kcobean

iTrader: (2)

I don't understand. The Bernoulli principle states that at a given pressure (9 PSI), through a fixed diameter pipe, the velocity (CFM) is a constant. So if you increase the CFM, you are also, as a result, increasing pressure. If you increase the CFM through a given pipe (like the charge pipe), the pressure must also increase. If you talk about 9 PSI, measured at the same place in the two different systems (assuming the piping is the same size), the flow rate has to be the same.

So can one of the experts clarify that the cylinder/manifold/etc. pressures are constant at a given "turbo pressure" for both types systems? Where is the pressure reading taken from?

basam350z

iTrader: (1)

It's not a constant 9 psi. 9 psi at 3000 RPM is much different than 9 psi at 6000 RPM.

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

I disagree with your statement on tuning completely. If you are trying to argue the cost facotr this kit will cost considerably less even if you purchased a piggyback and tuned it for different levels of boost. This kit can be purchased for roughly 4750 plus a emanage and e01 would be around 5500. Install time for this kit is 10 hours at standard $70/hour is another $700 installed. Tuning another lets say 1k for arguments sake and you come up with 7200 tuned, installed, and ready for even higher then out of the box tune. NOw compare that to ANY TT kit. We'll do greddy for the cost. Price of kit is around 5700 w/ intercooler. Plus the average lets say 25 hours at $70/hr (some people have seen install times of up to 46 hours for the Greddy kit) $1750 plus another grand to tune and you get 8450. And of course with the Greddy you do not get the Walbro 255 that comes with the Turbonetics so tuning for higher boost is going to be even more difficult. This kit regardless of setup is going to be cheaper than any of the TT kits for two main reasons one is the intial cost is less and second the install time is easily half that of any TT kit. This kit can be tuned to make 650 to the wheels easi.y before you need to start looking at upgrading the Turbo. Furthermore should your goal initially be more then the kit comes with out of the box Turbonetics is very good and very happy to include an upgraded turbo and tune based on what you plan to run. Plus i'm not sure if any of the other companies do this but Turbonetics includes a 12 month 12k mile no fault warranty on the entire kit. Basically if ANYTHING goes wrong with any part of the kit regardless if it was your fault, their fault, or your installers fault they will cover that part of the kit. I know everyone is going to to say well stuff rarely goes wrong but look at the issues with the Greddy wastegate gaskets, PE and the smoking issues, Stillen and their blower unit issues, etc. All in all Turbonetics is a VERY reasonably priced kit that affords you the same power levels as the TT kits with the ease of installation and similar power band to the centrifugal SC kits. The Technosquare reflash for tuning in my opinion is the way to go. It pulls back timing and scales the injectors using a factory interface and does not rely on a piggyback solution that requires install and could possible fail if not installed correctly. Furthermore should further tuning be requireed a piggyback could be installed to further adjust the A/F or you could have your eCU re-tuned. With the addition of AAM to the scene there are now two VERY competent factory ECU tuners one on each coast.

kcobean

iTrader: (2)

I guess with all the research I've been doing, I keep seeing two things come up with certain kits that people really dislike.

1.) With the HKS S/C kit, the F-CON is locked and not tuneable. This left quite a few people quite frustrated when they needed to deal with lean A/F conditions, compensation for other mods, etc. To an extent, I view the Turbonetics solution as *kind of* the same in that tuning the ECU requires ripping it out of the car and mailing it to TS. There's a certain amount of risk involved with doing this.

2.) TS ECU Reflash. I've seen more than one person having to send their ECU back to TS over and over again, trying to get A/F issues worked out. If I pay $4700 for a Turbo kit, I don't want to go through all that. I want to be able to turn the car over to my tuner, and have him program the car to run right.

Now with all that said, the Turbonetics kit still looks like it has potential. Your points about cost, warranty, etc. are all very valid. I've no doubt that this kit can get me close enough to my 400 RWHP goal. I also greatly appreciate your point about being able to add in e-manage and e-01 so that my tuner CAN make adjustments to the cars programming, and all this for less than the cost of the TT kits. Do you suppose it would be possible and/or worthwhile to just leave the ECU alone and only use the GReddy managment systems, or is there a real need to have TS reprogram the ECU?

One more question.....Since the Turbo gets so hot, and is located up in the bay, what is Turbonetics doing to ensure that it doesn't melt wires or plastic and doesn't negate the functionality of the IC?

Thanks again for all your replies. I'm really excited to see this thing making it to the street in a few cars.

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

Yes you could just not send the ECU to be flashed and buy your own form of tuning. In fact turbonetics has talked about making a "tuner" kit fr just that purpose. Bascially no ECU tune. The cost of the tune is included in the price of the kit. So you could do it any way you like. as for your power goal. At present the Turbonetics kit is making 409 RWHP at 8.5 PSI with a 11.5:1 A/F across the board to redline. On the subject of heat. Turbonetics includes a preformed and made metal heat shield for the exhaust housing that does a very good job of elminating the heat. In no way is the IC rendered useless. The TT kits do their fair share of producing heat as well. I do not have the intake air temp reading from their last dyno but lets just say it was not any higher then the TT kits. At least not enough that you would notice.

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Hey Mia, sorry I havent been following the last 40 pages of threads!! Unbelievable...good thread.

Question is...hopefully not answered elsewhere...but what is the CFM or lb/min flow of this single turbo setup? Is the turbo really large enough to support 650whp..or roughly 750crank HP.

I like the idea of running single turbo coupled with an eMange and e-01 and tuning via MAP sensor via MAF sensor.

kcobean

iTrader: (2)

So a few more questions (of course )

1.) I know that there are people running these boost levels on stock lowers, though not many. However, I've read so many GReddy TT threads that say "Don't go above stock boost (5.6) unless you build the bottom end." What is Turbonetics position on this whole thing?

2.) I like the sound of the "tuner version" of this kit very much. With so many variables at play in a system like this (octaine rating, other mods, atmospheric temperature variance, etc.), it would be great to be able to fine tune at will without having to do a "mail order tune". Has Turbonetics made a decision about this version of the kit? If not, any possibility that they'll work out a "refund" of sorts for not doing the flash?

And finally, any word on when this kit is really going to start shipping?

Thanks man!!!

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

Sharif yes...According to Brad the turbo is good to 650. I do not have the flow rate yet as the turbo there are using has a uniqe compressor wheel. It is however a 60-1 Stage V so you could look at the standard 60-1 compressor map but it woulb wrong as the trim is different in this unit. According to the designer over at Turbonetics at roughly 18-20 PSI this turbo would produce 650 RWHP.

As for the amount of boost it runs. Again I think the type of system it is plays in huge on this. As for the tuner kit no I do not believe there has been a final decision made for the tuner kit if they choose to do one. The best bet would be to contact Turbonetics directly as they could better explain all the options on that. The kit should begin shipping in the next week or so. I believe the only hold up they were having were the injectors. They had a VERY large order in and it has not all been recieved yet. They are of course 380CC drop in injectors. No cutting, splicing, or replacing of the injector harness is required.

Wicked4u2c

iTrader: (6)

On a positive note, haven't been following the thread and please disregard my post if it has been talked about since I just read the last few posts. AEM has already been prototyping a few EMS units for the 350z. Actually my friend is one of their gunnuie pigs, its working excellent! The only thing is that its still would be considered a "piggy back" because of the drive by wire. Basically you will still use your stock ECU but have the capabilities to of course tune certain things on the car. If you have any questions i'll ask my buddy who is in deep with AEM, of course please dont bombard me with a lot of questions I don't want to bug him. But im not sure if this has even been brought up...? Anyhow, just thought id share because the way things are goign with Technosquare I wouldn't trust them at all. And that's just a disaster waiting to happen. How can you send an ecu or "reflash" when enviorment plays a HUGE factor in tuning. Elevation, Temperature, etc.. I can see why people are having problems with TS because these are factors that im sure are being accountable, but really can't fine tune it. Im sorry but I wouldn't recommend this as the safest method. IM sure Turbonetics hasn't had any problems because those cars were tuned here, but every car reacts different. Heck you can take the same 2 cars give them the same map and one will react different then the other so words to the wise. Get your car tuned! This kit seems very promising (not a turbonetics fan but A+ for design work) Im just waiting to see what happens when its released. I guess we have to wait and see...

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Wiicked, the AEM EMS is not a piggyback in the true sense of the word. It is a standalone, for all practical purposes. Yes, the stock ECU needs to remain, to run the CAN network, power windows, gauges, tec. But fuel and timing and completely disregarded by the AEM EMS, and the EMS has 100% control over fuel and timing; similar to the HKS FCON Pro. Piggybacks alter or modifiy stock signals....the AEM and HKS do not modify signals...they create their own.

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

Absolutely and believe me Turbonetics has given the AEM EMS a lot of thought but they are not yet ready for our cars and TS has shown to be a good solution. I agree the the environment variables are different but I know there are several people running a TS flash the same as others (ie: the ATI flash) and even being in very different parts of the country are doing fine. I can see your point with regards to tuning. However i think for most the TS reflash will be sufficient. Again I am not sure if Turbonetics has made a decision about the "tuner" kit but I will ask Brad the next time I talk to him...

Wicked4u2c

iTrader: (6)

Actually, AEM are the people who refered this as a "piggyback". Because you dont have total control, in a sense its considered a standalone but your still using the stock ECU and modifying certain signals. Of course this is just coming from AEM, and I also was under the impression that a TRUE standalone does not require or depend on the stock ECU. Same with PFC F CON Pro. IF you go to HKS website they don't say its a standalone but rather a Programmed Fuel Computer. Well, thats just the technical part. Really, it doesn't matter im just excited that AEM is going to relase an EMS for the 350z. This will just open doors to a lot of manufactures in the future and now for tuning.

Wicked4u2c

iTrader: (6)

Yeah, I also hear a lot of people complaining too?

Quote:

I can see your point with regards to tuning. However i think for most the TS reflash will be sufficient. Again I am not sure if Turbonetics has made a decision about the "tuner" kit but I will ask Brad the next time I talk to him...

Yeah, well if I were turbonetics I would just have the END-user (the "tuner" kit ) use their own fuel management system. This way most of the liability would fall off on Turbonetics, and really they would only have to worry about manufacture's defect or turbo failure. And of course would eliminate a cost to their kit, me personally if I were to buy this kit I would toss the reflash and get a different unit and im sure most people might feel that way. But if this expense is already added to the turbokit price than it will be a waste for a lot of people. The "Tuner" kit sounds a great way to go. any word on your Z now? Man it must suck not driving it... not trying to be a dick but shouldn't they have finished the kit first before doing the install? I know their part is done, and I have heard you adress that its TS the one holding them back. But why didn't they do the TS stuff so that they physically had all the parts ready to go and just install, just curious. Because as far as im concerned they are having problems or whatever they are doing and your out of the car man.... GOOD LUCK!

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

Like i said they have not decided on a tuner kit or not yet. That remains to be seen. As for my car the kit is done. They have one up and running on their car and have for quite a long time. The smae car you see at SEMA has had the kit installed and running for months now. The ONLY thing holding them up right now is the TS reflash. As I'm sure you know there have been several people having probs with the 04 ECU not just Turbonetics. TS should have that part done and the tuning should be complete this week. Remember also that my car was used to make the install instrutions so they have installed and removed all the pieces of the kit on my car several times to make sure everything is perfect and to take install pictures. The reason the TS stuff was not "done" as you say is that the 04 reflash was not yet avail from TS. They and EVERYONE else have been waiting for TS to have an 04 reflash that works 100 %. this is by no means anything Turbonetics could influence in any way. As for the "expense" of the reflash. With a street price of ~$4700 this is the CHEAPEST turbo kit for this car on the market and provides the same or more power then any competitors out of the box. Even if you choose to use your own tuning and ditch the reflash you could purchase, install, and tune an emanage on this kit at the current price and still be well under the cost of any TT kits.

kcobean

iTrader: (2)

While it may be true that this will be the cheapest Turbo kit available, I think it is unrealistic to use its projected cost to "undercut" the TT market. Adding the e-manage/e-01 function on afterwards does get me into the "out of the box" *price-range* of the TT kits, but I would still have less upward potential and yet have paid the same price. Like I said, this isn't a deterrent for me, it's just more argument that there NEEDS to be a "cost-alternative" tuner kit.

I think the real issue here is that if I'm paying in the neighborhood of 6K to purchase and have this kit installed on my car, I don't want to be bound by "canned programming" from TS. I think the TS product is great for N/A cars wanting to raise redline, etc., but as a tuning tool, I don't necessarily like it.

While I understand that I have the option to use other management systems *in addition to* the re-flash, I think a tuner kit that doesn't include any EMS (in function or in cost) and allows me to pick my own would sell me on this kit without a doubt.

Additionally, I personally wouldn't *want* to reflash my ECU if I'm going to add e-manage and e-01 components anyway in order to get the tune-ability I want. There is no need for the TSRF at that point. I think alot of folks that are considering this kit will feel the same.

I also believe that there is just way too much risk and potential for additional down-time involved in writing down the variables of my car on a piece of paper and sending it off to TS with my ECU, hoping that what comes back is a *dead-on* tune for my car. That's days of downtime everytime an adjustment needs to be made, where my tuner would only need an hour or two.

Am I still seriously interested in this kit? Hell yeah, but I won't use the TS reflash because I want my tuner to be able to work with the car. I'd really like to be able to use the reflash $$$ for other things that compliment and enhance the experience of the Turbo kit. Even if Turbonetics only dropped their cost of the reflash itself, but kept the profit margin from it in the price, that would be something.

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

I can see your point on the demand for a tuner kit from the market and I have relayed this to brad so it will remain to be seen if they do indeed offer this. However one statement you made I believe is incorrect...I dont think your assesment of the "upward mobility" of this kit is correct. This kit is good for 650 RWHP when tuned for it and set to roughly 16-20 PSI. This is at the very LEAST in line with the TT kits out there. At the current moment there are very few zs over the 600 RWHP mark and they are of course using the TT kits. And of course we are talking in the hypothetical that you paid for the kit as i layed out. So basically you will actually get the SAME peak horespower as the TT kit for about $1000 less then a TT kit and of course that is using the Greddy example. if you were to substitute this with the APS, PE, SSr, etc kit you are talking thousands less.

Wicked4u2c

iTrader: (6)

Agreed 100% Although not a fan of Turbonetics "TURBO's" I do like this kit and its simplicty. Im not going on price per say, but the single turbo setup and easy to install. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, this kit isn't that much cheaper than a TT kit. And to say its cheaper well, lets say its also missing another turbo and other components. I myself wouldn't trust Technosquare and like you said. To hit it *dead-on* is a risk someone is willing to take (NOT ME). I think this is a bad idea and don't mean to be negative, but to me its like the poor man's setup. The fuel management way, not the turbo setup. Im interested in this kit and also the upcoming APS single turbo kit... Im going to have to wait and see what happens in the future.

kcobean

iTrader: (2)

You know what would be really cool is if Turbonetics could strike up a deal with GReddy to include the e-manage and or optionally, e-01 with this kit! GReddy sells more product, gains market share, etc., Turbonetics surely will build profit margin into this, and the consumer ends up with a truly tunable, high performance turbo kit that tuners can work on. It would be a win-win situation for everyone.

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

i dont see how you can label this the "poor mans way" of tuning. This is not the only turbo kit using a TS reflash as its tuning method. Power Enterprise a rather expensive and rather nice kit also happens to use this as its only means of tuning. Furthermore the fuel issue is by no means a poor mans solution. What other kits include 380Ccs injectors that drop in. No cutting, splicing, or replacing of the injector harness at all? How many kits come with a Walbro 255 lph drop in fuel pump and regualtor? I can tell you that there are none in the price range. Not even close. Yes while the costs of this kit are less so is the price. how many turbo kits including all that I mentioned, front mount intercooler, etc are availabe for roughly $4700? This is by no means a "poor mans" kit. It actually includes quite a bit a nice things for its price point. This kit was never intended to compete directly with the TT kits. Although the power output is quite similar this kits market is those looking for something between the centrfig SCs and the TT kits. I believe it fills that gap well and at a great price point for what you get. Granted the TS reflash for tuning has been beat to death. In the end it will be up to Turbonetics if they decide to produce a "tuner" version of this kit. But even in its current form it is a great product at a great price that performs...

MIAPLAYA

iTrader: (3)

I know that this was discussed as a possibility. In the end I have mainly urged Brad to consider a kit sans ECU tuning to allow the end consumer to decided what they want to do. I know the demand is there and will of course bring it up with Brad again when we talk. In the past there was not such an issue with the other kits as with the Z. Other Nissans, Hondas, etc have not had problems with reflashes like the Z have had so in essence this is new terrirtory. for instance the kits they make for the Sentras use a JWT ECU that is flashed for them and people have no problems with these. I believe that if the Z were not so overly sensitive to environment variables we would not even be having this discussion. Turbonetics is simply going with the solution they have used countless times that has worked for them. Damn Z ecus.