Jzurita's Build "Nightmare that became a dream" 590whp 93 octane
11-07-2009, 04:52 PM
#802
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apologies also need to be made to customers out there whose cars have shoddy work done to them.
TBH, I never spoke about my issues because I saw another thread where a customer of PF was getting bashed for complaining. I headed a lot of warnings from people but, on the same token saw a lot of people praising and standing behind PF and JT, so I decided to send him my car. I am not complaining I made a decision to send him my car and now I am dealing with multiple issues relating to a poor installation and a really shitty tune.
Had I known what I know now I would not have sent my car to PF. People are entitled to post up facts about their experience without prejudice so others who visit the boards can make up thier own minds about dealing with a certain shop or parts, etc.
TBH, I never spoke about my issues because I saw another thread where a customer of PF was getting bashed for complaining. I headed a lot of warnings from people but, on the same token saw a lot of people praising and standing behind PF and JT, so I decided to send him my car. I am not complaining I made a decision to send him my car and now I am dealing with multiple issues relating to a poor installation and a really shitty tune.
Had I known what I know now I would not have sent my car to PF. People are entitled to post up facts about their experience without prejudice so others who visit the boards can make up thier own minds about dealing with a certain shop or parts, etc.
Like Terry said.....provide the proof of any wrong doing
11-07-2009, 06:11 PM
#803
The second hurdle is that the shop suspected of being at fault usually wants to be the shop doing the inspection/teardown so they can cover up any issue they find by either stating they could not determine the cause or that it simply wasn't their fault and hp tuning has no warranty.
The truth is more often than not very hard to find in these situations. I'm not speaking to this particular case just the nature of finding fault in these situations in general. The reason we go to these shops i nthe first place is that the individual generally lacks the knowledge to do the work in the first place.
I know I could never positively identify the cause of failure in any of my motors. But I had very very very strong indications of what went wrong, but never a definitive answer.
I like the direction this thread is taking this issue. It will fascilitate finding the truth if in fact it can be found.
Last edited by JETPILOT; 11-07-2009 at 06:12 PM.
11-08-2009, 12:38 AM
#804
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For this engine build I went with a local machine shop who does top noth work. 2 guys touched my motor. The owner and another machinist. I had 2 previous motors built by GTM becasue of the GTM nuthuggers. All the wasted time and money on shipping the block and waiting when it all could have been done locally. Doing business face to face has it's benefits. Being handed a build sheet for you motor when it's completed with all the bearing clearances is a nice thing.
Hope this situation gets resolved soon as it seems another VQ family member is going to be lost if not already....
11-08-2009, 04:56 AM
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How does being a vendor on this forum have anything to do with the quality of work you receive from a shop. If I learned one thing from this experiance the next time I spend $20,000 it well be based on a shops ability ,past performance,and who at that shop is putting their hands on my motor.
And I don"t give a **** if they are a vendor or not jeremy was a vendor and so were a bunch of other f--k ups that cost members on the forum lots of money and tears .
And I don"t give a **** if they are a vendor or not jeremy was a vendor and so were a bunch of other f--k ups that cost members on the forum lots of money and tears .
11-08-2009, 08:23 AM
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It's so hard to prove wrong doing becasue of many factors. One factor is the forensics involved with determinming what happened. First it need to be done by a third party who is not involved in any way with the suspected fault. Most peopel don't have the money to pay for the forensic research or know of any individual qualified to carry out such an investigation. The at is a huge hurdle in and of itself.
The second hurdle is that the shop suspected of being at fault usually wants to be the shop doing the inspection/teardown so they can cover up any issue they find by either stating they could not determine the cause or that it simply wasn't their fault and hp tuning has no warranty.
The truth is more often than not very hard to find in these situations. I'm not speaking to this particular case just the nature of finding fault in these situations in general. The reason we go to these shops i nthe first place is that the individual generally lacks the knowledge to do the work in the first place.
I know I could never positively identify the cause of failure in any of my motors. But I had very very very strong indications of what went wrong, but never a definitive answer.
I like the direction this thread is taking this issue. It will fascilitate finding the truth if in fact it can be found.
The second hurdle is that the shop suspected of being at fault usually wants to be the shop doing the inspection/teardown so they can cover up any issue they find by either stating they could not determine the cause or that it simply wasn't their fault and hp tuning has no warranty.
The truth is more often than not very hard to find in these situations. I'm not speaking to this particular case just the nature of finding fault in these situations in general. The reason we go to these shops i nthe first place is that the individual generally lacks the knowledge to do the work in the first place.
I know I could never positively identify the cause of failure in any of my motors. But I had very very very strong indications of what went wrong, but never a definitive answer.
I like the direction this thread is taking this issue. It will fascilitate finding the truth if in fact it can be found.
How does being a vendor on this forum have anything to do with the quality of work you receive from a shop. If I learned one thing from this experiance the next time I spend $20,000 it well be based on a shops ability ,past performance,and who at that shop is putting their hands on my motor.
And I don"t give a **** if they are a vendor or not jeremy was a vendor and so were a bunch of other f--k ups that cost members on the forum lots of money and tears .
And I don"t give a **** if they are a vendor or not jeremy was a vendor and so were a bunch of other f--k ups that cost members on the forum lots of money and tears .
Its an insult to paying vendors on here for you to keep plugging that shop. If you wish to go to his shop...I wish you the best of luck....He does not support this community...so I would not care if he is the best or worst out there...I would not use his shop...
I have never said that the vendors on here are the best or worst....or we have to use one of their shops...I am saying that shop has the opportunity to become a part of this ...but he chose not to.....
A paying vendor has alot to lose if he screws over a customer....it wont matter to a none vendor
Last edited by XKR; 11-08-2009 at 08:28 AM.
11-08-2009, 10:44 AM
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Let me make you understand I am not plugging anybody, I am a vendor and support this community. I used a vendor from here and got screwed,along with many others so what difference does that make, as long as the shop you are recommending does good work. I myself am out 20 grand,and I don't even know how much Zurita is out. If you want to do something, maybe a fund could be set up and maintained by the forum paid for out of the vendors' monthly dues so that when people get screwed using a forum vendor there is a benefit, or at least an impartial investigation.
But no, instead a bunch of people get on here and bash the hell out them and hope they fix their wrongs. When I tried to let people know about J T everyone bashed me . And don't get me wrong or try to make this something its not, I am by no means bashing this forum; it is a wealth of information and there are many outstanding vendors here that stand behind their work 100 percent. It just seems that some people have to voice their opinion a little too often; even when they no idea what's going on.
I thought one of the purposes of the forum was to share information, both positive and negative, and I was unaware of any exclusions. And as far as Vinny, I will say again he builds great motors, you get what you pay for ,and they don't break down, so if someone wants to use him, that's their business, and if I can help someone NOT get screwed, that's good for both of us. There are a lot of shops I would recommend, some forum members, and some not.
But no, instead a bunch of people get on here and bash the hell out them and hope they fix their wrongs. When I tried to let people know about J T everyone bashed me . And don't get me wrong or try to make this something its not, I am by no means bashing this forum; it is a wealth of information and there are many outstanding vendors here that stand behind their work 100 percent. It just seems that some people have to voice their opinion a little too often; even when they no idea what's going on.
I thought one of the purposes of the forum was to share information, both positive and negative, and I was unaware of any exclusions. And as far as Vinny, I will say again he builds great motors, you get what you pay for ,and they don't break down, so if someone wants to use him, that's their business, and if I can help someone NOT get screwed, that's good for both of us. There are a lot of shops I would recommend, some forum members, and some not.
11-08-2009, 08:28 PM
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you kill me man!btwy: i say give ttfort a chance,he's says my opinions logically formulated will be valued and not deleted as long as i don't call anyone an @@@@@@@ (add expletive)........works for me.Considering how the the "puddle of aids" era worked out,it might be an improvement.
11-09-2009, 08:41 AM
#812
my two comments:
- the main problem with 'people posting their experiences', especially negative ones, is that too often it's laced with emotions. On the internet that leads to flame wars. Half the time, no one even disputes the issue, it's all about how the message is delivered.
Of course, it's hard to stay objective when you just saw 10, 20 thousand dollars wash away.
- I have no idea where the shift occurred in this community, or if it is a wider-spread issue, to no longer use machine shops to build motors. Coming from the domestic world sortof, that was the route everyone went. You had a machinist machine and spec the motor, you got it balanced and blueprinted... all specs documented. Then somewhere along, we got mail order engines, and we started asking of our tuners that they also invest a lot of money so they are able to do everything 'in house'. and everything was based on the brands we were buying and not the build methodology used (loose/tight piston clearances for example).
Granted, there were issues with 'who is responsible' when there was a failure... even when shops supposedly farmed out the machine work themselves (like AAM claimed, and I think JT, and I think Julian at one point).
- the main problem with 'people posting their experiences', especially negative ones, is that too often it's laced with emotions. On the internet that leads to flame wars. Half the time, no one even disputes the issue, it's all about how the message is delivered.
Of course, it's hard to stay objective when you just saw 10, 20 thousand dollars wash away.
- I have no idea where the shift occurred in this community, or if it is a wider-spread issue, to no longer use machine shops to build motors. Coming from the domestic world sortof, that was the route everyone went. You had a machinist machine and spec the motor, you got it balanced and blueprinted... all specs documented. Then somewhere along, we got mail order engines, and we started asking of our tuners that they also invest a lot of money so they are able to do everything 'in house'. and everything was based on the brands we were buying and not the build methodology used (loose/tight piston clearances for example).
Granted, there were issues with 'who is responsible' when there was a failure... even when shops supposedly farmed out the machine work themselves (like AAM claimed, and I think JT, and I think Julian at one point).
Last edited by Motormouth; 11-09-2009 at 11:23 AM.
11-09-2009, 10:11 AM
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my two comments:
- the main problem with 'people posting their experiences', especially negative ones, is that too often it's laced with emotions. On the internet that leads to flame wars. Half the time, no one even disputes the issue, it's all about how the message is delivered.
- the main problem with 'people posting their experiences', especially negative ones, is that too often it's laced with emotions. On the internet that leads to flame wars. Half the time, no one even disputes the issue, it's all about how the message is delivered.
Well said....thank you......And thats what I have been saying. I use JZ as an example because this is his thread. He presented timelines, pix and videos in a drama free way. Who in their right mind could ignore him
When members do it this way....everyone listens.
I said I was wrong for supporting JT/PF until things were presented to me. Yeah, I was in shock...but we did not bash anyone that came to us correct.
We already know who Larry/Jetplane and Alberto is.....but for those we dont know....follow this example and give us paperwork/info, video/pix we can use......and like Motormouth said..leave emotions out of it.
Last edited by XKR; 11-09-2009 at 10:16 AM.
11-09-2009, 12:46 PM
#814
- I have no idea where the shift occurred in this community, or if it is a wider-spread issue, to no longer use machine shops to build motors. Coming from the domestic world sortof, that was the route everyone went. You had a machinist machine and spec the motor, you got it balanced and blueprinted... all specs documented. Then somewhere along, we got mail order engines, and we started asking of our tuners that they also invest a lot of money so they are able to do everything 'in house'. and everything was based on the brands we were buying and not the build methodology used (loose/tight piston clearances for example).
1. The larger shops used this as a selling tool by saying that they could deliver the build from start to finish "in house", implying that this would give better quality control.
2. The tuners saw how much profit was being made in the assembly process and since many of them know how to assemble a motor they decide to take on this process in an effort to build revenue.
Couple this process with basically no shop wanting to warranty any motor that they have not controlled from start to finish and there you have it IMO.
11-09-2009, 01:39 PM
#815
but why would a shop warranty any motor out of hand? of course there would have to be forensics done to determine failure.. I mean, almost anyone with a modicum of knowledge can put an engine together, and there are spec sheets available for torque ratings... that doesn't mean that someone should specialize in it (JT comes to mind, lol). Monkey see monkey do does not replace years of machining expertise.
Just my opinion and I could be wrong here but it also doesn't seem like 'going in house' has alleviated any build issues people are having... then it just gets blamed on the customer for 'not driving it right' as Alberto mentioned... the customers secretly being told to turn the boost down for daily driving... accusations of oil changes...
I mean, I could go on, but I think we all know exactly the behaviors I am talking about.
Just my opinion and I could be wrong here but it also doesn't seem like 'going in house' has alleviated any build issues people are having... then it just gets blamed on the customer for 'not driving it right' as Alberto mentioned... the customers secretly being told to turn the boost down for daily driving... accusations of oil changes...
I mean, I could go on, but I think we all know exactly the behaviors I am talking about.
11-09-2009, 01:57 PM
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well, dont get me wrong. I am not having MAJOR problems. What I am alluding to is that much of what is said on the thread people do read and make decisions on. I frequented the shop build thread many times before I decided to FI my G35 and I used other people experiences to guide my decision on where to send my car. I am not blaming anyone because it was my decision to send the car there.
There should be a place to post up experiences or a feedback or rating system for sponsered shops. It seems almost every year around this time I see experiences like Jzurita's. VRT, SGP, PF..etc.
There should be a place to post up experiences or a feedback or rating system for sponsered shops. It seems almost every year around this time I see experiences like Jzurita's. VRT, SGP, PF..etc.
11-09-2009, 02:06 PM
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well, dont get me wrong. I am not having MAJOR problems. What I am alluding to is that much of what is said on the thread people do read and make decisions on. I frequented the shop build thread many times before I decided to FI my G35 and I used other people experiences to guide my decision on where to send my car. I am not blaming anyone because it was my decision to send the car there.
There should be a place to post up experiences or a feedback or rating system for sponsered shops. It seems almost every year around this time I see experiences like Jzurita's. VRT, SGP, PF..etc.
There should be a place to post up experiences or a feedback or rating system for sponsered shops. It seems almost every year around this time I see experiences like Jzurita's. VRT, SGP, PF..etc.
BTW..This is not directed at you.....
I know there is a few that knew that JT was up to know good.....but kept it under raps because they were recieving hand outs.....
Have to run....finish my though later
11-09-2009, 02:16 PM
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Well...A year or so ago when JT/PF was doing OK.....his customers ( Not nuthuggers) came on here prasing his work....his cars were fast at the strip. None of us who have never been to his shop could have seen this coming.
BTW..This is not directed at you.....
I know there is a few that knew that JT was up to know good.....but kept it under raps because they were recieving hand outs.....
Have to run....finish my though later
BTW..This is not directed at you.....
I know there is a few that knew that JT was up to know good.....but kept it under raps because they were recieving hand outs.....
Have to run....finish my though later
Last edited by IslandZavage; 11-09-2009 at 02:20 PM.
11-09-2009, 06:40 PM
#819
I know i never saw it coming. True Shocker! Who are the few? I know if i would of got rapped then found out there were people that knew about it, id extend my *** kicking to them aswell. Why are these people not banned (if not already)with the shops that they knew were Fawking people over?
