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Only those who want to rev higher on a DE will see the advantages of the Kinetix Velocity. Reguardless of what you do with the OEM Plenum, if the bottleneck after the TB isn't addressed your torque will fall on its face after 5600ish rpm from my experience. The Kinetix helps to extend the torque curve farther to the right allowing more hi rpm power potential.
I switched from motordyne lower with huge spacer to the kinetix velocity on my all motor car and gained 4-5 mph at the track...
Really? That's impressive. Was this with the 3.5" pipe and 75mm t.b.? If so, then color me confused as AT said the Velocity is a bust.
I wonder if it pays off only under the circumstance of one having a built engine allowing for and utilizing a much higher rev limiter. I can imagine gaining top end in this scenario and obviously you have, but only this scenario, well, this and forced induction.
Interestingly enough, your current setup is this "franken-take" tall intake custom plenum, not the Velocity. I turned my v-plenum into somewhat of a mini version of it.
No, no general consensus.
""" Our testing has shown to add up to 16whp and 20wtq PEAK on top of tuned combinations with aftermarket intakes, with gains across the RPM range on a STOCK intake manifold with spacer (NO Kinetix)."""
Direct quote, straight from the horses mouth or in other words, Admin Tuning's website, and no, AT isn't referring to the V plenum.
Don't mean to **** on mr. renfro's parade. I'd love to use the Velocity but it's a looser compared to most other options naturally aspirated.
We're also looking at a dynojet chart here. It's 10% overzealous. I'd love it if this were the Velocity on a mustang dyno. I'd buy one tomorrow.
You are taking my description out of context.
I never said whether or not the Velocity is good or bad in this description. I only wrote this to say that the tests were done without a Kinetix manifold, because people had asked if the manifold was swapped in my original testing.
The Velocity itself gives up a couple peak horsepower in exchange for a broader peak area after peak on a STOCK cam DE. On a RevUp (larger cams + EVT) or a cammed DE or cammed RevUp, it will help moreso than a stock spaced manifold.
Really? That's impressive. Was this with the 3.5" pipe and 75mm t.b.? If so, then color me confused as AT said the Velocity is a bust.
I wonder if it pays off only under the circumstance of one having a built engine allowing for and utilizing a much higher rev limiter. I can imagine gaining top end in this scenario and obviously you have, but only this scenario, well, this and forced induction.
Interestingly enough, your current setup is this "franken-take" tall intake custom plenum, not the Velocity. I turned my v-plenum into somewhat of a mini version of it.
3.5" pipe and stock TB havnt tried it with larger TB on kinetix yet. and I switched out the custom tall intake to go back to the kinetix as the kinetix is faster .
Huh, well if that's the case then I apologize. I had an email reply from you Moncef that gave a different reason, but I can't find the damn thing. Figures. The reason I was given, the answer to this question regarding the Velocity, is what I've been writing above.
I'm certainly not implying you're being wishy-washy. Maybe its the way I asked the question? I have a way with words. Ha ha ha.
I decided to keep my 4" and have further modified it among other things regarding the intake, from the lower plenum to the filter. My tuner never did go out of bus. He just ignored me among others while he got a bunch of large projects out of the way and I finally heard back from him a month ago, so I'm gonna get him to tune my **** once again. Tomei headers are finally arriving this week.
I do owe you some $ Moncef, so please pm me some way to hook you up and sorry for the confusion. I do not want to be one of those guys spreading ********.
edit - just checked the date of the dyno and it's april 2017 which explains why I can't recover my deleted email to AT. Too f'n old.
3.5" pipe and stock TB havnt tried it with larger TB on kinetix yet. and I switched out the custom tall intake to go back to the kinetix as the kinetix is faster .
"The Velocity itself gives up a couple peak horsepower in exchange for a broader peak area after peak on a STOCK cam DE."
I'm inclined to think the Velocity wouldn't do me much if any good per the mustang dyno chart above and please consider it's awd, so don't laugh at the #'s too hard. Na, go ahead and laugh! Can't wait to see what this chart looks like with what's been done in the intake region and after the headers. I already have proof of my gains in acceleration prior to headers, but no dyno yet.
I have to say I'm a little exited to see the Velocity isn't the pos I thought it was. Another component with real potential to add to the arsenal once I get a build and cams.
Dark, you were right. Sorry about that bud. Kinda feeling like a dick right now.
Whether or not the Kinetix Velocity manifold will work for you is highly combination dependent based on the conditions I stated in my previous comment. I have Tomei headers on my G37 and they worked well for me.
This is nutz. I suppose my perspective on the Velocity was skewed by the multiple negative threads I've come across since I started modding the tank over a year ago. I don't recall ever seeing these dyno results before, but I was going to contact Kinetix and say "wtf guy, I thought this intake was trash for the n.a. crowd". The chart below is off the Kinetix site.
Now I'm really curious. Damn, and I thought I was maxed out on the intake side of things, short of a custom franken-take.
I need to find out if this performance is due to the neck having a larger inside diameter which I have a feeling is a big part of the reason. If so, I don't know that I'd benefit much if at all because of what I've done to the V-plenum. If theres more to it, I'm gonna have to pick this thing up sooner rather than later and I'll get a dyno comparison between my existing setup with the V-plenum and then with the Velocity. Nice thing about the V-plenum, and I could be mistaking but with n2o, should I get a backfire, the composite plenum will pop potentially saving something more vital.
Look up Sasha's car in SGmotorsports/OnpointDyno, his old red Z33 videos. He originally fabed up a custom upper plenum with a wider, more open neck after the TB and made good power past the red line.
Michael Gardner (2thpwr on here) has his old motor and setup with high compression, cams and LTHs, makes about 340whp. He has a few videos on YouTube as well.
Oh yeah, I've read about some of Sasha's work. Probably should read more.
I should get a reply from kinetix soon regarding the i.d. of the Velocity's neck from the t.b. to plenum chamber. I'm really curious about this aspect.
Here's a link to my thread that goes into what I've done to get what I think are some impressive acceleration improvements. About 1/3rd the way down. https://www.infinitiscene.com/thread....230572/page-6
I think 2 issues that are corrected in the Velocity compared to a stocker w/a spacer, without having seen or measured it, is the gasket between the upper and lower and the inside diameter of the neck. Just a guess.
So, the "charge tube" or as I call it, the neck, is near 3" i.d. My V-plenum was no where near that. Didn't notice this until I tried to rig a 75mm t.b. straight to it and it was then that I noticed the i.d. was smaller than the stock t.b.! I'm willing to bet the Velocity lower and upper are matched well and that the gasket does not over lap any part of any runner, unlike the oem design did but in my case, swapping to the Aramid fixed that f'n nonsense.
This email clears up my confusion as to why I found so many that wrote about how bad it sucked. Damn it, I think I'm gonna have to buy 1 now.
I hope it's appropriate putting someone's email reply up on a public forum without their consent?
" Hello Mike,
I get these concerns often based on what people come across on forums. Keep in mind that we have been manufacturing the intake for almost 15 years now! Originally it was called the SSV and about 4 years later we revised the intake and named it the Velocity Intake. The biggest differences being the shape of the plenum chamber and the length of the runners. The original SSV was not kind to NA cars because the runners were too short and the plenum chamber shape caused excess turbulence inside making it difficult to tune. When we redesigned it, we used special computer software to analyse the flow pattern inside and tuned the shape of the plenum chamber to maximize the balance of airflow to each runner. The result was a very well balanced intake that was easy to tune and dramatically increased the flow rate of the intake at high RPM.
To this date, we still get people sending us pictures of an old SSV intake they purchased used assuming it's the Velocity Intake. I think that is why on the forums you still see "The great debate" when it comes to whether or not our intake makes power on a NA car. There are a bunch of folks that think they have a Velocity Intake on their car when they actually have the SSV and they try running it without a tune. Again, even the new Velocity really should be tuned. Just sticking it on there running stock ECU setting, your only going to get very high RPM HP gains. If you want a much more balanced performance curve, you need to get a tune.
The question you have about the inside diameter of the "neck", I'm going to assume you are talking about the charge tube (throttle body flange to where it enters the plenum chamber tube). The OD of the tube is 3", so the ID would be 2.88".
Let me know if you have any other questions, but I think it will be a good addition to your build. If your car is not pretty much stock, I really can't tell you what RWHP you will see. The FX35 is not performance tuned from the factory like the 350Z's, so it's possible your performance gains might be much smaller un-tuned.
Jason
Kinetix Racing"
I think most of what I was going to reply has been covered. The Velocity gets a bad rap on N/A motors mainly due to unrealistic expectations (in my opinion). The Velocity does a phenomenal job holding power at higher rpms and on boosted applications. However, (most) DE/Revup owners do not take advantage of higher rpm ranges with things like aggressive degree cams etc, and then get disappointed when they don't see crazy gains. The manifold completely shifts the powerband and alters the way the car feels.
If you were gearing towards a strong, torque heavy midrange, I would likely recommend something like a set of 264 cams, a ported OEM plenum, and a spacer; all matched with something like an admin intake and NWP throttle body.
However, when I chose the Velocity, I had long term plans to rev close to 8k rpm and shift my power way to the right. Plus, I had and still have intentions to boost the car in the near future.
I would just say to manage your expectations with the Velocity. If it's a minimal bolt on car, it may not be the choice for you at the moment. If you have big long term plans for high revs and/or boost, it's a solid buy.
Yes, good advice and thanks for the reply Renfro.
The chart above is straight from Kinetix site with the Velocity on a bone stock Z. It's also on a Dynojet, so the #'s are a bit inflated but it shows the gain nonetheless. Assuming it's honest, and I have no reason to assume otherwise at this point, I think the shift to the right is a feeling more than a drag on the low to mid range due to the increase or should I say, lack of the notorious power drop off in the mid-5k rpm range. Up to the mid 5k range, everything's feeling pretty normal to average Joe 6 pack and his bone stock 350z but then the mid 5k comes and instead of the drop, it picks up steam. No loss.
Well looks like we settled this debate finally lol. I told you I wasn't crazy, I did a ton of research and finally I decided to get it, it's much easier to take off, weighs less and heat soaks less, even if it didn't gain anything in the current powerband it's all wins. BTW the NWP spacer tapers down to the same size as the velocity elbow.
Thought I'd copy and paste this from my thread as I may have inserted foot in mouth once again, though it seems many still believe that the Dynojet reads high.
"Here's a decent explanation from a guy from Berk. He writes mustang dyno's always read 12% low but they can all be manipulated to read high or low. And here I thought a mustang read 10-12% under, a dynojet 10-12% over, so a 20-24% swing. Apparently, the big swing is between a mustang and a dynapack. So, is it possible that the dynojet is the accurate make and that's why it's the most popular?"
" BerkTechnology
avatar41820_2.jpg
Location: Irvine, CA
Differences between dyno #'s: Dynojet, Dynapack, Mustang.
People seem a bit confused about the different types of dyno's and what numbers to expect out of them. So let's clear them up.
There are 3 types of chassis dyno's you'll run into in the USA. Dynojet, Dynapack, & Mustang. They all spit out slightly different HP/TQ numbers when you compare one brand to another (i.e. Dynojet vs Dynapack), but they are all 100% consistent if you stay on the same dyno every time. So if you are tracking your mods as you add them, go to the same shop every time.
95% of the shops in the USA are running one of these three dyno's:
1. Dynojet - most popular in the USA. Considered the "standard" here in the states since most shops utilize them. For our theoretical "car", the Dynojet will read 100 rwhp, & 100 ft/lbs of torque.
With this dyno you drive up to the rollers, they strap the car down, and do a full throttle pass in 3rd or 4th gear. The dyno will calculate the power based on how fast the car will spin the rollers. This is called an inertia based dyno.
For WOT power passes that you can compare to each other on the internet, Dynojet's are perfect. They're everywhere! But most do not have any sort of load simulating capability. Since 2005 more and more Dynojet's sold have their eddy current loading device. So you can ID them, Dynojets are typically red or black.
2. Mustang Dyno's - not as nearly as popular as the Dynojet's, but all performance shops that have Mustang dyno's DO have the capability to simulate load on the car to map ECU's. These are also great dyno's, are very accurate, simulate load very well, and are repeatable every time. They are also inertia based dyno's where you'll drive the car up on the rollers, strap the car down, and make a 3rd or 4th gear pass.
These dyno's will always read ~12% LOWER than a Dynojet, which is our standard here in the states (unless the shop has messed with the gearing settings in the computer). Because of this, lots of the internet folk don't like to use them. They come on the internet, share their results and everyone says "why didn't you make more power with mod XX". So our theoretical car will show 88rwhp on the Mustang dyno.
These dyno's will always be blue.
3. Dynapack - These are the red headed step children here in the states. Not as common as the Dynojet or Dynapack, but these are the standard in Japan. These are fundamentally COMPLETELY different that the inertia type dyno's.
With the Dynapack (my favorite), you remove the rear wheels, attach the hubs of the car to the "pods", and make your pass.
The load is simulated on the car via a hydraulic pump. Because these are effectively inertia-less, they will read HIGHER than the standard Dynojet numbers by 8-10%. That number will vary depending on how "fast" your dyno run lasts (sweep time), but as a rule of thumb, they'll read ~8-10% higher. So with this dyno our car will now read ~109rwhp on average.
The pods are always red, but these are easiest to ID. If they are taking off your wheels, it's a Dynapack!
And understand one thing when it comes to dyno graphs and product claims! Every dyno graph can be cheated by dishonest individuals/companies. All of them. So always take every dyno claim with a grain of salt. If they are cheating their tests, the truth eventually comes out (usually). Be a smart consumer! "
Looks like the Dynojet probably does read the most accurately. 280 hp x18% d.t. loss=50 50-280=230 which is where the bone stock Z started out on the chart below, done on a Dynojet. Newer chart on the Kintex site below. https://www.infinitiscene.com/attach...a3-jpg.514593/
I dont understand how the designers of the Velocity intake did not see any benefit in increasing the inner neck diameter from the stock 2.88 choke point. The whole point of this intake is to get more air into the engine which is what the DE is deficient at compared to the HR manifold.
Even if you get a huge throttle body and intake it will all bottle neck down to the Velocity's OEM spec.
No one has been able to produce a product that addresses this. I mean look at what Michael Gardner and Sasha have done with the DE intake. They fixed this neck issue. Fix this and you fix this eternal issue on the DE to make it a competent naturally aspirated engine after a quality tune. This is why the issue with spacers was beat to death. But no one has created a solution besides these people who went all custom.
03-11-2018, 10:16 PM
