ART pipes vs. Helix test pipes
04-01-2010, 02:28 PM
#41
Because I didnt over react I must be biased. Seems a bit presumptuous to me. Maybe you shouldn't over react to these results. As clearly stated, the results are with crawford headers. Tony designed these with the stock manifolds in mind.
You state I was looking for more power and got none. You are incorrect. I clearly stated i gained 14ft/lbs around 2100rpm. This rpm band is the one downfall of all other test pipes. These ART pipes help fix that problem for me even with the Crawford headers. Keep in mind I have already gained a bunch of power when i fitted the Helix test pipes. So forgive me if I dont understand why i should be upset because I gained a lot of torque down low and basically broke even everywhere else compared to a test pipe.
I did the dyno so everyone could see the results. No other reason.
For some people having the absolute most horsepower at the expense of droning is not an option. I offer up Tony has found a way to give you the MOST area under the curve and fix the droning/rasp at the same time. They clearly are better than the test pipes in this regard. Maybe you are more clear why Im not upset with the product but actually thrilled with the product now. By the way, I will mod my car for my reasons and you mod your car for your reasons. Not everyone wants more power at the expense of drivability. Tony has given both. Fair enough?
Am I a fan of Tony's products? Sure, because they work, make more power and are well built. Bias? I think not. You have the dyno sheets. The facts are the facts. What you choose to conclude from them is up to you. What i see is a product that makes power across the board compared to stock (my Helix pipes did and these ART pipes matched them), adds significant power down low compared to all other test pipes and gets rid of most of the drone and all of the rasp. You do pay a premium for all of these bonuses.
I do agree with you on one front. I do want to see an independent review of these using the stock manifolds.
I think this is all a matter of perspective and expectations. Clearly mine are different than yours.
You state I was looking for more power and got none. You are incorrect. I clearly stated i gained 14ft/lbs around 2100rpm. This rpm band is the one downfall of all other test pipes. These ART pipes help fix that problem for me even with the Crawford headers. Keep in mind I have already gained a bunch of power when i fitted the Helix test pipes. So forgive me if I dont understand why i should be upset because I gained a lot of torque down low and basically broke even everywhere else compared to a test pipe.
I did the dyno so everyone could see the results. No other reason.
For some people having the absolute most horsepower at the expense of droning is not an option. I offer up Tony has found a way to give you the MOST area under the curve and fix the droning/rasp at the same time. They clearly are better than the test pipes in this regard. Maybe you are more clear why Im not upset with the product but actually thrilled with the product now. By the way, I will mod my car for my reasons and you mod your car for your reasons. Not everyone wants more power at the expense of drivability. Tony has given both. Fair enough?
Am I a fan of Tony's products? Sure, because they work, make more power and are well built. Bias? I think not. You have the dyno sheets. The facts are the facts. What you choose to conclude from them is up to you. What i see is a product that makes power across the board compared to stock (my Helix pipes did and these ART pipes matched them), adds significant power down low compared to all other test pipes and gets rid of most of the drone and all of the rasp. You do pay a premium for all of these bonuses.
I do agree with you on one front. I do want to see an independent review of these using the stock manifolds.
I think this is all a matter of perspective and expectations. Clearly mine are different than yours.
I am just showing interest in your test I am sorry a couple do not agree or want to shut me up. This is the forum in effect though read and learn.
04-01-2010, 02:34 PM
#42
One cannot disprove your argument because it's fundamentally illogical. If it doesn't show gains, you're right because they were never feasible. And if it does show gains, you're right because it's clearly biased. Your statements do not help unbias anything. They simply inject unreasonable levels of skepticism into the discussion. You have backed it up not with facts but with speculation and personal opinion.
If the OP likes the other effects of the pipes, it's his opinion - and clearly nothing but that. That's not bias, that's opinion. Numbers speak for themselves. And on that, we have no independent numbers speaking on behalf of the gains with a stock manifold. We do have numbers, though. We have Tony's original numbers. However, you clearly don't trust that. No, you'd rather indirectly call him a liar. That's fine. That's your call. But let's be clear about it. If you think that Tony "controls" the reviewing process, you're full of crap. I cannot begin to tell you how much emphasis he put on having the exact same conditions for my before/after dyno testing with these pipes. He was uncomfortable with the fact that I would have to drive more than one block to the dyno, for goodness sake. He gave me the best times to do it so that ambient conditions would not change. He mentioned all kinds of things like that. So sure, if you want to say he controls it, at least get it straight - he tries to ensure a completely unbiased reviewing process and to let the numbers speak for themselves. If you don't get that by now, you really have no idea what you're talking about.
I understand what you're saying with regard to the OP. I wouldn't be happy with such little gains, either. However, Motordyne has earned the respect that it's being given - they've earned the benefit of the doubt that some of us are extending it after ONE before/after comparison. Motordyne has a long history of yielding the exact same gains they advertise. I can speak from personal experience on this with every single Motordyne product I've purchased. So am I biased? I would say not. Rather, I am making a very reasonable and logical suggestion based on multiple, consistent accounts of reliable gains. In light of the overwhelming evidence standing against your claims, your argument looks silly. And that's not even touching on the nonfalsifiability of your theory...
I don't want to waste any more of my time with your unreasonable and illogical argument. I made a very accurate observation of the nature of your statements - one you have denied yet not refuted. I'd prefer not to crap all over this thread with post after post of this back-and-forth banter. I've been involved in enough arguments to recognize when someone will not see reason. So if you want to continue this discussion, PM me. Otherwise, drop it.
If the OP likes the other effects of the pipes, it's his opinion - and clearly nothing but that. That's not bias, that's opinion. Numbers speak for themselves. And on that, we have no independent numbers speaking on behalf of the gains with a stock manifold. We do have numbers, though. We have Tony's original numbers. However, you clearly don't trust that. No, you'd rather indirectly call him a liar. That's fine. That's your call. But let's be clear about it. If you think that Tony "controls" the reviewing process, you're full of crap. I cannot begin to tell you how much emphasis he put on having the exact same conditions for my before/after dyno testing with these pipes. He was uncomfortable with the fact that I would have to drive more than one block to the dyno, for goodness sake. He gave me the best times to do it so that ambient conditions would not change. He mentioned all kinds of things like that. So sure, if you want to say he controls it, at least get it straight - he tries to ensure a completely unbiased reviewing process and to let the numbers speak for themselves. If you don't get that by now, you really have no idea what you're talking about.
I understand what you're saying with regard to the OP. I wouldn't be happy with such little gains, either. However, Motordyne has earned the respect that it's being given - they've earned the benefit of the doubt that some of us are extending it after ONE before/after comparison. Motordyne has a long history of yielding the exact same gains they advertise. I can speak from personal experience on this with every single Motordyne product I've purchased. So am I biased? I would say not. Rather, I am making a very reasonable and logical suggestion based on multiple, consistent accounts of reliable gains. In light of the overwhelming evidence standing against your claims, your argument looks silly. And that's not even touching on the nonfalsifiability of your theory...
I don't want to waste any more of my time with your unreasonable and illogical argument. I made a very accurate observation of the nature of your statements - one you have denied yet not refuted. I'd prefer not to crap all over this thread with post after post of this back-and-forth banter. I've been involved in enough arguments to recognize when someone will not see reason. So if you want to continue this discussion, PM me. Otherwise, drop it.
I just wish to point out though in your second paragraph were you state how serious Tony was with the procedure. This goes just as much the other direction,. If you do everything wrong you could make his product look horrible. You now have a clue why dynos are only for reference when dealing with small changes to mods. The numbers themself though could ruin a good product because people tend to follow them over cliffs.
04-01-2010, 03:09 PM
#43
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...I am just in for the test pipes comparisons to see if you really got something here.
I got a lot of respect for you Tony, a real stand up guy you seem to be(Yoda like). I just wish some of your die hards would just be more rational when it come to exhaust mods on a N/A motor. We are not in the spacer days anymore.
I got a lot of respect for you Tony, a real stand up guy you seem to be(Yoda like). I just wish some of your die hards would just be more rational when it come to exhaust mods on a N/A motor. We are not in the spacer days anymore.
Last edited by onagao; 04-01-2010 at 03:14 PM.
04-01-2010, 03:41 PM
#44
I find it perplexing how you simultaneously claim to have a lot of respect for Tony yet indirectly assert he is lying with his initial claims for the ART pipe gains over test pipes. You say one thing like you are open to the possibility of Tony's reported gains being truthful and follow it right up with passive aggressive assertions that anyone who thinks it's likely is being irrational. I don't mean to come off too harsh, but don't you see anything wrong with that?
Also here you go not compehending, I respect Tony and the proof is I did not slam his product after the gains were in unusable areas. You really need to stop, you will bring more negative to Tony by being this way.
Last edited by screener; 04-01-2010 at 03:43 PM.
04-01-2010, 03:56 PM
#45
Registered User
Come on guy, don't forget to cuddle the *****. Wow you are die hard. Tony, how much you digging this one?
Also here you go not compehending, I respect Tony and the proof is I did not slam his product after the gains were in unusable areas. You really need to stop, you will bring more negative to Tony by being this way.
Also here you go not compehending, I respect Tony and the proof is I did not slam his product after the gains were in unusable areas. You really need to stop, you will bring more negative to Tony by being this way.
Last edited by onagao; 04-01-2010 at 03:59 PM.
04-01-2010, 07:01 PM
#46
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Come on guy, don't forget to cuddle the *****. Wow you are die hard. Tony, how much you digging this one?
Also here you go not compehending, I respect Tony and the proof is I did not slam his product after the gains were in unusable areas. You really need to stop, you will bring more negative to Tony by being this way.
Also here you go not compehending, I respect Tony and the proof is I did not slam his product after the gains were in unusable areas. You really need to stop, you will bring more negative to Tony by being this way.
Everytime you pull away from a stop sign/light you feel it. Everytime you roll into the throttle from a cruise on the highway you feel it. It simply makes for more effortless acceleration without even trying. Maybe this product isn't what you want but that doesn't mean it isn't the right product for lots of others. Think of others out there that are looking at replacing the stock cats. You get at least as much power as other test pipes and lots more down low. You also get the removal of the drone and rasp which is very nice. Everyone has different needs so lets agree on that at least and agree that Tony is a stand up guy that makes great products.
Last edited by bluezee; 04-01-2010 at 07:03 PM.
04-02-2010, 02:19 AM
#47
Why do you keep insisting the measurable gains are in the unusable range. Not everyone runs around town WOT all the time. (Though I do plenty of that at the tracks too)?
Everytime you pull away from a stop sign/light you feel it. Everytime you roll into the throttle from a cruise on the highway you feel it. It simply makes for more effortless acceleration without even trying. Maybe this product isn't what you want but that doesn't mean it isn't the right product for lots of others. Think of others out there that are looking at replacing the stock cats. You get at least as much power as other test pipes and lots more down low. You also get the removal of the drone and rasp which is very nice. Everyone has different needs so lets agree on that at least and agree that Tony is a stand up guy that makes great products.
Everytime you pull away from a stop sign/light you feel it. Everytime you roll into the throttle from a cruise on the highway you feel it. It simply makes for more effortless acceleration without even trying. Maybe this product isn't what you want but that doesn't mean it isn't the right product for lots of others. Think of others out there that are looking at replacing the stock cats. You get at least as much power as other test pipes and lots more down low. You also get the removal of the drone and rasp which is very nice. Everyone has different needs so lets agree on that at least and agree that Tony is a stand up guy that makes great products.
Did you have a driveability tune done as well? If so do you have any of the dyno graphs to post?
onagao, seriously you are a fan boy for life, there is no having a unbias conversation with you, so I was hoping to blow you off, with X talk. If Motordyne came out with floormats and said they would cut 2lbs and give you better throttle response, you would be sold(thats even without logo imprint).
J/K.... would you buy them?
04-02-2010, 06:52 AM
#48
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Beddow:
You just don't stop. I've been nothing but rational and reasonable, and you do little more than make accusations and personal attacks in response. You're entitled to your opinion - even one which conveniently paints me as some lunatic fanboy despite facts to the contrary staring you directly in the face. I can only try to reason with you for so long before I give up hope of having an honest, productive dialogue. So as I said before: if you want to continue this discussion, PM me. Otherwise, stew in your own irrationality and leave me alone. I have nothing to prove to someone who refuses to communicate like an adult.
Bluezee:
Do you plan on dropping those headers any time soon? You situation is a little more convenient than mine since you know how much power you lost from your headers, so I'm really interested to see if there's merit to the idea of a better ART Pipe + Stock Manifold combination. I mean, it makes logical sense. It would always be great to get back more power than you lost
You just don't stop. I've been nothing but rational and reasonable, and you do little more than make accusations and personal attacks in response. You're entitled to your opinion - even one which conveniently paints me as some lunatic fanboy despite facts to the contrary staring you directly in the face. I can only try to reason with you for so long before I give up hope of having an honest, productive dialogue. So as I said before: if you want to continue this discussion, PM me. Otherwise, stew in your own irrationality and leave me alone. I have nothing to prove to someone who refuses to communicate like an adult.
Bluezee:
Do you plan on dropping those headers any time soon? You situation is a little more convenient than mine since you know how much power you lost from your headers, so I'm really interested to see if there's merit to the idea of a better ART Pipe + Stock Manifold combination. I mean, it makes logical sense. It would always be great to get back more power than you lost
Last edited by onagao; 04-02-2010 at 06:55 AM.
04-02-2010, 07:36 AM
#49
With comments like that I can't take you seriously any more. Your post above crosses the line from objective questioning to insulting. Why are you insulting the integrity of people doing independent testing?
The whole point of independent dynos is so the public can see, discuss and define the performance. This thread and the other independent evaluations are about defining the performance and sound. This thread is another data point for everyone to reference to. No other manufacturer goes to this this extent to promote independent dyno testing and reviews. As you may have noticed, many manufacturers will simply make up fake dynos for a part and then completely avoid independent review, dynos or questioning. Motordyne has never shyed away from this. New part release has always been conducted with independent dynos and evaluations. How else can it be done more transparently than this? If I don't offer a discount for dynos, the independent dynos would be far fewer.
I offered you to do the same evaluation as everyone else here so its not like I don't make the same offer to questioners or skeptics. This is the same way independent peer review is done in the scientific community. Openly and transparently.
So far the independent reviews show 3 new and clearly identifiable characteristics.
1) Compared to test pipes, this first independent comparison shows a small gain at high RPM and a very large gain where test pipes normally lose a lot of power. The ART pipes don't sacrifice low end drivability like regular test pipes do.
2) The ART pipes are a lot quieter than regular test pipes and slightly quieter than HFC's. Many people would like to have the power of test pipes but don't want the super loudness of regular test pipes.
3) In this comparison, the ART pipes reduced drone. This is significant. This is the first upstream exhaust modification shown to reduce drone and make more power at the same time. - Most people don't like drone.
If this isn't enough to justify the cost for you, that's OK. Everybody will have different budgets and objectives. But finding out what it does is the point of having the independent dynos and reviews. For the public to know the details as seen, heard and measured by the public. It is also why I extended the offer to you.
The results of Bluzee's test are essentially identical to the results shown here:
https://my350z.com/forum/8154868-post93.html
Asking tough questions is good but insulting the integrity of people doing the independent tests is not. Do you think the independent reviewer in this link was biased because he received the same offer as everybody else?
https://my350z.com/forum/intake-exha...t-pipes-7.html
What ever they may be, the test results are the test results. They are being posted on this forum for everyone to see.
04-02-2010, 08:22 AM
#50
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Please try to keep this thread on topic. You guys are ruining a perfectly good informational thread. This will be the only warning and the next one will come paired with a nice little vacation time.
If you guys have ever read through Tony's threads or have met Tony in person, you would never think to question his integrity, his methods, etc. I'm not saying Tony's perfect, but his attention to detail, wealth of useful and applicable knowledge, and his desire to earnestly benefit our community through quality is top notch. Tony does the independent testing for a reason and he's proven to the community that he has nothing to hide. Let the independent dyno tests speak for themselves.
If you guys have ever read through Tony's threads or have met Tony in person, you would never think to question his integrity, his methods, etc. I'm not saying Tony's perfect, but his attention to detail, wealth of useful and applicable knowledge, and his desire to earnestly benefit our community through quality is top notch. Tony does the independent testing for a reason and he's proven to the community that he has nothing to hide. Let the independent dyno tests speak for themselves.
04-02-2010, 12:49 PM
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Ok...back on topic now. Tony, I wonder if the larger volume of the Crawford headers is the reason for the numbers not being as high as the ones with the stock manifolds. I saw you have also come out with a new exhaust piece, the Ti axle back pipes with the resonators. I know we would only be guessing, but would the extra resonators possibly compensate for the larger volume of the Crawford headers? Interesting idea huh?
04-02-2010, 01:17 PM
#52
I'm sure it is. In all the development testing, the closer the resonator was to the cylinder (with a minimum amount of volume) the better it works.
But as far as the resonators on the V2's are concerned, they have absolutely no effect up or down on the power curve. At the axleback section its only about sound characteristics. It is much too far from the engine for tuned resonance to have any effect.
But as far as the resonators on the V2's are concerned, they have absolutely no effect up or down on the power curve. At the axleback section its only about sound characteristics. It is much too far from the engine for tuned resonance to have any effect.
04-03-2010, 03:38 AM
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I'm sure it is. In all the development testing, the closer the resonator was to the cylinder (with a minimum amount of volume) the better it works.
But as far as the resonators on the V2's are concerned, they have absolutely no effect up or down on the power curve. At the axleback section its only about sound characteristics. It is much too far from the engine for tuned resonance to have any effect.
But as far as the resonators on the V2's are concerned, they have absolutely no effect up or down on the power curve. At the axleback section its only about sound characteristics. It is much too far from the engine for tuned resonance to have any effect.
04-05-2010, 12:19 PM
#54
Obviously these 2 pulls were not done the same
By starting the pull at a higher RPM you are just pre-loading the dyno longer.
I would not count anything under 2500rpms as real data. Now if both dynos pull were started at 1500 rpms, then yes it would be valid comparison. But maybe you have other charts as well that you based your comparisons off of.
By starting the pull at a higher RPM you are just pre-loading the dyno longer.
I would not count anything under 2500rpms as real data. Now if both dynos pull were started at 1500 rpms, then yes it would be valid comparison. But maybe you have other charts as well that you based your comparisons off of.
Last edited by str8dum1; 04-05-2010 at 12:23 PM.
04-06-2010, 05:32 AM
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04-06-2010, 08:19 PM
#57
Just ask them to email you the other files. Unless something changed you can download a viewer off Dynojets website.
You should alway get all the info not just a portion, this gives yourself a means to average the final figue better. Plus the graphs are fun to look at from time to time.
You should alway get all the info not just a portion, this gives yourself a means to average the final figue better. Plus the graphs are fun to look at from time to time.
Last edited by screener; 04-06-2010 at 08:22 PM.
04-07-2010, 06:21 AM
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Just ask them to email you the other files. Unless something changed you can download a viewer off Dynojets website.
You should alway get all the info not just a portion, this gives yourself a means to average the final figue better. Plus the graphs are fun to look at from time to time.
You should alway get all the info not just a portion, this gives yourself a means to average the final figue better. Plus the graphs are fun to look at from time to time.
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