Cipher: Analyzing A/F and Timing thru 2nd & 3rd Gear
01-07-2007, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by UnderPressure
Once again another tuning thread full of bad info. 
Where to start.... How about basic conversion ratios. 1kw = 1.341hp
No. You are mistaken. 1 KW-hrs = 1.34 hp-hrs. 1 kw = 0.98630 hp How about those basic conversion ratios? http://www.dropbears.com/u/utilities/convert2.htm
http://egp.rutgers.edu/energy.html
HP and kw are measures of power. Hp-hrs and kw-hrs (the conversion you put) are measures of energy.
Deriving power gains from drag times is a very inconsistant way to come up w/ a number. I'm sure your not a consistant racer. You state above about hitting the rev limiter before shifting. Perhaps the fact you went .2 quicker was you actually pulled a clean run rather than banging the rev limiter.
There's a blinding flash of the obvious. That's the very reason that I said to forget about the 1/4 times as I felt they were innaccurate. BTW, how is it that you're so sure that I'm not a consistent racer? How do you know anything about me? Are you stalking me? 
What are you doing try to tune a car when you have no concept or understanding of basic tuning knowledge? I'm sure your regarded as the 'tuner' amongst you friends since you spent money and bought neat looking software for your car. Go take the car to a dyno, watch what they do, ask questions, don't believe everything your told, think and read up on how to tune an IC engine. Then your going the right direction.
Wow... where to start with this one. Let's see; I have a fairly good knowledge of basic tuning for not working in a professional shop. My knowledge is so good, in fact, that I just passed the ASE Exam A6 - Electrical/Electronic Systems. As soon as I submit my work experience (I've been an Avionics Mechanic - that's "Aviation Electronics" - in the Army for 9 years) to ASE, I will be ASE Certified. And not to seem like a know-it-all, I also took the A1 - Engine Repair and A8-Engine Performance tests. I did not pass those. I missed passing A1 by two questions and A8 by one question. I don't know if you have any ASE certified friends, but tell them that a guy with only DIY/hobby experience and no professional training almost passed these two tests and see what their reaction is. I showed my test reports to a long-time mechanic I work with (yeah, Publix has mechanics
) and he flipped out that I did so well with only hobbyist experience.
How many ASE exams have you taken?
As far as my hobbyist experience - I built an engine I had for my '85 Corvette, changed ECMs to a later model version, and did the other basic stuff - full stereo, suspension, etc. Every mod on my G I've done by myself except for the headers. I paid $100 to my 14 y/o stepson to help me out installing them.
Sorry if this sounds harsh but the tuning world is full of people like you who after getting the software or piggyback think they have a clue as to what they're doing. Yet they're still bagging groceries @ Publix.
The tuning world is also full of people who are full of themselves thinking... yeah, people who are full of themselves that think. Stop thinking. Ask questions before you show your ignorance and lose credibility with those you are seemingly trying to impress and those that you are trying to discredit. You never once bothered to ask what mods I have, any experience I may have in the field being discussed, or if I even have any friends. Fact is I'm not doing this to be flashy to my "friends". I've only shown anything I've done to my car to MAYBE four people. I don't care what people think about my car because I'm not building it for them. I also keep it under wraps to prevent the wrong people from deciding they'd rather have my stuff in their car.
Well, I'm off to Publix - I gotta work a double and that damn bagging machine needs a retune.
If you serious about learning how to tune - www.efi101.com
Where to start.... How about basic conversion ratios. 1kw = 1.341hp
No. You are mistaken. 1 KW-hrs = 1.34 hp-hrs. 1 kw = 0.98630 hp How about those basic conversion ratios? http://www.dropbears.com/u/utilities/convert2.htm
http://egp.rutgers.edu/energy.html
HP and kw are measures of power. Hp-hrs and kw-hrs (the conversion you put) are measures of energy.
Deriving power gains from drag times is a very inconsistant way to come up w/ a number. I'm sure your not a consistant racer. You state above about hitting the rev limiter before shifting. Perhaps the fact you went .2 quicker was you actually pulled a clean run rather than banging the rev limiter.
There's a blinding flash of the obvious. That's the very reason that I said to forget about the 1/4 times as I felt they were innaccurate. BTW, how is it that you're so sure that I'm not a consistent racer? How do you know anything about me? Are you stalking me? What are you doing try to tune a car when you have no concept or understanding of basic tuning knowledge? I'm sure your regarded as the 'tuner' amongst you friends since you spent money and bought neat looking software for your car. Go take the car to a dyno, watch what they do, ask questions, don't believe everything your told, think and read up on how to tune an IC engine. Then your going the right direction.
Wow... where to start with this one. Let's see; I have a fairly good knowledge of basic tuning for not working in a professional shop. My knowledge is so good, in fact, that I just passed the ASE Exam A6 - Electrical/Electronic Systems. As soon as I submit my work experience (I've been an Avionics Mechanic - that's "Aviation Electronics" - in the Army for 9 years) to ASE, I will be ASE Certified. And not to seem like a know-it-all, I also took the A1 - Engine Repair and A8-Engine Performance tests. I did not pass those. I missed passing A1 by two questions and A8 by one question. I don't know if you have any ASE certified friends, but tell them that a guy with only DIY/hobby experience and no professional training almost passed these two tests and see what their reaction is. I showed my test reports to a long-time mechanic I work with (yeah, Publix has mechanics
) and he flipped out that I did so well with only hobbyist experience. How many ASE exams have you taken?
As far as my hobbyist experience - I built an engine I had for my '85 Corvette, changed ECMs to a later model version, and did the other basic stuff - full stereo, suspension, etc. Every mod on my G I've done by myself except for the headers. I paid $100 to my 14 y/o stepson to help me out installing them.
Sorry if this sounds harsh but the tuning world is full of people like you who after getting the software or piggyback think they have a clue as to what they're doing. Yet they're still bagging groceries @ Publix.
The tuning world is also full of people who are full of themselves thinking... yeah, people who are full of themselves that think. Stop thinking. Ask questions before you show your ignorance and lose credibility with those you are seemingly trying to impress and those that you are trying to discredit. You never once bothered to ask what mods I have, any experience I may have in the field being discussed, or if I even have any friends. Fact is I'm not doing this to be flashy to my "friends". I've only shown anything I've done to my car to MAYBE four people. I don't care what people think about my car because I'm not building it for them. I also keep it under wraps to prevent the wrong people from deciding they'd rather have my stuff in their car.
Well, I'm off to Publix - I gotta work a double and that damn bagging machine needs a retune.
If you serious about learning how to tune - www.efi101.com
Thank you. :thumbsup2:
Edit: And no, I would not like to purchase a dyno.
Last edited by dTor; 01-07-2007 at 03:13 PM.
01-07-2007, 03:16 PM
#22
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I would like to add that I, too, am still learning. I'm always learning. It's snide comments like the one made above that scare people off from trying to ask a question or offer assistance to those that need it.
Also, if you would like to pay my fuel and time off from Publix for me to travel to a dyno that's worth a damn and is run by people who know wtf they are doing, I'll be happy to give you my paypal address. Until then, I'll have to rely on what I learn on my own, tech articles that I read, and from the people on here that offer real assistance.
Also, if you would like to pay my fuel and time off from Publix for me to travel to a dyno that's worth a damn and is run by people who know wtf they are doing, I'll be happy to give you my paypal address. Until then, I'll have to rely on what I learn on my own, tech articles that I read, and from the people on here that offer real assistance.
Last edited by dTor; 01-07-2007 at 03:20 PM.
01-07-2007, 04:20 PM
#23
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Try doing a search over my past posts in the tech section if you want to see experience.
http://www.wentec.com/unipower/calculators/kw_hp.asp
All in a handy little calculator for you.
You frail little ego is always going to be your problem. I really don't give a damn what you think or who you are. I've been making a living for a long time doing things much more involved than correcting bad infomation in a forum.
Chances are there is alot of things you touch in your daily life I've had a hand in designing or consulted on.
At no point did I attack you directly. I'm just tired of this current trend of people w/ very little experience playing/calling themselves a tuner. Alot of motors are damaged and money wasted on these people. Just because you can push a button and read a graph does not a tuner make. Think of it as someone fresh out of boot coming into your shop and after 1 week thinking they know everything about Aviation electronic systems and speaking badly about your work. Personally I could probably hack my way thru diagnosing a problem in a plane/heli but would feel much better having someone like yourself who got experience to fix the issue. Same thing here.
The key here is the OP is playing in a realm he's got no experience in. Not even understanding the basic terms of IC function. He needs to step back and get a firm grasp on the processes involved before heading down a road that could get very ugly and expensive quick.
btw ASE Master cert. Let it expire this october. Got the cert on a whim, never had any use for it other than helping reduce the business insurance. SAE member for 7 years. Customers cars have held national records/championships in drag and road course racing.
Like I stated this was never a personal attack I'm just very tired of dealing w/ people who think they have a clue when they are about as far out in left field as possible. I'm not going to sugar coat my opinion to make them feel better about their lack of knowledge.
I learn every day as well. That's the sign of someone with wisdom - they know, they don't know it all.
http://www.wentec.com/unipower/calculators/kw_hp.asp
All in a handy little calculator for you.
You frail little ego is always going to be your problem. I really don't give a damn what you think or who you are. I've been making a living for a long time doing things much more involved than correcting bad infomation in a forum.
Chances are there is alot of things you touch in your daily life I've had a hand in designing or consulted on.
At no point did I attack you directly. I'm just tired of this current trend of people w/ very little experience playing/calling themselves a tuner. Alot of motors are damaged and money wasted on these people. Just because you can push a button and read a graph does not a tuner make. Think of it as someone fresh out of boot coming into your shop and after 1 week thinking they know everything about Aviation electronic systems and speaking badly about your work. Personally I could probably hack my way thru diagnosing a problem in a plane/heli but would feel much better having someone like yourself who got experience to fix the issue. Same thing here.
The key here is the OP is playing in a realm he's got no experience in. Not even understanding the basic terms of IC function. He needs to step back and get a firm grasp on the processes involved before heading down a road that could get very ugly and expensive quick.
btw ASE Master cert. Let it expire this october. Got the cert on a whim, never had any use for it other than helping reduce the business insurance. SAE member for 7 years. Customers cars have held national records/championships in drag and road course racing.
Like I stated this was never a personal attack I'm just very tired of dealing w/ people who think they have a clue when they are about as far out in left field as possible. I'm not going to sugar coat my opinion to make them feel better about their lack of knowledge.
I learn every day as well. That's the sign of someone with wisdom - they know, they don't know it all.
01-07-2007, 05:16 PM
#24
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I'll end my part in this discussion with this: At no point did I ever call myself a tuner. I simply offered my advice to a guy who was asking for it, and I corrected myself when I found an error in my judgement, days before you even decided to chime in. Instead of attacking, I feel that you should have explained your stance in a civil manner and taught me something useful.
As far as the calculator links, we could go back and forth on google all night finding various calculators that both seem to show that both of us are either right or wrong. I posted two different links showing the differences between hp-hrs/kw-hrs and hp/kw. You've posted a link showing hp/kw as being the same numerical conversion as what my links show as being hp-hrs/kw-hrs.
You are right about not letting a private work on an aircraft alone, but our senior mechanics don't go around telling privates that they don't know wtf they're doing without correcting their mistakes.
You don't have to sugar coat anything. I accept constructive criticism better than most, and I welcome it. Don't come in here calling me things I've never claimed to be, tell me I don't know wtf I'm doing, not ask for any credentials, insult my intelligence, and then not even offer to help the OP.
There is one thing I totally agree with you about: it's that the smartest people are only certain about one thing - that they don't know much.
As far as the calculator links, we could go back and forth on google all night finding various calculators that both seem to show that both of us are either right or wrong. I posted two different links showing the differences between hp-hrs/kw-hrs and hp/kw. You've posted a link showing hp/kw as being the same numerical conversion as what my links show as being hp-hrs/kw-hrs.
You are right about not letting a private work on an aircraft alone, but our senior mechanics don't go around telling privates that they don't know wtf they're doing without correcting their mistakes.
You don't have to sugar coat anything. I accept constructive criticism better than most, and I welcome it. Don't come in here calling me things I've never claimed to be, tell me I don't know wtf I'm doing, not ask for any credentials, insult my intelligence, and then not even offer to help the OP.
There is one thing I totally agree with you about: it's that the smartest people are only certain about one thing - that they don't know much.
01-07-2007, 07:05 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by UnderPressure
The key here is the OP is playing in a realm he's got no experience in. Not even understanding the basic terms of IC function. He needs to step back and get a firm grasp on the processes involved before heading down a road that could get very ugly and expensive quick.
Please don't feel that you need to reply to me.
Please do stop posting in my thread!
01-07-2007, 07:07 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by PunKidd
Cipher should be able to log the ECUs internal knock counter as well as the high detonation flag for select ECU versions by the next release. It's currently being tested on our 05 shop Z, but they are not standard Nissan parameters so it changes for each ECU software revision.
Jared@uprev.com
Jared@uprev.com
01-07-2007, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by __jb
I'm an old-time racer that tuned engines for years. That was quite a while ago, and I'm trying to learn about newer engines with fuel injection and engine management systems. That's why I bought Cipher and that's why I started this thread. If I break something I'll fix it.
Please don't feel that you need to reply to me.
Please do stop posting in my thread!
Please don't feel that you need to reply to me.
Please do stop posting in my thread!
Carb or fuel injected make absolutly no difference. Read a book, ask a question but just don't get ahead of yourself, which is exactly what your doing. That's the advice/comment. Go visit Jeremy and get the car on the dyno.
As for not posting in 'your' thread....
01-08-2007, 09:09 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by UnderPressure
You've tuned for years but don't know the basics of IC engines? WTF kind of tuner were/are you?
You can say that I don't fully understand modern engine management systems... that's obviously true, although I'm learning. When I raced, there were no A/F gauges or any other ways to measure A/F that I know of. For some reason I keep flipping the A/F values in my head, but thanks to other posters here, I think I've finally got it figured out. This thread has helped a great deal... until you started posting, of course.
As fas as understanding IC engines, you are off the mark. I built my own engines, starting with putting the bearings and crankshaft in the block... up to putting the engine in the car and successfully racing for many years. I don't normally post about this stuff because it was a long time ago and some (lots) of my technology is old and out of date.
Originally Posted by UnderPressure
Carb or fuel injected make absolutly no difference. Read a book, ask a question but just don't get ahead of yourself, which is exactly what your doing.
I suggest you read chapter one in How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems by Jeff Hartman.
Originally Posted by UnderPressure
Go visit Jeremy and get the car on the dyno.
Originally Posted by UnderPressure
As for not posting in 'your' thread....
01-08-2007, 10:47 AM
#29
This forum always has flamers in it with worthless bashing. The all state the same thing take your car to a shop. ASE cert doesnt make a **** nissan techs i took my car too had those and they were like retarded monkeys. Instead of bashing people UnderPressure you should help them out if you are so damn smart.
01-08-2007, 01:16 PM
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Underpressure- You are lost like a puppy! So your saying theres no differences in a carbed or Fuel Injected engine? <---- LOL Show me a carb you alter the fuel and timing maps on. Why are you bashing on people that are trying to learn? I taught myself how to tune with a Utec and a wide band. That is what people are supposed to do. At least he is trying to tune his car. As far as ASE cert thats junk. I know people that have that piece of paper and still dont know how to set valve lash the correct way. If you want to compare experience go talk to a Autozone and get a job there. Should be plenty of people you can relate to.
01-08-2007, 08:16 PM
#31
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Each one of you trying to knock on me here is a joke.
When you can actually make a living building, tuning and racing cars. Come talk to me. I've been doing that for the past 13 years. I live the life you wish you had.
Just because you've changed an ECU, tweeked a carb, wired in electronics, does not make you qualified in any way shape and or form. All of you are proving my point exactly. Guys like you cause nothing but headaches and running jokes to professionals. I came into this thread to correct the misinformation you guys spread like gossip in a quilting circle.
dukeduster: comprehension is your friend. Read what I said about carbs and FI. The basic concept of how a IC, that's Internal Combustion since i need to spell things out for you all, engine operates is the same. A/F is A/F, timing is timing. The OP has/had a lack of understanding this and other basic concepts.
The point is erroneous info was being taken as truth. IE the conversion ratio. If you doubt the 1kw = 1.341hp look it up yourself. The calculators dTor proved this as well. I have no idea how he came up w/ the numbers he did.
Lesson of this and every other post I've made in this thread. Know what your talking about and check you facts before posting and passing on bad information.
rocks: I get paid for helping people, paid well. I'm helping them by correcting thier errors for free. Since it's free I don't need to kiss *** or sugar coat my opinion about their rampant ignorance and arrogance.
When you can actually make a living building, tuning and racing cars. Come talk to me. I've been doing that for the past 13 years. I live the life you wish you had.
Just because you've changed an ECU, tweeked a carb, wired in electronics, does not make you qualified in any way shape and or form. All of you are proving my point exactly. Guys like you cause nothing but headaches and running jokes to professionals. I came into this thread to correct the misinformation you guys spread like gossip in a quilting circle.
dukeduster: comprehension is your friend. Read what I said about carbs and FI. The basic concept of how a IC, that's Internal Combustion since i need to spell things out for you all, engine operates is the same. A/F is A/F, timing is timing. The OP has/had a lack of understanding this and other basic concepts.
The point is erroneous info was being taken as truth. IE the conversion ratio. If you doubt the 1kw = 1.341hp look it up yourself. The calculators dTor proved this as well. I have no idea how he came up w/ the numbers he did.
Lesson of this and every other post I've made in this thread. Know what your talking about and check you facts before posting and passing on bad information.
rocks: I get paid for helping people, paid well. I'm helping them by correcting thier errors for free. Since it's free I don't need to kiss *** or sugar coat my opinion about their rampant ignorance and arrogance.
Last edited by UnderPressure; 01-08-2007 at 08:19 PM.
01-08-2007, 08:30 PM
#32
Underpressure: the only helpful comment you've made is about the conversion ratio. Wish you had stuck to just that.
I appreciate the motivation and the efforts of the OP and those like him. Kudos and thanks for sharing - that's what this forum is about.
I appreciate the motivation and the efforts of the OP and those like him. Kudos and thanks for sharing - that's what this forum is about.
01-08-2007, 10:40 PM
#33
Your not correcting errors your being an **** to people but saying you have been tuning and building cars for 13 years, if you have you would give out good advice and not chew on someone because they need some guidance.. Its people like you that i despise in the tuner world.
Yea just because i could build 500$ junkyard turbo cars and make over 400hp doesnt make me qualified in anyway to tune or work on my own cars. I would rather try it and break than pay someone like you who walks around with your nose stuck up in the air.
Yea just because i could build 500$ junkyard turbo cars and make over 400hp doesnt make me qualified in anyway to tune or work on my own cars. I would rather try it and break than pay someone like you who walks around with your nose stuck up in the air.
01-08-2007, 10:54 PM
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yah i need internal combustion explained to me cause I have no idea what that means! Please spread some light on this "internal combustion" as you call it. pffff some of that new jibber jabber science blabber to me. I wouldnt know anything about injector scaling,temperature compensation, injector duty cycles, open loop, closed loop, maf calibrations, map calibrations, tps calibrations, or any of that other stuff. hell i dont even know how to use a digital micrometer to measure thickness on valve buckets just so they dont run different lifts. Why haven't I heard of you since your such a experienced tuner?
01-08-2007, 11:00 PM
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"I live the life you wish you had."
Oh god yes I really want to work on other peoples cars for a living soooooo badly. What a job making money by getting covered in filth. Man you hit the nail on the head there.
Oh god yes I really want to work on other peoples cars for a living soooooo badly. What a job making money by getting covered in filth. Man you hit the nail on the head there.
02-27-2007, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by PunKidd
Cipher should be able to log the ECUs internal knock counter as well as the high detonation flag for select ECU versions by the next release. It's currently being tested on our 05 shop Z, but they are not standard Nissan parameters so it changes for each ECU software revision.
Jared@uprev.com
Jared@uprev.com
Wow, how did I miss this? Jared, this is excellent news, especially for newbie’s like me. Any ETA on this Cipher feature? Thanks
UnderPressure, please don’t let some members of this board stop you from sharing your long experience and vast knowledge. I for one am looking forward to learn and benefit from it.
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