PMI Fall '04 track day thread
10-05-2004, 10:25 AM
#61
My Redstuff are gone out back. They will not hold up at PMI. The fronts have plenty of life, but the rears are almost on the wear bar, and Courtesy just told me they will not have them in stock in time to ship to me after all.
Gary-
Do you still have the Axxis Ultimates? If so, can you bring them to PMI. I can probably throw them on at the track. I'll bring the tools and jack if you can spot me the pads. Let me know, otherwise it will be on stock pads for two or three laps and back again.
I am trying to find a sub to teach my class on Friday, if this pans out I'll catch you guys on I-25 between Briargate Pkwy and Academy. Joel- I'll post Thurs. if this can work and hope to see you there. If not, I'll probably not arrive at PMI until 11:00, but I will be there, crapbin tranny, brakes, tires and all! Whoo Hooo!
Will
Gary-
Do you still have the Axxis Ultimates? If so, can you bring them to PMI. I can probably throw them on at the track. I'll bring the tools and jack if you can spot me the pads. Let me know, otherwise it will be on stock pads for two or three laps and back again.
I am trying to find a sub to teach my class on Friday, if this pans out I'll catch you guys on I-25 between Briargate Pkwy and Academy. Joel- I'll post Thurs. if this can work and hope to see you there. If not, I'll probably not arrive at PMI until 11:00, but I will be there, crapbin tranny, brakes, tires and all! Whoo Hooo!
Will
10-05-2004, 11:05 AM
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What time is everyone planning to stay till? My GF wants to watch, (and probally ride), but she has to work @ 4 that afternoon. I don't know how long the drive is from Den to PMI, but I want to leave plenty of room for fun, so I am just trying to see if it would be logical for her to come with.
thanx,
beeman
thanx,
beeman
10-05-2004, 11:29 AM
#63
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Will - I believe that I still have a used set of Axxis Ultimates for the fronts (I'll double-check tonight to make sure,) but I have nothing for the rears. I just replaced the Redstuffs that I had on the rear, but the previous set I had on there doesn't have enough life left to be useful. So if you need fronts, I'll bring the Axxis pads (I'll bring them anyway, just in case) but I can't offer anything for the rears. Worst case scenario, you come out for a few laps at a time on the stockers and be disciplined with how hard you push the brakes...still a worthwhile experience, in my opinion.
I hope you can get everything squared away to meet us in the morning. If not, we'll see you a bit later in the day.
beeman - It's about a 2 hour drive back to Denver from PMI, conservatively speaking, and the rest of us will probably stay until 5 or 6 (when it starts getting too dark to drive on track.) So if you were to leave PMI early enough to get her to work at 4, you'd probably not want to stay any later than 2 pm. By the schedule we usually work from, that would be enough time for you to experience all of the driving exercises we typically start out with (threshold braking, accident avoidance, and slalom,) and get through most of the track-learning and into open track sessions. In other words, you'd probably be leaving right when you would otherwise be hitting your stride and really getting comfortable with opening it up and pushing it a little bit more. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it at that point.
Another point I'll add here is that all of the significant others that have ever joined us for a track session have had a great time and always happily encourage attendance at future events...I don't know if that helps, but it's something to consider.
Gary
I hope you can get everything squared away to meet us in the morning. If not, we'll see you a bit later in the day.
beeman - It's about a 2 hour drive back to Denver from PMI, conservatively speaking, and the rest of us will probably stay until 5 or 6 (when it starts getting too dark to drive on track.) So if you were to leave PMI early enough to get her to work at 4, you'd probably not want to stay any later than 2 pm. By the schedule we usually work from, that would be enough time for you to experience all of the driving exercises we typically start out with (threshold braking, accident avoidance, and slalom,) and get through most of the track-learning and into open track sessions. In other words, you'd probably be leaving right when you would otherwise be hitting your stride and really getting comfortable with opening it up and pushing it a little bit more. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it at that point.
Another point I'll add here is that all of the significant others that have ever joined us for a track session have had a great time and always happily encourage attendance at future events...I don't know if that helps, but it's something to consider.
Gary
10-05-2004, 11:48 AM
#64
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Too bad I cant make that date but we got a sportZ person there so all I can say is enjoy yourselves and post some pics when you get a chance...
Jeff
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10-05-2004, 12:52 PM
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Will and Joel: Are you guys the only ones from the Springs? I do not know where the exit you guys are planning on staying at is in the relation to any I-25 milestones. Let me know when to give Joel a call when the Denver cavavan passes a certain exit or sign or whatever that easy to see. I don't realy know the Spings that well, so give me an obvious and easy to reconize landmark.
David
David
10-05-2004, 01:06 PM
#66
Gary-
My front pads are fine, it's the rears that are shot. I plan to bring them just to show and compare to David's, but I won't run on them. No one has any rear pads in stock to sell me. This really blows.
David-
As you enter the Springs there are two overpasses you go under. The first is Interquest, the second is Briargate Pkwy. Immediately before Briargate Pkwy there is a scenic overlook and rest stop to take pictures of the Air Force Academy, the offramp from I-25 and exit from this rest stop is the same lane. This is where I tried to catch you guys last time going to La Junta. This time, I am planning on parking further south on the on ramp to I-25 just past this rest stop. It is the only place the I is three lanes wide. The on ramp lane from Briargate Blvd makes the third lane and eventually becomes the off ramp to Academy Blvd. The I curves to the West at this point and gives a better view of traffic so I can easily spot the caravan. I don't know if I'll make it though, or if Joel is for certain planning on waiting at this spot.
My front pads are fine, it's the rears that are shot. I plan to bring them just to show and compare to David's, but I won't run on them. No one has any rear pads in stock to sell me. This really blows.
David-
As you enter the Springs there are two overpasses you go under. The first is Interquest, the second is Briargate Pkwy. Immediately before Briargate Pkwy there is a scenic overlook and rest stop to take pictures of the Air Force Academy, the offramp from I-25 and exit from this rest stop is the same lane. This is where I tried to catch you guys last time going to La Junta. This time, I am planning on parking further south on the on ramp to I-25 just past this rest stop. It is the only place the I is three lanes wide. The on ramp lane from Briargate Blvd makes the third lane and eventually becomes the off ramp to Academy Blvd. The I curves to the West at this point and gives a better view of traffic so I can easily spot the caravan. I don't know if I'll make it though, or if Joel is for certain planning on waiting at this spot.
10-05-2004, 02:24 PM
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David,
If you call one of us when you see the first Interquest sign, that shoud be enough notice. I'll plan to be near the overlook ramp by 8:30. I would expect to see/hear you guys by 8:40 if you leave the Larkspur rest area on time.
Joel
If you call one of us when you see the first Interquest sign, that shoud be enough notice. I'll plan to be near the overlook ramp by 8:30. I would expect to see/hear you guys by 8:40 if you leave the Larkspur rest area on time.
Joel
10-05-2004, 03:16 PM
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Will,
I have a set of rears that I just pulled off that only have 6K on them. I didn't know if you would settle for stock, so I didn't offer earlier. If you want them, just bring a couple of $$, and I can part with them. I just need some cash to replace them when I pull of the Hawks. Let me know what you think...
beeman
I have a set of rears that I just pulled off that only have 6K on them. I didn't know if you would settle for stock, so I didn't offer earlier. If you want them, just bring a couple of $$, and I can part with them. I just need some cash to replace them when I pull of the Hawks. Let me know what you think...
beeman
10-05-2004, 05:28 PM
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Will and Joel: Sounds good, I give you a call at the first over pass to Inerquest. If you do not hear from us by 9:00 feel free to give me a call (Joel has my cell #).
For my Redstuff rears, Last time I looked at them I measured the pad material with a tape measurer. So in the most accurate terms and comparision I can do; The Brake pad material is at 1/8", the steel back is 1/8"(just a note for contrast), and the indicator is in the middle at 1/16". I used these pads at three track events. I am assuming that the pads wear linearly(?). And I don't know how thick they were when I first got them. So in order to be in "trouble" with the thickness of the rear pads, they would have to have started at 1/2" thick. Working backwards: 1/8" at La Junta, 1/8" at CSP, 1/8" at 2nd Creek, and a future 1/8" at PMI. I don't think that the rear pads were 1/2" to start, but closer to 1/4" to 3/8". This means 1/16" to 3/32" each track day. I may hit the indicator on the way home, but I will still have material.
Thinking about it now I better bring my stock pads.
David
For my Redstuff rears, Last time I looked at them I measured the pad material with a tape measurer. So in the most accurate terms and comparision I can do; The Brake pad material is at 1/8", the steel back is 1/8"(just a note for contrast), and the indicator is in the middle at 1/16". I used these pads at three track events. I am assuming that the pads wear linearly(?). And I don't know how thick they were when I first got them. So in order to be in "trouble" with the thickness of the rear pads, they would have to have started at 1/2" thick. Working backwards: 1/8" at La Junta, 1/8" at CSP, 1/8" at 2nd Creek, and a future 1/8" at PMI. I don't think that the rear pads were 1/2" to start, but closer to 1/4" to 3/8". This means 1/16" to 3/32" each track day. I may hit the indicator on the way home, but I will still have material.
Thinking about it now I better bring my stock pads.
David
10-05-2004, 06:07 PM
#70
Beeman-
Thanks for the offer, but my stock pads are plenty healthy. It's my Redstuff that is out of action.
David-
pads don't wear in a linear fashion. As the material wears down, there is less of it to absorb and dissipate the heat generated during braking. Since the amount of energy, and thereby heat, doesn't decrease as the brakes are continuously applied, the pad material continues to break down quicker and quicker as the available mass to dissipate that heat continues to decrease. The deterioration of the material as a function of the deteriorating mass's thermal threshold is a self-compounding problem, and thereby not a linear relationship.
On this note, I think you should be fine for one more event if you have that much left in comparison to what I have after three events. However, I think bringing the stock pads is better safe than sorry.
For me, I am trying to get some R4 compound from Porterfield, but they do not list anything for non-Brembo Z's. Carbotech won't sell me anything but street pads, neither will TireRack or anyone else I contact, and Courtesy won't have the Redstuff re-stocked until.... they don't know. Overnighting pads is looking expensive, but I've heard the R4's are nice. I'll find out in the morning if they have anything for me or not.
Will
Thanks for the offer, but my stock pads are plenty healthy. It's my Redstuff that is out of action.
David-
pads don't wear in a linear fashion. As the material wears down, there is less of it to absorb and dissipate the heat generated during braking. Since the amount of energy, and thereby heat, doesn't decrease as the brakes are continuously applied, the pad material continues to break down quicker and quicker as the available mass to dissipate that heat continues to decrease. The deterioration of the material as a function of the deteriorating mass's thermal threshold is a self-compounding problem, and thereby not a linear relationship.
On this note, I think you should be fine for one more event if you have that much left in comparison to what I have after three events. However, I think bringing the stock pads is better safe than sorry.
For me, I am trying to get some R4 compound from Porterfield, but they do not list anything for non-Brembo Z's. Carbotech won't sell me anything but street pads, neither will TireRack or anyone else I contact, and Courtesy won't have the Redstuff re-stocked until.... they don't know. Overnighting pads is looking expensive, but I've heard the R4's are nice. I'll find out in the morning if they have anything for me or not.
Will
10-06-2004, 06:39 AM
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Will: Thanks for the information on the Brake pads. Good luck on getting a set for Friday. Also good luck on getting a Sub, remember that I think it is more important that you teach us what you learned at the ESPN Russell track day instead.
David
David
10-07-2004, 09:10 AM
#72
Well....
My R4's arrived this morning courtesy of UPS, my cracked windshield was replaced, and my awesome wife stepped up as substitiute for my class Friday morning. She teaches Spanish and found a sub for her class since no one could find a sub for my automotive class. My wife is too cool.
Tonight we'll bleed the brakes, install the pads, bed them in and I'll see Joel and the Caravan tomorrow morning just past Briargate Pkwy!
BTW- anyone used Porterfield R4's here? Dave or Gary? I'm wondering if it is recommended to install them at PMI due to the extremely low coefficient of friction when cold making them unsafe for the trip down and back? Thanks,
Will
My R4's arrived this morning courtesy of UPS, my cracked windshield was replaced, and my awesome wife stepped up as substitiute for my class Friday morning. She teaches Spanish and found a sub for her class since no one could find a sub for my automotive class. My wife is too cool.
Tonight we'll bleed the brakes, install the pads, bed them in and I'll see Joel and the Caravan tomorrow morning just past Briargate Pkwy!
BTW- anyone used Porterfield R4's here? Dave or Gary? I'm wondering if it is recommended to install them at PMI due to the extremely low coefficient of friction when cold making them unsafe for the trip down and back? Thanks,
Will
10-07-2004, 10:49 AM
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Will- I haven't used the R4s personally, but my experience with other race pads (Hawk blues, PF 97/101 compounds) has been that they are usually safe for street use. They don't grab at low temps as well as when they are in their operating range, so that means you must look ahead. Usually you are operating so far below the limit on the street that it isn't a factor.
Having said that, the BIG factor is rotor wear. They will EAT your rotors when they are cold, so don't leave them on for long. Back and forth to the track is OK for me, but get 'em off after that.
One more note: everyone should FILL UP their gas tanks BEFORE tomorrow as we'll head directly to the track. You don't want to miss out on a session when you get low...
Having said that, the BIG factor is rotor wear. They will EAT your rotors when they are cold, so don't leave them on for long. Back and forth to the track is OK for me, but get 'em off after that.
One more note: everyone should FILL UP their gas tanks BEFORE tomorrow as we'll head directly to the track. You don't want to miss out on a session when you get low...
10-07-2004, 11:58 AM
#74
Thanks for letting me know Dave,
The Redstuff pads were really bad when cold, but EBC said they could be used on the street so I always wore them to and from. Since the R4 is a full race compound, whereas the Redstuf was an aggressive street/ track day compound, I figured they would be even worse when cold than the Redstuff. If you've driven on Performance Friction 01 compound to the track and back though, then I feel better about the R4. Thanks again,
Will
The Redstuff pads were really bad when cold, but EBC said they could be used on the street so I always wore them to and from. Since the R4 is a full race compound, whereas the Redstuf was an aggressive street/ track day compound, I figured they would be even worse when cold than the Redstuff. If you've driven on Performance Friction 01 compound to the track and back though, then I feel better about the R4. Thanks again,
Will
10-07-2004, 12:09 PM
#75
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Will - Glad you got everything squared away to come out for the full day with full brakes!
I've never used the R4 pads (I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on them,) but as David said, they'll work to get you to and from the track, and on top of that, they'll likely be pretty noisy. That fact alone should be enough to make you swap them back out after the track day!
I've never used the R4 pads (I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on them,) but as David said, they'll work to get you to and from the track, and on top of that, they'll likely be pretty noisy. That fact alone should be enough to make you swap them back out after the track day!
10-09-2004, 08:52 AM
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Friday was an awful good day. We had the largest turnout yet (although that's not saying much) and everybody had a great time. Sorry that Beeman had to leave early (I didn't realize how early this was going to be) and Resolute couldn't make it at all. Reminds me to say that, while we do have enough tools, jacks, etc. at the track to handle some emergencies, all the mechanical projects should be taken care of well ahead of time. Since we have some new folks who are trying this out for the first time, it's worth repeating: brakes are the major limiting factor in how much fun you can have during the day. Upgrading brake fluid is relatively easy and should be a must. Changing brake pad materials to your choice of high-performance pad is also an easy way to get more peace-of -mind while participating in a track day event.
Hope that everyone gets a chance to review the program materials I put together. Consider it an introduction to vehicle dynamics from the ground up! By visualizing what is happening to the contact patches on your Z, you'll gain better insight into what techniques work best for you.
Yesterday was the (fifth, sixth?) 350Z track day I've had the pleasure of sharing. I'm always looking for suggestions on how to improve them. Our November event gives us plenty of time to prepare, so give it some thought- even if you like the format we have now...
Hope that everyone gets a chance to review the program materials I put together. Consider it an introduction to vehicle dynamics from the ground up! By visualizing what is happening to the contact patches on your Z, you'll gain better insight into what techniques work best for you.
Yesterday was the (fifth, sixth?) 350Z track day I've had the pleasure of sharing. I'm always looking for suggestions on how to improve them. Our November event gives us plenty of time to prepare, so give it some thought- even if you like the format we have now...
10-09-2004, 01:24 PM
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PMI was my 3rd 350z Track day with David/Gary, and my 6th track day this year. PMI (by far) is my favorite and most challenging course for several reasons, all of which I won't go into here. The peeps that showed, displayed awesome driving skill and excitement... I feel satisfied, for at least a month. See you all there on Saturday, November 13th.