06 airbox pix
08-17-2009, 02:14 PM
#61
Right...i read your argument already in this and the other pc thread. Just as the other guys such as 03three and terra put, i could care less about the loss seen in the first few seconds or so from a dead stop. Its a good argument, ill agree, but i care more about power realized while in motion, not at a dead stop, and the short time it takes for that heat to dissipate.
As was stated before, i have an 05' and the JWT performs better than stock box and if anything, equal to that of the 06 box, however its much cheaper than the 06 box. So you do the math. I still believe the JWT increases airflow over the housed intakes, and have yet to see anything telling me otherwise.
As was stated before, i have an 05' and the JWT performs better than stock box and if anything, equal to that of the 06 box, however its much cheaper than the 06 box. So you do the math. I still believe the JWT increases airflow over the housed intakes, and have yet to see anything telling me otherwise.
08-17-2009, 03:38 PM
#62
I have yet to see anything that the JWT, Stillen, Ijen or other aftermarket allows the engine to draw in more air than with the oem airbox. So what math are you referring to? The one where you spent $ to get worse performance down low and questionable gains up high?
I actually own the oem 03 airbox, use the 06 velocity stack and have the stillen airbox for my G sedan. I didn't really notice that much diff inbetween the stillen/revup versions.
As far as the 1st few seconds, it seems like a short time but one can travel pretty far and get though most of your gears in let's say 15 seconds. That's at least 1-2 seconds longer than what most mildly modded G/Zs take to go down the 1/4 mile.
But if you are just concerned with freeway running or constant part throttle, stuff fine. But for me, I stop/start at lights, stop signs, creep though the commute traffic all the time. So preventing heatsoak in important to me vs not important to you.
I actually own the oem 03 airbox, use the 06 velocity stack and have the stillen airbox for my G sedan. I didn't really notice that much diff inbetween the stillen/revup versions.
As far as the 1st few seconds, it seems like a short time but one can travel pretty far and get though most of your gears in let's say 15 seconds. That's at least 1-2 seconds longer than what most mildly modded G/Zs take to go down the 1/4 mile.
But if you are just concerned with freeway running or constant part throttle, stuff fine. But for me, I stop/start at lights, stop signs, creep though the commute traffic all the time. So preventing heatsoak in important to me vs not important to you.
Last edited by Jeff92se; 08-17-2009 at 03:42 PM.
08-17-2009, 06:53 PM
#63
I have yet to see anything that the JWT, Stillen, Ijen or other aftermarket allows the engine to draw in more air than with the oem airbox. So what math are you referring to? The one where you spent $ to get worse performance down low and questionable gains up high?
I actually own the oem 03 airbox, use the 06 velocity stack and have the stillen airbox for my G sedan. I didn't really notice that much diff inbetween the stillen/revup versions.
As far as the 1st few seconds, it seems like a short time but one can travel pretty far and get though most of your gears in let's say 15 seconds. That's at least 1-2 seconds longer than what most mildly modded G/Zs take to go down the 1/4 mile.
But if you are just concerned with freeway running or constant part throttle, stuff fine. But for me, I stop/start at lights, stop signs, creep though the commute traffic all the time. So preventing heatsoak in important to me vs not important to you.
I actually own the oem 03 airbox, use the 06 velocity stack and have the stillen airbox for my G sedan. I didn't really notice that much diff inbetween the stillen/revup versions.
As far as the 1st few seconds, it seems like a short time but one can travel pretty far and get though most of your gears in let's say 15 seconds. That's at least 1-2 seconds longer than what most mildly modded G/Zs take to go down the 1/4 mile.
But if you are just concerned with freeway running or constant part throttle, stuff fine. But for me, I stop/start at lights, stop signs, creep though the commute traffic all the time. So preventing heatsoak in important to me vs not important to you.
So you've seen no evidence, ive seen no evidence, except the fact that the JWT performs better than the stock DE intake, and better than many, if all, other intakes on the market for the DE. If i see evidence to support adding a velocity stack to my stock box making any kind of improvement, ill consider switching, just as I stated earlier.
It appears that just as the other discussions on this have ended, this will end the same...agree to disagree.
08-18-2009, 08:10 AM
#65
I think its credible to show gains, but who knows because the numbers are obviously skewed and alittle high. However it is a third party so im inclined to at least pay attention to it. DSport is quite a credible mag, the same as any of the others.
The Nissan Performance mag review a while back was MUCH better than this one, and was also a third party review with much more detailed results and more believeable numbers. I cannot, for the life of me, find this review online anywhere...however go to ANY 350z forum, including this one, and you'll find it quoted many times over.
I, however, posted something...at least...in the form of results, and saw nothing from the other side.
08-18-2009, 09:20 AM
#66
IMHO if you read into what Hydrazine says about ecu shifts etc... and considering that test was run with the hood open, take that test for what you will.
If you like the JWT, that's fine with me. The "other side" has spoken many times as I referenced. So I'm not sure what you consider "results" either way.
Run what you want, it's what makes this country great. Marketing is a powerful tool.
If you like the JWT, that's fine with me. The "other side" has spoken many times as I referenced. So I'm not sure what you consider "results" either way.
Run what you want, it's what makes this country great. Marketing is a powerful tool.
08-18-2009, 09:37 AM
#67
Here are a bunch of guys with way more at stake, spending WAY more than you or I will ever will on mods and have access to WAY more R&D and testing. You'd expect NONE of them to be using the oem box much less up to half. And to top it off, they are using it in the manner in which you talk about (ie... rolling, wot) and at a much more extreme manner
http://www.jdm-option.com/eng/featur...2/z33_v35.html
http://www.jdm-option.com/eng/featur...2/z33_v35.html
08-18-2009, 09:49 AM
#68
Results as in numbers.
I understand what Hydrazine is saying about MAF sending higher temp signal and the lapse of time for the ECU to adjust...but again, thats from a standstill and last seconds. Im not planning on needed max horsepower while sitting in traffic. Id be amazed if it was even 15 seconds as you say, for the heat to dissapate, seeing as how ambient air starts moving and circulating into the bay immidetly upon movement. Then what if vented hoods were applied to this situation? No fan, except a wind tunnel, can accurately manipulate airflow conditions in and around a moving car. IMHO, a dyno with the hood open and w/wo a fan present is a **** poor way to find results of any intake, but its the best any have been able to do at the moment.
As i said, my guys here tried closing the hood with a HUGE fan in front to get the optimal normal driving conditions while being dynoed for intake/plenum mods, and still I was hesitant to believe any results, but its the only thing i have to go by, so i must, as must we all.
Dsport did not market this product, nor Nissan Perf Mag, and i did not post the dyno results from JWT's website.
As i said before, this is a debate that rage on for a while.
I understand what Hydrazine is saying about MAF sending higher temp signal and the lapse of time for the ECU to adjust...but again, thats from a standstill and last seconds. Im not planning on needed max horsepower while sitting in traffic. Id be amazed if it was even 15 seconds as you say, for the heat to dissapate, seeing as how ambient air starts moving and circulating into the bay immidetly upon movement. Then what if vented hoods were applied to this situation? No fan, except a wind tunnel, can accurately manipulate airflow conditions in and around a moving car. IMHO, a dyno with the hood open and w/wo a fan present is a **** poor way to find results of any intake, but its the best any have been able to do at the moment.
As i said, my guys here tried closing the hood with a HUGE fan in front to get the optimal normal driving conditions while being dynoed for intake/plenum mods, and still I was hesitant to believe any results, but its the only thing i have to go by, so i must, as must we all.
Dsport did not market this product, nor Nissan Perf Mag, and i did not post the dyno results from JWT's website.
As i said before, this is a debate that rage on for a while.
08-18-2009, 10:25 AM
#69
Here are a bunch of guys with way more at stake, spending WAY more than you or I will ever will on mods and have access to WAY more R&D and testing. You'd expect NONE of them to be using the oem box much less up to half. And to top it off, they are using it in the manner in which you talk about (ie... rolling, wot) and at a much more extreme manner
http://www.jdm-option.com/eng/featur...2/z33_v35.html
http://www.jdm-option.com/eng/featur...2/z33_v35.html
So again, if the stock box as is was the way to go no matter what, end of story, why wouldnt they all be using it?
Last edited by GeauxLadyZ; 08-18-2009 at 01:42 PM.
08-18-2009, 10:43 AM
#70
Yes, most are using a modified stock setup, all have replaced pipe and filter, at least... Autech has built an almost identical K&N Typhoon CAI setup with the stock box, Sunline is using a CAI setup, and Central 20 is using an open filter w/ heat sheild.
So again, if the stock box as is was the way to go no matter what, end of story, why wouldnt they all be using it?
So again, if the stock box as is was the way to go no matter what, end of story, why wouldnt they all be using it?
Post #71 from Hydrazine sums up my feelings. He says approx 15hp for the 1st 4 sec or so. Not 15 seconds but IMHO significant enough for me.
https://my350z.com/forum/intake-exha...ml#post7160368
Like I said, I even HAVE the stillen unit (most like the oem airbox) and am still trying to decide which one I want to run. But IMHO, I've convinced myself that the JWT while having a nice cone filter and v-stack, the heat soak issues aren't worth it to me. Because in real life, I have to sit at lights and traffic. And low rpm torque/hp is important to me.
08-18-2009, 01:40 PM
#71
It's the airbox that determines the flow capacity. If there were hp gains to be made, why would they imitate the stock piece at all?
Post #71 from Hydrazine sums up my feelings. He says approx 15hp for the 1st 4 sec or so. Not 15 seconds but IMHO significant enough for me.
https://my350z.com/forum/intake-exha...ml#post7160368
Like I said, I even HAVE the stillen unit (most like the oem airbox) and am still trying to decide which one I want to run. But IMHO, I've convinced myself that the JWT while having a nice cone filter and v-stack, the heat soak issues aren't worth it to me. Because in real life, I have to sit at lights and traffic. And low rpm torque/hp is important to me.
Post #71 from Hydrazine sums up my feelings. He says approx 15hp for the 1st 4 sec or so. Not 15 seconds but IMHO significant enough for me.
https://my350z.com/forum/intake-exha...ml#post7160368
Like I said, I even HAVE the stillen unit (most like the oem airbox) and am still trying to decide which one I want to run. But IMHO, I've convinced myself that the JWT while having a nice cone filter and v-stack, the heat soak issues aren't worth it to me. Because in real life, I have to sit at lights and traffic. And low rpm torque/hp is important to me.
If these team engineers are not decided on one optimal setup, there's no way in hell any of us are going to have the expertise to decide. Point being, they must have found a legit reason to run either setup.
08-18-2009, 10:22 PM
#72
https://my350z.com/forum/7625366-post169.html
Heat soak on the usual short ram and cold air intakes can reduce launching power considerably.
When stopped at a stop light or staging area air intake temperatures rise rapidly from ambient to 120'-150' F.
At launch, it takes about 6-8 seconds for the MAF sensor to register ambient temperatures at a WOT launch... but as you can see in the plot below, that can be 6-8 at a significant loss of power.
When stopped at a stop light or staging area air intake temperatures rise rapidly from ambient to 120'-150' F.
At launch, it takes about 6-8 seconds for the MAF sensor to register ambient temperatures at a WOT launch... but as you can see in the plot below, that can be 6-8 at a significant loss of power.
08-19-2009, 05:35 AM
#73
I dont understand...that just looks like a regular dyno chart with tq and hp measurements... and it looks like "air intake temps" were just slapped on the hp chart. Is the ability to read the intake temp part of the program he used for dyno results? What is he compairing in the green/yellow... is this stock box vs. short ram?
How is he measuring the air intake temp? Is this program monitoring temp in correlation to his speed just the same as regular hp/tq dyno #'s are? where is a graph that i can look at that will show me the rise and fall of the intake temp according to his 0-102? If i had another graph w/ intake temp OR even bay temp to coincide with the regular dyno charts, then that would be 100% legit.
Im in no way doubting Hydro, but at the same time i could use some info on this process so i know for 100% im not just looking at "air intake temps" pasted to some dyno results. Again, i see no reason whatsoever for him to bs these intake temp numbers, im more worried about him controlling his variables in this process...as in how was the intake temp tied to the rest of these results?
I also dont understand how, if the loss was only in the first 6-8 like he says, then why the hell is there a consistent loss accross the band, that never tapers off?
Last edited by GeauxLadyZ; 08-19-2009 at 05:40 AM.
08-19-2009, 11:02 AM
#75
Remeber, if you didnt except my Dsport dyno results, writeup, etc. then wouldnt it be at least prudent for me to question your semi-self explainable link to Tony's results.
I know Tony does his homework and knows his stuff, but im playing Devil's advocate here. If i just joined this forum id be more like "who the *** is Tony?" One guy's results changes the way every Z owner modifies their intake setup? Common now.
Like i said before, the engineers for the said race teams mentioned above decided NOT to use the stock box, or to heavily modify it. Do you think THEY did any R&D before making this decision?
Or just the other teams had Tony's phone number and they didnt?
Last edited by GeauxLadyZ; 08-19-2009 at 11:08 AM.
08-19-2009, 11:34 AM
#76
Im diggin having this discussion with you dude, but theres a couple things your failing to realize:
A. Your entire argument is based on one man's results, which lack explaination into the process of the experiment and unadequate paper results (from what i have seen) This is by no means any reason for you to talk as though you have any kind of "end all" answer to the "best intake" question.
B. The race team info you provided was good, but not all teams are using the stock box, and also must take into account that gains from an intake are minimal at best with the Z, so saving any money possible in this respect would prob be a good idea on the teams' part, and ours. You havent provided a response to this.
C. You cant even provide me with ANY results on the true effects of heat soak in any application.
D. If your theory is correct, then whats the point of EVER having an open filter in any application, seeing as how every car out there would have similar issues with heat soak as long as the open filter was located inside the bay.
E. Although Tony knows his shet, and i know he does ( I just got through reading an amazing post by him on exhausts the other day) even if his tests were done with correctly controlling his variables and in optimal conditions and with syncronizing results, theres still no way he did these tests in a wind tunnel or while in motion to provide us with real world application results.
F. Based on the above facts, you are basically trusting in Tony and his tests and thereby making a decision (or opinion really) on whether you think this or another application is better. You are making a decision on limited facts, therefore this decision is neither right nor wrong with the limited knowledge we have on this subject. I am making the same decision on my end based on what i have seen with the PC.
Neither of us is right or wrong, and yes, you cannot convince me that your side is correct because you dont even know that yourself, you just think you do.
A. Your entire argument is based on one man's results, which lack explaination into the process of the experiment and unadequate paper results (from what i have seen) This is by no means any reason for you to talk as though you have any kind of "end all" answer to the "best intake" question.
B. The race team info you provided was good, but not all teams are using the stock box, and also must take into account that gains from an intake are minimal at best with the Z, so saving any money possible in this respect would prob be a good idea on the teams' part, and ours. You havent provided a response to this.
C. You cant even provide me with ANY results on the true effects of heat soak in any application.
D. If your theory is correct, then whats the point of EVER having an open filter in any application, seeing as how every car out there would have similar issues with heat soak as long as the open filter was located inside the bay.
E. Although Tony knows his shet, and i know he does ( I just got through reading an amazing post by him on exhausts the other day) even if his tests were done with correctly controlling his variables and in optimal conditions and with syncronizing results, theres still no way he did these tests in a wind tunnel or while in motion to provide us with real world application results.
F. Based on the above facts, you are basically trusting in Tony and his tests and thereby making a decision (or opinion really) on whether you think this or another application is better. You are making a decision on limited facts, therefore this decision is neither right nor wrong with the limited knowledge we have on this subject. I am making the same decision on my end based on what i have seen with the PC.
Neither of us is right or wrong, and yes, you cannot convince me that your side is correct because you dont even know that yourself, you just think you do.
08-19-2009, 11:42 AM
#77
I respect Tony's opinion and his R&D. I haven't seen any errors in 99% of this posts here. But maf datalogging has been also done by others with similar results. Dave B and Z1 are two that I remember. The VQ35 doesn't like heat. Period. It's why Tony developed the iso thermo proucts for the TB and the lower manifold.
My point about Tony's comments deal with heat soak and it's effect on standstill running and how long it takes to recover from it. This is also something you have already acknowledged is not important to you.(but important to me) So it seems the JWT would appear to be the choice for you. (although I'd perfer the stillen as it does the same as the JWT with more heatsoak protection)
My point about Tony's comments deal with heat soak and it's effect on standstill running and how long it takes to recover from it. This is also something you have already acknowledged is not important to you.(but important to me) So it seems the JWT would appear to be the choice for you. (although I'd perfer the stillen as it does the same as the JWT with more heatsoak protection)
08-19-2009, 01:36 PM
#79
MUCH respect to Jeff for sticking it out with me on here, and providing one great argument. This has prob been the longest, most enjoyable discussion i have had since i joined, with little to no retarded interruption. It just took a few pages to weed those guys out and find someone interested in seriously discussing this subject.
Last edited by GeauxLadyZ; 08-19-2009 at 01:37 PM.
08-19-2009, 01:43 PM
#80
I respect Tony's opinion and his R&D. I haven't seen any errors in 99% of this posts here. But maf datalogging has been also done by others with similar results. Dave B and Z1 are two that I remember. The VQ35 doesn't like heat. Period. It's why Tony developed the iso thermo proucts for the TB and the lower manifold.
My point about Tony's comments deal with heat soak and it's effect on standstill running and how long it takes to recover from it. This is also something you have already acknowledged is not important to you.(but important to me) So it seems the JWT would appear to be the choice for you. (although I'd perfer the stillen as it does the same as the JWT with more heatsoak protection)
My point about Tony's comments deal with heat soak and it's effect on standstill running and how long it takes to recover from it. This is also something you have already acknowledged is not important to you.(but important to me) So it seems the JWT would appear to be the choice for you. (although I'd perfer the stillen as it does the same as the JWT with more heatsoak protection)
Id also love to see some thermo readings from the bay and intake area while being dynoed, and even better while driving. But i figure thats going to be very hard to come by, if even.