yes it is and my first problem with a car. My wrangler and civic never went into the shop. Never!

 

Why would a dealership put up a fight, on ordering new tires?
They are not paying for them, hell they are make money by changeing the old for the new.. Just write up a bill for Nissan, thats all..

 

If Nissan doesn't approve new tires, the dealership might not be reimbursed if they got the tires locally or through some other means than from Nissan. Same thing goes for alignments. They do one free, then another that Nissan doesn't approve, they don't get reimbursed. Thats why many owners have to call NNA first to get an approval, only then will they do the work.

 

So I had a flash of clarity tonight as I watched my fiance back the Z out of the garage. The tires were dry, but the driveway was wet. As soon as she backed out of the door, she turned to full left lock. It was at this point that everything came together.

A few nights ago I was reading a post that referred to Enforcer's site at: http://www.lasercannon.com/Newz/feathering.htm . He has a few theories but pointed to a link here http://www.babcox.com/editorial/tr/tr129622.htm , which explains "Ackerman Angle. READ THIS ARTICLE, and come back to this posting.

Anyway, back to the revelation. The drivers front tire was closest to me and I noticed that the inside edge was dry as a bone while the rest of the tire was wet. I had her stop and went to look at the passenger side. Sure enough the outside was dry and the inside was wet. This led me to the conclusion that Enforcer is on the right track.

My Conclusion:
Somewhere between Toe, Camber, and Castor (Castor being the worst offender) Nissan has engineered a steering geometry that puts way too much force on the inside edge of the tire that is on the outside of the turn causing it to push/scuff.

I'll try to illustrate
Assume you're looking from above the car straight down while making a left turn.
You're tires would look like this.

| |------- | | <--- Rear Tires


\ \--------\ \ <--- Front Tires

Now keep in mind that due to Castor/Ackerman (at least I think) your tires also take on a large degree of Camber. That is, they lean into the turn. If you were looking from the front of the car they would look like this.

/ /-----------/ / <----- Tires

^
|
Lots of force here on inside edge

Sorry about the poor drawing but I hope it illustrates the point that we're screwed until Nissan makes the suspension adjustable or provides a replacement multi-link to rope in the castor to a less agressive setting which will distribute the load across the tire instead of the inside edge.

Take your car turn the wheels to full lock and look at it from head on. You'll be amazed at the geometry the Z has when its turning. Even better put a level against the wheel, then compare it to any other vehicle.

Also go back and look at the pictures everyone has posted of their feathered tires. If you imagine them in this scenario you should see that the angle of wear matches up to a tire that is being pushed across its inner edge while in a turn.

Thoughts? I know someone has an opinion. Does this seem correct to anyone else?

Please post!

 

Well stated Yourmomma.

 

This what ezchief and Grebmohr are seeing, too. I went back several pages of posts and suspension geometry keeps coming up as a root cause. Replacing the struts and maybe the bushings will help, but we may have to have an adjustable camber/caster plate to keep the fronts in line. My big question is: Are these problems showing up only on OE tires?

 

YourMomma , now , can you call my dealer and try to explain that to him ?

 

Not likely. I want to see the new suspension's settings and subframe? connecting them together. Any correction to a suspension geometry problem leaves Nissan wide open to a recall to fix the problem on previous cars to my mind.

 

My guess would be no. Rather it should happen to all types of tires in time.

I think its more likely to take longer given different tread design and compound, but I would bet that it eventually shows on non OEM tires. The real question is how many people have ONLY changed the tires and not seen the problem at 10,000 to 15,000 miles. Boomer you're one of the few people posting here that have only changed your tires. If I remember correctly you still have pretty low mileage < 5,000 miles. I also think as a majority we're not beating on our cars either.

DISCLAIMER: DO NOT TEST WHAT'S WRITTEN BELOW.

Another thought to consider. Some people have posted that they beat on their cars pretty hard, take 'em to the track etc, and don't see saw-toothing on their tires. If they're throwing their cars into turns hard enough maybe they're transferring the load further to the middle or outside of the tire instead of the inner edge. Or it may be possible that they're running higher than recommended pressure which would also move the contact patch to the center.

Maybe Nissan testing consisted of track speeds on the straights and 4 wheel drifts through the turns on tires at 45psi cold?!?

 

It is my opinion that NNA is pushing hard to NOT have the tires replaced. My dealer had no problem at all replacing my tires. Look at this way. Some dealers actually DO care about their customers. They will happily eat the cost of the tires any pay for them on their own dime, (NOT NNA's) to save a loyal customer, even if NNA is directing them to not replace tires.

 

I cannot clarify exactly how the car was driving, but it was definitly not right. I did not get a hard copy of the specs. I remember looking at the screen and the numbers were way off...

 

Good catch yourmomma. Something I did (accidentally) last night confirms in my mind what you are writing. Where I live is still being developed and it has some open streets. One in particular has a kidney bean like round about. I was going around this "bean" to the left so I was on the inside (right) lane with no traffic around. I get on it a little in second up to say 35-40. I take the sweeping right and move in the short sweeping left then back to the sharp sweeping right. On the last sharp right, I notice my inside "right" tire is not pointing in the right direction. Like it was delayed getting back to the right. THis is the second time I tried this and it only appears to happen in this 35 and under MPH range. Any faster and it appears the tires "load" up for the transition.

After this, Grebmohr's and yourmomma's post, I am a true believer that the suspension is the culprit. I swear now that I have felt this sensation in the front tires, I feel it more and more in my every day drive. It happens when quick, "low speed" transitions occur from left to right mostly in my case.

ANy one else get this sensation?

 

well I am getting screwed!

First: i am not the original owner
Second: i am at 15,000
third: I missed the 7500 mile service

Me: No kidding im not the Original owner that is why it took so long to notice for me! wasn't expecting it
Also, I noticed it slightly at 8,000 miles so the service has nothing to do with it.
and lastly, I don't care how many miles are on it it was like this from the factory and nissan should fix and replace it.

My solution - waiting for a call back from dealer today. If i get an answer that i don't want i am filing a lawsuit against Rosenthal Nissan and maybe try for a class action suit against NNA!

There are far to many of us for this to be such a hassle and the majority of us haven't noticed. like my step mother would of just bought new tires and thought it was normal! Like the guy at safeway that i checked (he wasn't around) mostlikely didn't know he had a problem. NNA says there aren't enough complaints about this to do anything about it. And since most people on this board are to busy to do anything about it I am! Even though i average 5 hrs of sleep a night and the rest of the time i am working 7 days a week, i am going to find the time!

who's with me!

 

i think a lot of ppl have given some thought to a class action lawsuit...i have myself. but i'm sad to admit that i don't have that much time & resources to pull such a thing off myself, and i'm sure a lot of ppl are thinking the same. only if someone could organize this, i'm sure a lot of ppl will be willing to join in.

 

i think konverter was talking about a potential class action lawsuit...not sure if he decided to pursue that path or not though. you might want to talk to him

 

www.BigClassAction.com

The site told me to get others to file as well. so take 10 minutes out of your day and let them know about this problem. what i wrote:

Front suspension/allignment on first run Nissan 2003 350Z was incorrect from factory. Causes severe cupping and feathering on front tires. This is a well known occurance yet the only TSB by nissan is to realign and cross rotate the tires. Then the problem reoccurs and they do nothing more. Some dealers replace tires but not all. Alignment is warrentied at 12,000 or 1 yr. but problem doesn't show until 8000 and gets noticibly loud at about 12,000. So we are stuck buying new tires at about 600 for 2 every 3-6 months due to a factory defect. We want a perminant fix!

Join in on the fun! I told you I was serious!

I also contacted StueveHelderSiegel and am waiting for a call back, their at lunch.

Im going to keep looking for more lawyrers as well. we will see!

 

Just got my call back from rosenthal said i need to pay for alignment and 80% of the tires. I am getting a lawyer if not for class action for rosenthal alone. this is pure BS!!!!!!!!

 

That's why I did the lookup numbers on the new Maxima, figuring if it was doing really well sales-wise it may hurt the attention given to the Z's issues.
When they sell almost the same number of Max's in one month as all Aug-Dec 2002 sales of '03 350Z's, you can figure where the Dealers are focused. Especially when you consider the price of the Maxima effectively has climbed into Z territory (I see new Max's with higher sticker than my 2003 350z Base).

 

My last trip to the track did a nice job of evening out the wear on the "swapped" fronts, melting the now-outside cupping right down The tires also "rolled beads" of rubber on the edge of the tread blocks - a guy with a strong French accent tried to explain that wear had something to do with messed-up caster, no idea how if at all that issue would be related - camber, maybe, caster, not sure...so I should jack the presure up from 32-33 cold and try again?

 

I am definitely NOT beating on my tires. I now have 7600+ miles on it. No sign on cupping or any abnormal tire wear. You and others do seem to be correct and I believe I will have the problem re-occur maybe as high as 12-15,000 miles. With tires rated at 400 UTOG, that is simply not acceptable for any car, unless there is something wrong with the alignment or suspension geometry, IMHO.

I am going ahead with my purchase of the Konis and maybe the poly bushings, but I will not completely rebuild my suspension at my own expense. I can justify the struts and bushings as upgrades, but not much else. I consider adjustable camber/caster plates as rebuilding and Nissan should foot the bill if they become necessary.

Early '90s Camrys had a problem similar to this and Toyota paid for camber kits to fix the problem on cars that didn't have an upgraded suspension. I expect no less from Nissan and I don't care how much it costs them. Their new financial report on their earnings in the past fiscal year is ample proof they could fix our problem w/o hurting their bottom line much at all, which includes the huge vehicle recall they are doing. Their figures include the recall as part of their expenses and they've still made big profits.