turbo has some real advantages, mainly since it does not have the heat soak issues. If going above 6psi or so, you should look heavily at turbo. Also, the supercharger is quickly going to cost more than the turbo's for equivalent boost, beyond the 6psi. How do you like your boost? Supercharger is more linear, Eaton is right off the line and Vortech is midband up. Turbos are midband and up with some spooling. Is spooling bad?, I haven't felt the TT's but for me, a little spool time was part of the fun. You can feel the brisk accelleration fast and expenential. A 0-60 in a supercharged car feels more like a bigger engine with the sound of a turbine going. The turbo is the standard engine, with a rocket attached, and a short fuse. I have the FX35 and will probably go for a stillen at some point. I like the low end, ease of install and cost. It fits under my hood, grin. I know that this will be it on the performance curve. If I was wishy on how much power I would need. I might go turbo, they really offer more for the person who is never done.

alpine

I like this idea.

alpine

Someone just mentioned the modification with the Greddy affects the airbags, not the structure.

Is that because the install was done poorly/wrong?

There isn't anyway to attach/secure the airbag sensors properly?

Thanks

PoWeRtRiP

no you have to modify the support and the airbag sensor to make the i/c fit

but keep in mind the guy that died was in a g35 not a z. so it could have made the problem worse since the kit was not made for his car