21HP 19 FT Torque! On the 350Z
08-18-2005, 07:38 AM
#321
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Originally Posted by Jason@Performance
It looks like they need to do something with their mustang dyno... Either it is calibrated way off or their print out render is way off... seems like everything is moved over 1000 rpm or something... just odd...
08-18-2005, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by johnnyD
If you are an IT director, they need to can your a$$. This is the biggest crock of shiite I have come across in several years on these forums. Your objectivity is suspect, your logic is corrupt, and you can't possibly be so gullible as to believe half of what you write. I believe the members of this board have redeemed themselves and called your scam. BTW, how much did AFE pay you? 21hp/19ft-lbs RIP.
Nissansource was kind enough to spend his time on trying to prove/disprove the AFE claims. Whether he benifited from the time he invested is not really relevant. He's not in the auto performance industry so give him a break, and a thanks for at least trying to help.
08-18-2005, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bixby
I'm a Sr. IT Director and that in no way makes me an expert on Dyno's or the processes involved or required to get valid runs.
Nissansource was kind enough to spend his time on trying to prove/disprove the AFE claims. Whether he benifited from the time he invested is not really relevant. He's not in the auto performance industry so give him a break, and a thanks for at least trying to help.
Nissansource was kind enough to spend his time on trying to prove/disprove the AFE claims. Whether he benifited from the time he invested is not really relevant. He's not in the auto performance industry so give him a break, and a thanks for at least trying to help.
BTW that guy JohnnyD is just devirginizing his posting skillz here. I am hardly worried about his comments to me Thanks guys for standing up and understanding.
08-18-2005, 09:43 AM
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Who does this bag of wind think he is anyway?
Originally Posted by johnnyD
If you are an IT director, they need to can your a$$. This is the biggest crock of shiite I have come across in several years on these forums. Your objectivity is suspect, your logic is corrupt, and you can't possibly be so gullible as to believe half of what you write. I believe the members of this board have redeemed themselves and called your scam. BTW, how much did AFE pay you? 21hp/19ft-lbs RIP.
aside from another armchair critic.
Nissansource, thank you for trying. I cannot believe the crap that comes out of some people here. and johnnyd is a perfect example of a Blowhard...
08-18-2005, 10:49 AM
#327
Originally Posted by ZXiMan
So who sells the K&N Typhoon (with carbon box)?
All "K&N Typhoon" intakes comes with the carbon box and an optional ram pipe from the carbon box to the grille. Product code is "69-7070T<first letter of color>"
I have mine on order, waiting for it to be delivered.
/Roger
08-18-2005, 10:50 AM
#328
Actually, looking at that Mustang dyno, the results aren't bad. I estimate a 10 hp gain and 20 ft/lb tq gain. Jason's right, the graph is off, instead of terminating at 7,000 rpm, the graph terminates at 6,000 rpm. That is definitely wierd but I'm not sure the whole dyno needs to be thrown out because of that.
The torque gain is impressive. But, besides the RPM issue, my concern is, how do we know AFE didn't fiddle with the dyno before Nissansource returned for dyno2? A company claiming 40+ hp from an intake simply can't be trusted.
Nissansource, thanks for posting.
The torque gain is impressive. But, besides the RPM issue, my concern is, how do we know AFE didn't fiddle with the dyno before Nissansource returned for dyno2? A company claiming 40+ hp from an intake simply can't be trusted.
Nissansource, thanks for posting.
08-18-2005, 02:25 PM
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Well it does meter on the butt dyno but hey who knows. also fiddleing i know they typed in the numbers the way they did so the graph could be read alittle better they dyno turbo desil all day long so they had the graphs a bit different, but then again i dont know jack diddly about the mustang dynos
Last edited by nissansource; 08-18-2005 at 02:32 PM.
08-18-2005, 02:31 PM
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btw i actually got pulled over by fellow 350z member i guess he saw me blow past him today durring lunch and wondered why my car sounded soo much different then any other Z he has heard it was kinda funny b/c i asked him if he watched the forums and he said yah but didnt know about this specific thread
08-18-2005, 04:54 PM
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First of all, I want to thank “nissansource” for taking all the heat from a number of members here and taking time out of his busy schedule to come to our facility and dyno his vehicle at our facility. I appreciate his availability and working around our schedule. I appreciate his objective input on our intake system. Thank you very much, nissansource.
Secondly, I want to thank all of the members who have expressed opinions here, both positive and negative. Our purpose for posting anything here was to generate discussion and to draw attention to our company and to our products. With over 17 pages, I think we’ve accomplished that. Given the attention we received and the forum activity, we definitely intend to become a sponsor. This was our first attempt to utilize a forum to draw attention to us and it has definitely been a learning experience. We’ll be the first to admit that we make mistakes but we try to learn from them. We appreciate the platform that the moderators have allowed us.
I know that dyno numbers can vary depending on a number of factors: Dynojet vs Mustang dyno, ambient air temperature-even between consecutive runs, heat sink, hood open or closed, fan on the engine or not, etc. We now realize that most people view stated horsepower and torque numbers simply in terms of “peak gains” which is the difference in performance at the highest point of a dyno curve. On the other hand, we have emphasized, “max gains” which is the gain seen at the greatest point of divergence. We realize that even though we clearly state that our numbers are “max gain”, people will read any number given as “peak gain”. I see that this causes confusion and skepticism and we now recognize the need to state both numbers.
As much as we try to be accurate in stating our performance gains, there will always be skeptics. We understand this and welcome skepticism. The only way you can be sure is to try it yourself. In the real world, it’s not always possible to try out a performance aftermarket product to see if you like it or not. Air intake systems are not like jeans that you can try on in a dressing room.
So, for those members who have followed this thread and want to try our product, I would like to offer a rare opportunity to try something with minimal risk to you. I have made special arrangements with one of our dealers to offer a very special price on our 350Z intake kit. As a manufacturer, we do not sell direct. This offer is only for a limited time and to the first 25 members to log into the following site
"http://www.proguard7direct.com/rpStoreFront/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=841"
and click onto “add” to access shopping cart. Use the discount code “350z” in the box calling for a discount code. This discount code will qualify you for a special discount available only to my350Z forum members. We have even arranged to pay the freight to get it you. Again, if you don’t like it, just return it and you’ll get your money back. If you have any questions, PM me.
Secondly, I want to thank all of the members who have expressed opinions here, both positive and negative. Our purpose for posting anything here was to generate discussion and to draw attention to our company and to our products. With over 17 pages, I think we’ve accomplished that. Given the attention we received and the forum activity, we definitely intend to become a sponsor. This was our first attempt to utilize a forum to draw attention to us and it has definitely been a learning experience. We’ll be the first to admit that we make mistakes but we try to learn from them. We appreciate the platform that the moderators have allowed us.
I know that dyno numbers can vary depending on a number of factors: Dynojet vs Mustang dyno, ambient air temperature-even between consecutive runs, heat sink, hood open or closed, fan on the engine or not, etc. We now realize that most people view stated horsepower and torque numbers simply in terms of “peak gains” which is the difference in performance at the highest point of a dyno curve. On the other hand, we have emphasized, “max gains” which is the gain seen at the greatest point of divergence. We realize that even though we clearly state that our numbers are “max gain”, people will read any number given as “peak gain”. I see that this causes confusion and skepticism and we now recognize the need to state both numbers.
As much as we try to be accurate in stating our performance gains, there will always be skeptics. We understand this and welcome skepticism. The only way you can be sure is to try it yourself. In the real world, it’s not always possible to try out a performance aftermarket product to see if you like it or not. Air intake systems are not like jeans that you can try on in a dressing room.
So, for those members who have followed this thread and want to try our product, I would like to offer a rare opportunity to try something with minimal risk to you. I have made special arrangements with one of our dealers to offer a very special price on our 350Z intake kit. As a manufacturer, we do not sell direct. This offer is only for a limited time and to the first 25 members to log into the following site
"http://www.proguard7direct.com/rpStoreFront/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=841"
and click onto “add” to access shopping cart. Use the discount code “350z” in the box calling for a discount code. This discount code will qualify you for a special discount available only to my350Z forum members. We have even arranged to pay the freight to get it you. Again, if you don’t like it, just return it and you’ll get your money back. If you have any questions, PM me.
08-18-2005, 10:52 PM
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Grasshopper, nice doubletalk on the horsepower, and btw, a 31% discount on an item that is already 300% overpriced is no deal. I don't think the attention that you drew to your company here will enhance your business. You want a real review? Send me a copy of your intake. I will do a real evaluation, not a bs infomercial like nissansource; I will post before and after numbers on the same dyno, on the same day, and under similar conditions. Regardless of the results, you will gain back some of the respect that you lost through your deceptive marketing practices. You can feel free to evaluate the results like we did those from nissansource, although I suspect you will not have anything valid to complain about. If the horsepower gains deserve the price that you are charging, you will sell these like hotcakes. Otherwise, I would never ever give you my business, especially after what you tried to pull here. And oh yeah, I will perform the testing at my expense, on my own time, and I will return your intake, and you don't even have to stroke me (like nissansource).
08-19-2005, 12:25 AM
#335
Originally Posted by HockeyZ39
Hey does the K&N typhoon intake usually come with the part that goes from the front of the box to bring the cold air in? Or is it an extra cost for that piece?
Everything is included. It comes with the piping which you can connect to the front grille, or you can leave it as short ram sucking air from the shielded carbon box to the stock intake location, in the box there is a smart device to filter any water that would make its way in.
You can also select the color for the piping, it comes in polished, red, blue and silver.
Here is the product anouncement with some details about its construction and materials etc: K&N 350Z Typhoon product anouncement
Here is a believable propper dyno chart: K&N 350Z Typhoon Dyno Run
Here is the install instructions with pictures, you can see exactly how it looks like and installs: K&N 350Z Typhoon install instructions PDF
/Roger
Last edited by Roggan; 08-19-2005 at 02:22 AM.
08-19-2005, 01:06 AM
#336
Grasshopper, PLEASE ANSWER THIS!
Originally Posted by grasshopper
I know that dyno numbers can vary depending on a number of factors: Dynojet vs Mustang dyno, ambient air temperature-even between consecutive runs, heat sink, hood open or closed, fan on the engine or not, etc. We now realize that most people view stated horsepower and torque numbers simply in terms of “peak gains” which is the difference in performance at the highest point of a dyno curve. On the other hand, we have emphasized, “max gains” which is the gain seen at the greatest point of divergence. We realize that even though we clearly state that our numbers are “max gain”, people will read any number given as “peak gain”. I see that this causes confusion and skepticism and we now recognize the need to state both numbers.
In my opinion its quite the opposite, the "peak gain" near max RPM would be the area where you would benefit most from a more free filter setup then the stock intake!
Your own "dyno chart" confirm this ("max gain" = "peak gain" for HP):
The only explanation for your outrageous figures i can think of, espeiclaly when you say you are using "max gain" is that your dyno run charts where very jumpy and you have some ups and downs in the base compared to the intake runs that create these max gain figures... Even so to use those peak "errors" from the dyno run in your sales material is very disshonest IMO.
Originally Posted by grasshopper
As much as we try to be accurate in stating our performance gains, there will always be skeptics. We understand this and welcome skepticism.
AFE Magnaforce filter for the BMW E36 -Sales PDF
I seriously doubt that you will answer this one!! To me it looks like false marketing and lies.
Originally Posted by grasshopper
The only way you can be sure is to try it yourself. In the real world, it’s not always possible to try out a performance aftermarket product to see if you like it or not. Air intake systems are not like jeans that you can try on in a dressing room.
Initially i was almost a believer in your product thinking you might acctually have found something special and made a better filter then anyone had done previously, but seeing some of the impossible gains you are claiming on your website and in your sales material has made me realise that you cannot be trusted.
I do like the looks of your filters and they seam to be of very good materials and quality, i would definatly have concidered it if the price was ~250$ and most of all that you back the filter up with TRUSTWORTY dyno charts and claims about gains (for ALL your products). Now i and many others here will go with another intakes, i have ordered a K&N Typhoon intake with a carbon fibre airbox with water separation and cold air ram piping with for HALF the price of your intake, and i dont doubt that the 10hp K&N claims is more then what your intake does.
/Roger
Last edited by Roggan; 08-19-2005 at 02:27 AM.
08-19-2005, 03:53 AM
#337
Originally Posted by grasshopper
First of all, I want to thank “nissansource” for taking all the heat from a number of members here and taking time out of his busy schedule to come to our facility and dyno his vehicle at our facility. I appreciate his availability and working around our schedule. I appreciate his objective input on our intake system. Thank you very much, nissansource.
Secondly, I want to thank all of the members who have expressed opinions here, both positive and negative. Our purpose for posting anything here was to generate discussion and to draw attention to our company and to our products. With over 17 pages, I think we’ve accomplished that. Given the attention we received and the forum activity, we definitely intend to become a sponsor. This was our first attempt to utilize a forum to draw attention to us and it has definitely been a learning experience. We’ll be the first to admit that we make mistakes but we try to learn from them. We appreciate the platform that the moderators have allowed us.
I know that dyno numbers can vary depending on a number of factors: Dynojet vs Mustang dyno, ambient air temperature-even between consecutive runs, heat sink, hood open or closed, fan on the engine or not, etc. We now realize that most people view stated horsepower and torque numbers simply in terms of “peak gains” which is the difference in performance at the highest point of a dyno curve. On the other hand, we have emphasized, “max gains” which is the gain seen at the greatest point of divergence. We realize that even though we clearly state that our numbers are “max gain”, people will read any number given as “peak gain”. I see that this causes confusion and skepticism and we now recognize the need to state both numbers.
As much as we try to be accurate in stating our performance gains, there will always be skeptics. We understand this and welcome skepticism. The only way you can be sure is to try it yourself. In the real world, it’s not always possible to try out a performance aftermarket product to see if you like it or not. Air intake systems are not like jeans that you can try on in a dressing room.
So, for those members who have followed this thread and want to try our product, I would like to offer a rare opportunity to try something with minimal risk to you. I have made special arrangements with one of our dealers to offer a very special price on our 350Z intake kit. As a manufacturer, we do not sell direct. This offer is only for a limited time and to the first 25 members to log into the following site
"http://www.proguard7direct.com/rpStoreFront/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=841"
and click onto “add” to access shopping cart. Use the discount code “350z” in the box calling for a discount code. This discount code will qualify you for a special discount available only to my350Z forum members. We have even arranged to pay the freight to get it you. Again, if you don’t like it, just return it and you’ll get your money back. If you have any questions, PM me.
Secondly, I want to thank all of the members who have expressed opinions here, both positive and negative. Our purpose for posting anything here was to generate discussion and to draw attention to our company and to our products. With over 17 pages, I think we’ve accomplished that. Given the attention we received and the forum activity, we definitely intend to become a sponsor. This was our first attempt to utilize a forum to draw attention to us and it has definitely been a learning experience. We’ll be the first to admit that we make mistakes but we try to learn from them. We appreciate the platform that the moderators have allowed us.
I know that dyno numbers can vary depending on a number of factors: Dynojet vs Mustang dyno, ambient air temperature-even between consecutive runs, heat sink, hood open or closed, fan on the engine or not, etc. We now realize that most people view stated horsepower and torque numbers simply in terms of “peak gains” which is the difference in performance at the highest point of a dyno curve. On the other hand, we have emphasized, “max gains” which is the gain seen at the greatest point of divergence. We realize that even though we clearly state that our numbers are “max gain”, people will read any number given as “peak gain”. I see that this causes confusion and skepticism and we now recognize the need to state both numbers.
As much as we try to be accurate in stating our performance gains, there will always be skeptics. We understand this and welcome skepticism. The only way you can be sure is to try it yourself. In the real world, it’s not always possible to try out a performance aftermarket product to see if you like it or not. Air intake systems are not like jeans that you can try on in a dressing room.
So, for those members who have followed this thread and want to try our product, I would like to offer a rare opportunity to try something with minimal risk to you. I have made special arrangements with one of our dealers to offer a very special price on our 350Z intake kit. As a manufacturer, we do not sell direct. This offer is only for a limited time and to the first 25 members to log into the following site
"http://www.proguard7direct.com/rpStoreFront/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=841"
and click onto “add” to access shopping cart. Use the discount code “350z” in the box calling for a discount code. This discount code will qualify you for a special discount available only to my350Z forum members. We have even arranged to pay the freight to get it you. Again, if you don’t like it, just return it and you’ll get your money back. If you have any questions, PM me.
Looks like we've been "had". Based on this, it's all a publicity stunt. I can't imagine very many members here wanting to deal with a company that operates like this. I'd rate them lower than $tillen/Stealin.
08-19-2005, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DavesZ#3
Looks like we've been "had". Based on this, it's all a publicity stunt. I can't imagine very many members here wanting to deal with a company that operates like this. I'd rate them lower than $tillen/Stealin.
We will become sponsors of this forum in spite of the negative impressions we seem to have created, if for no other reason than to pay for the exposure we've already received.
08-19-2005, 05:07 AM
#339
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My question is, are you guys still going to advertise that the intake gains 21HP? Whether or not we talk about peak gain, or gain at max HP, it didn't make that much, even with the benefit of an oil change between runs.
08-19-2005, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Roggan
1. Do you think that "max gain" vs "peak gain" would explain your sky high dyno numbers and make your results more believable??
In my opinion its quite the opposite, the "peak gain" near max RPM would be the area where you would benefit most from a more free filter setup then the stock intake!
Your own "dyno chart" confirm this ("max gain" = "peak gain" for HP):
The only explanation for your outrageous figures i can think of, espeiclaly when you say you are using "max gain" is that your dyno run charts where very jumpy and you have some ups and downs in the base compared to the intake runs that create these max gain figures... Even so to use those peak "errors" from the dyno run in your sales material is very disshonest IMO.
2. Then can you PLEASE explain this! How can it be POSSIBLE to generate 42hp gains on a 190hp (crank) car with a cone filter and heat shield??
AFE Magnaforce filter for the BMW E36 -Sales PDF
I seriously doubt that you will answer this one!! To me it looks like false marketing and lies.
Yes very true, THOUGH this is the primary reason why a serious customer would want to see belevable documentation of the gains that the product produces! Not unreadable cartoon dyno pictures and completly impossible power increase claims. You cannot buy all intakes your are concidering to try them out, and even though it would have been free to return and shipping costs included most peopole dont have the time to install and ship stuff, you need to be able to compare BEFORE buying.
Initially i was almost a believer in your product thinking you might acctually have found something special and made a better filter then anyone had done previously, but seeing some of the impossible gains you are claiming on your website and in your sales material has made me realise that you cannot be trusted.
I do like the looks of your filters and they seam to be of very good materials and quality, i would definatly have concidered it if the price was ~250$ and most of all that you back the filter up with TRUSTWORTY dyno charts and claims about gains (for ALL your products). Now i and many others here will go with another intakes, i have ordered a K&N Typhoon intake with a carbon fibre airbox with water separation and cold air ram piping with for HALF the price of your intake, and i dont doubt that the 10hp K&N claims is more then what your intake does.
/Roger
In my opinion its quite the opposite, the "peak gain" near max RPM would be the area where you would benefit most from a more free filter setup then the stock intake!
Your own "dyno chart" confirm this ("max gain" = "peak gain" for HP):
The only explanation for your outrageous figures i can think of, espeiclaly when you say you are using "max gain" is that your dyno run charts where very jumpy and you have some ups and downs in the base compared to the intake runs that create these max gain figures... Even so to use those peak "errors" from the dyno run in your sales material is very disshonest IMO.
2. Then can you PLEASE explain this! How can it be POSSIBLE to generate 42hp gains on a 190hp (crank) car with a cone filter and heat shield??
AFE Magnaforce filter for the BMW E36 -Sales PDF
I seriously doubt that you will answer this one!! To me it looks like false marketing and lies.
Yes very true, THOUGH this is the primary reason why a serious customer would want to see belevable documentation of the gains that the product produces! Not unreadable cartoon dyno pictures and completly impossible power increase claims. You cannot buy all intakes your are concidering to try them out, and even though it would have been free to return and shipping costs included most peopole dont have the time to install and ship stuff, you need to be able to compare BEFORE buying.
Initially i was almost a believer in your product thinking you might acctually have found something special and made a better filter then anyone had done previously, but seeing some of the impossible gains you are claiming on your website and in your sales material has made me realise that you cannot be trusted.
I do like the looks of your filters and they seam to be of very good materials and quality, i would definatly have concidered it if the price was ~250$ and most of all that you back the filter up with TRUSTWORTY dyno charts and claims about gains (for ALL your products). Now i and many others here will go with another intakes, i have ordered a K&N Typhoon intake with a carbon fibre airbox with water separation and cold air ram piping with for HALF the price of your intake, and i dont doubt that the 10hp K&N claims is more then what your intake does.
/Roger
As for the numbers from the E36 intake kit, the dyno chart on the product announcement is not drawn but the actual dyno chart results from our Mustang dyno. We had a hard time believing the results too. The only explanation I have for the results is the tapered tube that we use. It allows us to put a larger 4 1/2" diameter filter on the system and seem to accelerate the airflow. Again, I acknowledge that using "max gain" numbers rather than"peak gain" number has caused some misconceptions. I will make efforts to explain our numbers better.
Whether the dyno results are accurate or believeable or good standards for comparing competing products, I agree that "drawn" dynos leave questions as to the authenticity of the numbers themselves. Althought we have started using actual "scanned" dyno charts as in the E36, I will suggest that we refrain from using "drawn" dyno charts in our product information.
I'm sorry that you feel you can't trust us. When you get your Typhoon kit, how about dyno'ing it and putting up the results? I'd be very interested in seeing the results you get verses the claims that were made. I don't know if I've answered all your questions or not but I've tried.
Realizing that some of the members like Roggan is outside of the continental USA, I should qualify that the offer for free freight is only within "continental" USA. Sorry about that.