4.15L NA VQ Engine Build with Rebello and Zcargarge
09-30-2009, 12:42 PM
#61
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (564)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 19,266
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
I've never found a single VQ35 that wanted to be 13.2-13.5 NA...they all want to be richer than that. High 12's on 93 octane is what I find in my experience with these engines on a variety of builds I've been involved with, probably a bit lower than that on 91. I know on my own, 12.8-12.9 was it's sweet spot, using an Innovate wideband, on my UTEC. Not sure what the current setup will yield but I expect it wants to be in a similar range. It can vary though, depending on what wideband is being used, where it's located, whether the car has test pipes or cats, etc, the ecu being used. Too many variables.
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 09-30-2009 at 12:48 PM.
09-30-2009, 01:47 PM
#62
This really should not be hard for anyone to understand - it's been posted many, many times. The Cosworth rewards rpm and rewards those with cams, which is where the stock plenum (with or without a spacer) just runs out of steam. The G35 referenced on driver has no cams, no built bottom end (thus can't rev). Why he thought he would see a net gain from a plenum that is designed with those 2 things primarily in mind is beyond me. He also "lost" mpg when he installed it without retuning. Of course mpg is going to suffer. He goes on to say as soon as he uploaded the Osirus flash, the mpg came back. MPG is totally tune related and driver related.
As for manifold performance, are there any comparative dynos or objective data on such an engine build that show these rewards?
I know you say its been posted many, many times but I havn't really seen anything on it. Did you post dynos of it on your engine?
Links?
Last edited by Hydrazine; 09-30-2009 at 01:50 PM.
09-30-2009, 01:56 PM
#63
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (564)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 19,266
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
Dyno's of various people's has been posted before - every setup that had a built motor that actually rev'd, showed substantial gains in the upper rpm compared to stock and compared to a spacer. The flow bench shows this as well, the difference is significant vs stock non revup or revup. I'm sure if you ask the 2 shops that have the most experience with these setups, Injected and Forged, they will confirm it with me.
My updates are posted in my build thread - have not had any time to dyno it, the car wasn't cooperating on the day we had it planned and I have not gotten around to it yet, but we will soon
My updates are posted in my build thread - have not had any time to dyno it, the car wasn't cooperating on the day we had it planned and I have not gotten around to it yet, but we will soon
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 09-30-2009 at 01:57 PM.
09-30-2009, 02:05 PM
#64
Links to any objective data or dynos? Its been posted many times right?
EDIT: You put something this significantly different on your car and you havn't had time to dyno it? How long has it been on your car?
EDIT: You put something this significantly different on your car and you havn't had time to dyno it? How long has it been on your car?
Last edited by Hydrazine; 09-30-2009 at 02:06 PM.
09-30-2009, 02:08 PM
#65
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (564)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 19,266
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
I am sure you can search for them in the FI section, that is where they have been so far. Very few have an NA setup that justifies such a manifold as very few of us are revving beyond stock levels
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 09-30-2009 at 02:10 PM.
09-30-2009, 07:26 PM
#66
OH... so you don't really know (or wont say) what it does on such an NA build and you were just talking out your azz again?
All your talk of "it's been posted many, many times" isn't really, quite, so true?
Why refute what I said and make reference to "many, many posts" that don't really exist?
Your pictures of your Cosworth installed on your car show it in a well used condition.... but you never dynod it on your own dyno?
OK.
Dood... I don't care what you do, say or think. Just don't randomly refute me on a technical level unless you are sure about what you are proposing. And for sure, dont make reference to posts that dont' exist.
If you know of many, many posts of high reving NA builds with cams that support your point, link them. This really should not be hard to understand.
All your talk of "it's been posted many, many times" isn't really, quite, so true?
Why refute what I said and make reference to "many, many posts" that don't really exist?
Your pictures of your Cosworth installed on your car show it in a well used condition.... but you never dynod it on your own dyno?
OK.
Dood... I don't care what you do, say or think. Just don't randomly refute me on a technical level unless you are sure about what you are proposing. And for sure, dont make reference to posts that dont' exist.
If you know of many, many posts of high reving NA builds with cams that support your point, link them. This really should not be hard to understand.
Last edited by Hydrazine; 09-30-2009 at 09:52 PM.
The following users liked this post:
onevq35de (11-24-2017)
09-30-2009, 09:30 PM
#67
I have seen only a total of five truly NA pre/post dynos (including those from cosworth), some tuned and others not. None of them yielded significant gains or losses under the stock redline. Stupid me for selling the spacer/mrev2 before I got the dyno. This could have removed a lot of unknowns.
10-01-2009, 04:50 AM
#68
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (564)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 19,266
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
I don't know why you're all hostile Tony, there is no need for it.
Dyno's of the Cosworth have been posted as I said, in the FI section by well respected shops. Did I ever say they were posted on many NA builds? No, I didn't. If you took that from my posts, then I apologize for not communicating that clearly enough. I used the FI example, just as you did, because so far, that is where most of the results have been posted.
I don't have a dyno, so no, I have not dyno'd mine. Hopefully soon.
My plenum was purchased on an exchange basis from a well known member of the VQ community, who wanted a factory Cosworth polished one, which we had in stock. I took his, and gave him credit towards purchase of the factory Cosworth polished one. That is why mine seems used...because it was. No, I have not had any time to dyno my car because I have other priorities. Per our blog, and as I think I posted in my build thread, right now the car is just street tuned and that is how it will remain until I have the time to get it on the dyno and finish the tuning up. I've been doing alot of other things with the car, unrelated to the engine, that have taken up alot of time figuring them out (namely my cluster and the new rear), so right now I am just happy to have the car fully running and driveable, since I lived without it for nearly a year. The scrapped ITB project took up alot of time and resources, and rendered the car useless from December of '08 when I started taking everything apart, till just a few weeks ago. I am eager to see what my setup does, but at the same time, I am happy just enjoying it right now.
Dyno's of the Cosworth have been posted as I said, in the FI section by well respected shops. Did I ever say they were posted on many NA builds? No, I didn't. If you took that from my posts, then I apologize for not communicating that clearly enough. I used the FI example, just as you did, because so far, that is where most of the results have been posted.
I don't have a dyno, so no, I have not dyno'd mine. Hopefully soon.
My plenum was purchased on an exchange basis from a well known member of the VQ community, who wanted a factory Cosworth polished one, which we had in stock. I took his, and gave him credit towards purchase of the factory Cosworth polished one. That is why mine seems used...because it was. No, I have not had any time to dyno my car because I have other priorities. Per our blog, and as I think I posted in my build thread, right now the car is just street tuned and that is how it will remain until I have the time to get it on the dyno and finish the tuning up. I've been doing alot of other things with the car, unrelated to the engine, that have taken up alot of time figuring them out (namely my cluster and the new rear), so right now I am just happy to have the car fully running and driveable, since I lived without it for nearly a year. The scrapped ITB project took up alot of time and resources, and rendered the car useless from December of '08 when I started taking everything apart, till just a few weeks ago. I am eager to see what my setup does, but at the same time, I am happy just enjoying it right now.
10-01-2009, 06:56 AM
#69
The Cosworth rewards rpm and rewards those with cams, which is where the stock plenum (with or without a spacer) just runs out of steam...The G35 referenced on driver has no cams, no built bottom end (thus can't rev). Why he thought he would see a net gain from a plenum that is designed with those 2 things primarily in mind is beyond me.
Jonny's and Gabe's cars are NA. And you throw your arrogance at Jonnylaw for his NA dyno results. You write about Jonnylaw as if he was stupid to expect net gains from his Cosworth. Does putting down Jonnylaw make you feel better about yourself?
I happen to respect Gabe and Jonny for their pioneering efforts.
I encourage a good debate. We all learn from it.
Just keep it technically straight and keep your arrogant comments out of it.
.
The following users liked this post:
onevq35de (11-24-2017)
10-01-2009, 07:51 AM
#70
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (564)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 19,266
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
It wasn't intended to be patronizing, just to the point.
I glanced quickly at the g35 forum post - I guess too quickly. I noticed his signature said he had 400whp, so I made the supposition (my mistake) that the thread reflected his current setup which I think is supercharged. However, it doesn't change my opinion. I didn't call johynnylaw stupid, or even mean to suggest he was. I don't know him at all. I simply was stating that if he expected a gain on an otherwise stock block/stock head engine, that was an unrealistic expectation. I have said that before in other Cosworth discussions. I think that's a far cry from calling someone stupid. I have posted several times in the past that on an otherwise stock car, with stock cams, and no significant increase in rpm, the Cosworth is not the way to go from a power standpoint. I'm not wavering from that here at all. On a car with the ability to rev and with cams, it has been posted, in the FI section at least, that the Cosworth outshines any stock based setup, spacer, non spacer. Hopefully that translates into a built NA car too - we'll see.
I only disagree with you with respect to 1cockyZ's car - I think he would see a meaningful gain with a Cosworth vs his current setup. My builder spent alot of time with the stock revup and non revup plenums before selecting the non revup for my own car back in early '07. At the time, several people suggested I would have realized better power from swapping to a revup plenum, but our info told us differently. Based on that info and what he saw when I sent him the Cosworth (prior to it going on my car) he tells me I should see a good gain once again, particularly in the upper rpm ranges. He was extremely pleased with it after playing around with it on the bench. Since he is intimately familiar with my engine and I trust him without question, it's now on my car. I picked the Cosworth because I needed something to get the car running again. I had already gotten rid of my previous setup because I thought I would have ITB's, and the opportunity presented itself to help a customer, and help myself at the same time, so I went for it.
Gabe - best of luck with the build, I am sure it will be a monster
I glanced quickly at the g35 forum post - I guess too quickly. I noticed his signature said he had 400whp, so I made the supposition (my mistake) that the thread reflected his current setup which I think is supercharged. However, it doesn't change my opinion. I didn't call johynnylaw stupid, or even mean to suggest he was. I don't know him at all. I simply was stating that if he expected a gain on an otherwise stock block/stock head engine, that was an unrealistic expectation. I have said that before in other Cosworth discussions. I think that's a far cry from calling someone stupid. I have posted several times in the past that on an otherwise stock car, with stock cams, and no significant increase in rpm, the Cosworth is not the way to go from a power standpoint. I'm not wavering from that here at all. On a car with the ability to rev and with cams, it has been posted, in the FI section at least, that the Cosworth outshines any stock based setup, spacer, non spacer. Hopefully that translates into a built NA car too - we'll see.
I only disagree with you with respect to 1cockyZ's car - I think he would see a meaningful gain with a Cosworth vs his current setup. My builder spent alot of time with the stock revup and non revup plenums before selecting the non revup for my own car back in early '07. At the time, several people suggested I would have realized better power from swapping to a revup plenum, but our info told us differently. Based on that info and what he saw when I sent him the Cosworth (prior to it going on my car) he tells me I should see a good gain once again, particularly in the upper rpm ranges. He was extremely pleased with it after playing around with it on the bench. Since he is intimately familiar with my engine and I trust him without question, it's now on my car. I picked the Cosworth because I needed something to get the car running again. I had already gotten rid of my previous setup because I thought I would have ITB's, and the opportunity presented itself to help a customer, and help myself at the same time, so I went for it.
Gabe - best of luck with the build, I am sure it will be a monster
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 10-01-2009 at 07:54 AM.
10-01-2009, 04:13 PM
#72
Haha...you are joking right 
Thanks. I hope that everything will go nice and smooth.
This should be a good test. I'll ask Zcar to perform this since they are very interested on the outcome of the Cosworth vs stock plenum debate.
This should be a good test. I'll ask Zcar to perform this since they are very interested on the outcome of the Cosworth vs stock plenum debate.
Last edited by gabe3d; 10-01-2009 at 04:15 PM.
10-14-2009, 03:08 PM
#74
Didn't realize I accidentally removed my comments on the post above.
The red is the cosworth and the blue is my prior plenum configuration. The test conditions for the previous numbers I stated were negatively affected by the test conditions, hence the lower numbers and leanness. This time around the cosworth run was on conditions that would be in favor of it, but the results speaks for themselves. Perhaps with a more elaborate tune the cosworth can achieve better power, but as of now the only upside appears to be at the really tail end where the car seems to no longer fall off (perhaps on run 31 the operator might have let off the throttle, i'll have to see my other runs to be sure).
The engine will still proceed with building around the cosworth but another test will be done after completion. Turning the table around this time by swapping out the plenum and see the results, should turn out very interesting.
The red is the cosworth and the blue is my prior plenum configuration. The test conditions for the previous numbers I stated were negatively affected by the test conditions, hence the lower numbers and leanness. This time around the cosworth run was on conditions that would be in favor of it, but the results speaks for themselves. Perhaps with a more elaborate tune the cosworth can achieve better power, but as of now the only upside appears to be at the really tail end where the car seems to no longer fall off (perhaps on run 31 the operator might have let off the throttle, i'll have to see my other runs to be sure).
The engine will still proceed with building around the cosworth but another test will be done after completion. Turning the table around this time by swapping out the plenum and see the results, should turn out very interesting.
10-15-2009, 07:17 PM
#76
Z + Rear Seat
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St.Pete,FL
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I find it very interesting... especially the Cosworth performance issue.
I have an NA engine build that I was sure would benefit from a Cosworth plenum. I have gone through several iterations of engine management, tuners and plenums. Unfortunately, differences in Tuners (original shop went out of business), dynos, weather and many other things have made some of my dyno data hard to interpret correctly... at least it is hard for me to interpret correctly. I don't want to load Gabe's thread down with stuff on my car, but you can read about it in my engine building thread.
I have had very similar results to yours after adding a Cosworth plenum. I have fairly large cams (in retrospect, possibly too large) that I have been trying to make high RPM power with. My engine will turn 8,000 rpm and indeed we have done it several times on the dyno. I originally had a rev-up lower plenum (I thought it would be better for my engine because I wanted to turn high RPM) and a Crawford upper plenum. With the Crawford and rev-up plenums my engine always made maximum power in the 7,500 rpm range... regardless of the weather or dyno type.
In talking to Jim Wolf, he originally thought I would need to turn the engine more to make better power with his C8R cams. Sounded like I was a perfect candidate for a Cosworth plenum! I installed a Cosworth plenum, 3" MAF tube, and a JWT Pop Charger. Then I had my car tuned again by the same Tuner on the same dyno. As always, I expected to make more power. My car made roughly the same amount of power, but the power dropped off at 7,000 rpm instead of 7.500. Installing a Cosworth plenum dropped my peak power range by 500 rpm.
I couldn't understand why my engine showed the exact opposite characteristics for what the Cosworth plenum is known for. Seeing Gabes results makes me understand a bit more. Thanks for posting your results, Gabe.
I have an NA engine build that I was sure would benefit from a Cosworth plenum. I have gone through several iterations of engine management, tuners and plenums. Unfortunately, differences in Tuners (original shop went out of business), dynos, weather and many other things have made some of my dyno data hard to interpret correctly... at least it is hard for me to interpret correctly. I don't want to load Gabe's thread down with stuff on my car, but you can read about it in my engine building thread.
I have had very similar results to yours after adding a Cosworth plenum. I have fairly large cams (in retrospect, possibly too large) that I have been trying to make high RPM power with. My engine will turn 8,000 rpm and indeed we have done it several times on the dyno. I originally had a rev-up lower plenum (I thought it would be better for my engine because I wanted to turn high RPM) and a Crawford upper plenum. With the Crawford and rev-up plenums my engine always made maximum power in the 7,500 rpm range... regardless of the weather or dyno type.
In talking to Jim Wolf, he originally thought I would need to turn the engine more to make better power with his C8R cams. Sounded like I was a perfect candidate for a Cosworth plenum! I installed a Cosworth plenum, 3" MAF tube, and a JWT Pop Charger. Then I had my car tuned again by the same Tuner on the same dyno. As always, I expected to make more power. My car made roughly the same amount of power, but the power dropped off at 7,000 rpm instead of 7.500. Installing a Cosworth plenum dropped my peak power range by 500 rpm.
I couldn't understand why my engine showed the exact opposite characteristics for what the Cosworth plenum is known for. Seeing Gabes results makes me understand a bit more. Thanks for posting your results, Gabe.
10-16-2009, 12:20 AM
#77
Yeah doesn't look too hot for them. When my car is back I'll have a more detailed test of different plenum testing to see which will be the best. I'll make a formal post for this so that everyone can benefit.
Definitely the Cosworth is an interesting item. For the price and the reputation of the company, there has to be something special about this plenum. I'm a little confused on it and will hope the upcoming test will shed some more light on it. I'm interested to see what Rebello thinks about the plenum when he plays around with it. If i get anything interesting from him I'll let everyone know.
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I find it very interesting... especially the Cosworth performance issue.
I have an NA engine build that I was sure would benefit from a Cosworth plenum. I have gone through several iterations of engine management, tuners and plenums. Unfortunately, differences in Tuners (original shop went out of business), dynos, weather and many other things have made some of my dyno data hard to interpret correctly... at least it is hard for me to interpret correctly. I don't want to load Gabe's thread down with stuff on my car, but you can read about it in my engine building thread.
I have had very similar results to yours after adding a Cosworth plenum. I have fairly large cams (in retrospect, possibly too large) that I have been trying to make high RPM power with. My engine will turn 8,000 rpm and indeed we have done it several times on the dyno. I originally had a rev-up lower plenum (I thought it would be better for my engine because I wanted to turn high RPM) and a Crawford upper plenum. With the Crawford and rev-up plenums my engine always made maximum power in the 7,500 rpm range... regardless of the weather or dyno type.
In talking to Jim Wolf, he originally thought I would need to turn the engine more to make better power with his C8R cams. Sounded like I was a perfect candidate for a Cosworth plenum! I installed a Cosworth plenum, 3" MAF tube, and a JWT Pop Charger. Then I had my car tuned again by the same Tuner on the same dyno. As always, I expected to make more power. My car made roughly the same amount of power, but the power dropped off at 7,000 rpm instead of 7.500. Installing a Cosworth plenum dropped my peak power range by 500 rpm.
I couldn't understand why my engine showed the exact opposite characteristics for what the Cosworth plenum is known for. Seeing Gabes results makes me understand a bit more. Thanks for posting your results, Gabe.
I have an NA engine build that I was sure would benefit from a Cosworth plenum. I have gone through several iterations of engine management, tuners and plenums. Unfortunately, differences in Tuners (original shop went out of business), dynos, weather and many other things have made some of my dyno data hard to interpret correctly... at least it is hard for me to interpret correctly. I don't want to load Gabe's thread down with stuff on my car, but you can read about it in my engine building thread.
I have had very similar results to yours after adding a Cosworth plenum. I have fairly large cams (in retrospect, possibly too large) that I have been trying to make high RPM power with. My engine will turn 8,000 rpm and indeed we have done it several times on the dyno. I originally had a rev-up lower plenum (I thought it would be better for my engine because I wanted to turn high RPM) and a Crawford upper plenum. With the Crawford and rev-up plenums my engine always made maximum power in the 7,500 rpm range... regardless of the weather or dyno type.
In talking to Jim Wolf, he originally thought I would need to turn the engine more to make better power with his C8R cams. Sounded like I was a perfect candidate for a Cosworth plenum! I installed a Cosworth plenum, 3" MAF tube, and a JWT Pop Charger. Then I had my car tuned again by the same Tuner on the same dyno. As always, I expected to make more power. My car made roughly the same amount of power, but the power dropped off at 7,000 rpm instead of 7.500. Installing a Cosworth plenum dropped my peak power range by 500 rpm.
I couldn't understand why my engine showed the exact opposite characteristics for what the Cosworth plenum is known for. Seeing Gabes results makes me understand a bit more. Thanks for posting your results, Gabe.
11-05-2009, 11:48 AM
#78
Hopefully your car puts down more than these guys he has head work and everything on a 4.15. I think his mod list is on their website.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cioKZrRTz9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cioKZrRTz9E
11-11-2009, 04:55 PM
#79
^ Yeah, allmotorsedan pointed us out to that shop and video. He was able to get in touch with the owner but wasn't able to get detailed specs, nonetheless it's still good information. Whether my car puts out less or more power compared to his is impossible to compare since there are so many variables involved, nonetheless I'm sure i'll be happy with the gains I'll get over my current power.
But here are some pics I got from Zcar and Rebello, nothing special but just fun to look at.
1. Engine pulled out
2. Headwork
Last week I was over in Yokohama for work and passed by the Nissan Headquarter Gallery. Check it out. They had the 370Nismo and 40th there.
But here are some pics I got from Zcar and Rebello, nothing special but just fun to look at.
1. Engine pulled out
2. Headwork
Last week I was over in Yokohama for work and passed by the Nissan Headquarter Gallery. Check it out. They had the 370Nismo and 40th there.
Last edited by gabe3d; 11-11-2009 at 04:56 PM.
