Dildorado

That whole max gains vs peak gains is a crock of utter s*h*i*t
Nothing but doublespeak

grasshopper

Point taken. Definitely something to consider.

Roggan

Grasshopper, all credit to you for putting up and answering peoples questions! But i get the feeling you are avoiding my questions?

You seams to have covered most other questions but not my questions on the previous page, ill post them again:


And to add to that list of questions for Grasshopper:
4. Do you personally honestly beleve that your filter and heat shield connected to the stock MAF tunnel and intake piping generates a 25% increase in total power on a 94' BMW 325? (regardless of what your dyno says). YES or NO answer please

5. For the E36 BMW intake, how many runs did you do for baseline and the run with the intake, did all generate the around the 42hp or was this one peak "max gain" figure from one of the runs?

6. If you say that its a real dyno chart in the PDF for the E36, WHY IS IT SOOO POOR QUALITY COMPARED TO THE OTHER IMAGES?? It's impossible to make out ANY numbers, but i guess that is the whole point...

7. If you look closely at the dyno chart for the E36 you can see that on the filter run the power skyrockets out above the chart area just near peak rpm while the baseline dies at the same place, is this where you have your 42hp??

8. Your filter for the E39 (5-series) BMW (with the almost indentical inline 2.5 6cyl engine as in the E36) produces 4hp gains according to this: AFE BMW 525/528 Sales PDF . Does the 4" long 1½" larger diameter pipe and filter that you have for the E36 filter accomodate for the 38hp difference between these 2 of your filters on almost identical BMW 2.5 litre engines?

/Roger

Landbarger

iTrader: (2)

grasshopper has posted 6 times since...

"And to add to that list of questions for Grasshopper:
4. Do you personally honestly beleve that your filter and heat shield connected to the stock MAF tunnel and intake piping generates a 25% increase in total power on a 94' BMW 325? (regardless of what your dyno says) YES or NO please."

...was pointed out in post #348, I don't think we're going to hear a response about the BMW claims.

E K

iTrader: (10)

Even BMW issues aside, I've yet to get a response on the claimed 21 HP gain on the 350z and whether they are going to continue to make that claim. It's not a 21 HP gain peak power. It's not a 21 HP gain at max HP levels. No where is it a 21 HP gain.

The dyno, though not as controlled as I would like, looks like there is a 10 HP gain? This is not a knock on Nissansource, since he's not the one doing the actual dyno. But I realize that there are some things you can control for, others you can't. Ambient temp, humidity, tire PSI are factors you do your best with. But coolant temp, alignment, ECU resets, can be done.

If the intake was offered at a competitive price and marketed with a 5-10 HP gain, I don't think many here would have a problem with that. But with the claimed improvement not being realistic and not backed by this test, people take notice.

Roggan

Yes i agree.

I would have concidered buying one if:
1. End customer price ~250$ MAX (no competitior except full carbon etc intakes costs more)
2. Acctual scanned belivable dyno charts showing realistic gains and curves
3. Not publishing ANYTHING for any of their products ever which is logically impossible (like a 25% power incease...)


In my opinion the only way for aFe to move on from this position would be to either prove 21hp on the 350Z (AND a 42hp "max gain" increase on a '94 325 BMW!) OR to admit that they have published figures from "freak" dyno runs or however they got those figures and stop doing it and re-publish true gains!

Guys, look again closely at the BMW 325 dyno chart (which Grasshopper has confirmed to be "GENUINE"), look at the two HP curves (same with TQ) as they approach peak, the aFe filter curve shooting up out from the chart in a almost 90 degree angle while the baseline just fades down!!
AFE BMW 325 - 42hp gain PDF w dyno chart


Grasshopper, Is this how the full dyno readout looks like with the actual peak visible?: (pic below is same quality as in the sales PDF)

If no picture is visible, click here

Did AFE "accidentally" come of the throttle near peak RPM in the stock baseline run and inject NOS when dynoing their filter near peak RPM?! (And scale the graph so the top peak is not visible...)

/Roger

johnnyD

Even if we were to accept the 21hp+ gains, which are obviously bogus, what about the disparity in the pre/post gains at lower rpms where all other intakes typically post NO gains? The BMW curve shows the AFE intake making gains over the stock intake (which must have had a sock stuffed in it) from the start, at the low end of the posted curve. Check out the JWT intake dyno curve on the previous page - there are no noticeable gains until at least 4500rpm. The torque gains are even more pronounced. Apparently AFE has found a way to make fantastic low end torque AND unbelievable top end horsepower, all in the same upgrade. I have already been convinced that this is nothing more than a marketing ploy, something all vendors probably do to some extent. The only reason I'm following this now is to see how much bigger a hole grasshopper is going to dig himself in.

E K

iTrader: (10)

I've seen dynos do that frequently. I forgot if it's due to wheels running at such a high RPM on the roller, or if you get some interference with your RPM signal. But it's not true horsepower. That's like claiming an automatic transmission G35/350z makes 270+ ft lbs of torque at 3500 when it's due to the torque convertor slipping. That's why it's useful to be able to see more than one run in each configuration. Wouldn't the engineers at any performance parts company realize this on the dyno?

HockeyZ39

Thanks for the great info man!

Roggan

Or claiming 42hp "peak gain" increase with an airfilter on a '94 BMW 325...

Hehe yeah thats what i thought as well, but i also though no one would make claims of 42hp increase for a filter either...

/Roger

grasshopper

Regarding answering your questions on our BMW products on a 350Z forum, I'm reluctant to do so out of respect for the owners of this forum. As still yet a non-supporting member, I fear I may be overstepping my welcome. This discussion is very enlightening and I wouldn't want to be banned. If you wish to take the discussion to a BMW forum site, I will follow you there and respond to any questions there as best as I can. In the meantime, I've uploaded a bigger and clearer image of the dyno chart on the E36 system. Here is the link to our BMW E36 kit.

http://www.afefilters.com/5410171.asp

There's a link to the dyno at the bottom of the page. I hope it is helpful. Draw your own conclusions from that. Any response I make would be based on this dyno because that is all I have to go on.

By the way, for all interested observers, I have contacted Jason and I will be providing him with our 350Z kit to test. If there are any other questions you have, I will do my best to answer them.

johnnyD

Keep digging grasshopper... However, I wonder if anyone at the BMW forums is aware of this kit. Surely it must beat any FI for hp per $ spent. Maybe BMWs are a piece of crap from the factory and they were just prime for someone to come along and redesign their intake system. The new dyno curve is a lot easier to see. So if I'm reading this correctly, the AFE intake makes 25ft-lbs more at 2000rpm and as much as 35ft-lbs more at 6000rpm over the stock intake, with similar gains in between? That's also about a 20% improvement over stock. I'm thinking of getting a BMW 325. I wonder if I would get 50hp from a header, and another 25 from a catback. Wow!! Aftermarket part mfgrs should let AFE dyno all their products. Seriously though, we don't need to go to a BMW forum, just start a thread here in the Off-topic subject. However, I'm sure the BMW folks would want to look at this.

Roggan

Hahahaha, comeon!! If figured you could come up with something like that to aviod answering. You know as well as myself and everyone else here that this has NOTHING to do with BMW or whatever brand of car it would be BUT OF YOUR CREDIBILITY AS A COMPANY, and how likely your claims about the 350Z is true as you would have use the same dyno and methods in your testing. My perception (and many others here) is that the 325 BMW filter claims is just an even more extreme case of false information based on freak dyno runs or tampering.


As i am sure that many pepole here are intrested in what you have to say about these questions to explain the results that peope here have a very very hard time accepting i will post these questions in the "Other Vehicles" thread ive opened here: https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....51#post1646751

Please answer the questions there.


That dyno answers some of my questions though its clearly a really suspicious dyno run. Haha just look at the figures, i mean SERIOUSLY!

Stock Engine power: 155hp
With Afe Filter: 192hp

Lets continue the discussion in the off topic thread.


Looking forward to see the outcome of that, dosent Jason have access to a JWT and Typhoon filter to do a full comparison test? Perhaps AFE could sponsor that test to regain some trust?


/Roger

ZXiMan

BMWs (especially the M cars) are known to be pretty much tuned to the max from the factory. Adding aftermarket parts to these cars yeilds very little gains for a LARGE amount of money spent. In my opnion, the Dinan stuff is a freakin joke. You can spend $5,000 and only gain 17hp...sheesh :-P

hfm

iTrader: (1)

I said I'd check this statement out. The response was unexpected.

The source is genuine and confidential and is an individual whose opinion I have absolute confidence when it comes to matters relative to the 350Z.

A few things. First, I'd like to acknowledge that the MAF location can in fact result in increased dyno results. I suppose fuel efficiency will be lost by altering the ECU map but, for some people, including myself, that's an acceptable change.

Second, this maybe moot but, Grasshopper, I'm curious, was the graph SAE corrected?

Third, I'm looking forward to reviews by Jason. I know he will provide us with an accurate test. And, I commend Grasshopper for following up on this approach.

Lastly, I'm asking everyone to please give Grasshopper some slack. Sure, we're not buying the advertised claims. But, AFE is making an effort to demonstrate their kit. They did so with Nissansource, who took a lot of unnecessary guff, and now they're doing so with Jason. Until Jason posts the dynos, there's no need for on-going bashing. We all know what's up but, since AFE is complying with our requests for a true independent dyno, let's wait and see what happens.

grasshopper

Thank you. Your comments are much appreciated. I have also responded to Roggan's questions on BMW kits on another thread.

grasshopper

Sorry, hfm. I didn't respond to your question on "graph SAE corrected?" To that, I don't know but I'll asked when I get into the office on Monday.

orion350z

As someone who is quite experienced in marketing I must say......you are an amateur. If you went to school for this, get your money back. If you are following the advice of senior marketing staff, I recommend your company downsize. Anyone with a brain could have seen this many posts ago. The back-peddling that you have been demonstrating is almost embarrassing for me to read. If you are going to inflate numbers/claims, take small steps grasshopper. Tack on a couple here and there......good lord, you are claiming nearly twice the power of ALL other intake systems available for this vehicle.........doing so, with very foggy evidence.

Constructive criticism...........

The price; well, what can I say here......jesus christ on a crutch........outrageous!

The claims; again, so unbelievable that well, they're not

The marketing; I have seen $38 dollar intake systems on ebay with better/more believable pitches than those from your company.........what's really sad, if you are looking at $/HP.......their intakes made of leftover bulk plumbing supplies are actually a much better deal.

The conclusion; you guys/gals need to regroup. You obviously thought this was going to be an easy sell. Most with 350z's are not 16 year olds with ever-expanding, easily fooled minds. Most of us have been around the block a few times. Most of us have been taken for a few $'s here and there. Just remember, just because it is more expensive doesn't mean its better folks.............last but not least, if your company would like proven independent testing of just about any intake system available for this vehicle, do like any other MEMBER of this forum and use the SEARCH function, or use some of those marketing funds and buy a friggin magazine like the rest of us.

I will retort to your following responses now, just so I won't ever have to come across this thread again...........
grasshopper: I'm sorry you feel this way orion350z
orion350z:I'm not

..........continue; and I use this term loosely; your discussion

charlie_rdstr_Z

iTrader: (2)

You forgot somewhere in his thread he threw in a buy it now while supplies last gimmick. Did anyone get suckered into it?