maXmood

iTrader: (16)

Hi Guys,

Finally, the car is running now, everything has been installed, breaking in the engine now.

the car has been tuned for start-up + cruising, but i'm not liking how it acts. a cold start takes a while cranking till it starts running (80 degrees temp), i really have to crank for couple of seconds, let off, then crank again for couple of seconds till it starts. sometimes it just keeps cranking and never wanna start, so i let it off for few seconds and start cranking again, and it takes a while before it starts.

the problem is, the tuner was busy when i took the car to him, so he did a quick tune and asked me to fine tune the ignition and fuel base, which i did and got it to crank and start a bit faster, but not as fast as it should be.

i can't take the car back to him these days as he won't be available for a while, so i wanna fine tune it myself. i wanna do the start up + cruising, because i'm seeing 15.6+ AFR when i pass 2.8k RPM (not boosting at all).

Those are the parts installed (the meth kit is installed but not working as off now till i break in the engine and get it on the dyno)

Car is 2006 5AT.
-Vortech SC v2 Tuner kit with Charge cooler (No FMU)
-2.87 drive pulley
-600cc DW injectors
-Walbro 255lph fuel pump
-Koyo 36mm Vcore radiator
-B&M Trans oil cooler
-GTM HD engine oil cooler
-NGK one step colder spark plugs
-AAM oil pan spacer
-Nismo thermostats

Engine:
-Wiseco pistons - 8.8:1 cr, 0.020 overbore
-Eagle rods
-BC cams Stage 2 (264/264)
-ARP headstuds- L19
-ARP main bolts
-HKS headgaskets, 97mm
-ACL Tri-Metal Crankshaft Bearings
-ACL Tri-Metal Rod Bearings
-Clevite Thrust Washer set

-Pathfinder cooling mod
-Revup oil pump
-Snow Performance meth kit (stage 2)
-Tomei headers
-Tomei Test pipes
-Borla TD exhaust
-Kinetix SSV Manifold
-TransGo Valvebody upgrade kit
-RFS stage 0

Supercharger modifications:
-Upgraded blower including impeller
-Upgraded cog pulley
-GTM non-slip pulley

please chip in if you know what should i fiddle with.

Edit: i will try to post screenshots of the tables.

Thanks
maX

Dynosty

iTrader: (27)

While connected live you can follow the blue circle to know what cells you are currently in (remember it reads off of neighboring cells as well). Work on the group of cells it is reading off of, and remember remember the neighboring cells as well. I find it helpful to press 't' on your keyboard which enables a line trace of where the engine has been. Also, PC logging can be helpful. It is found down on the bottom of your screen and will play back an area as if it was live. Pressing F6 will start the PC logger and F6 again will stop the logger.

maXmood

iTrader: (16)

Thanks for the tips, Hal..

What are the things that i need to look at while fine tuning? base fuel? ignition? afr?

deanfootlong

iTrader: (10)

what is your cranking ignition timing set to? and what is your cranking injection timing set to? try setting your base cranking ignition timing to around 5-8 degrees. then start low and increase your crank injection timing. you will notice a difference in how long/short it takes to catch.

maXmood

iTrader: (16)

i'll look into that.. thanks!

maXmood

iTrader: (16)

my laptop is @ my friend's, i'll probably pick it up today to check things out.

so, here's today's cold start (surprisingly, it didn't take long to start, but there's a bit of cranking).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHw4ynHbPV4&sns=em

That's a hot start (it doesn't usually take time to start, so that's the normal condition).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Sn_fLNz4jA&sns=em

This is while cruising.. i need to fine tune this, as it leans out after 2.8k RPM to 16+ AFR (nearing the end of the vid)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx2R-CX25J0&sns=em

comments and suggestions please.

Thanks
maX

maXmood

iTrader: (16)

^not sure why vids aren't showing properly or even my comments..

Edit: FIXED!!!

deanfootlong

iTrader: (10)

hot start doent seem bad to me at all. with the cold start; just wait till you hook up to the ecu and see what values you have entered for the cranking ignition timing and cranking injection timing and we'll go from there. sounds a bit like mine did when i was playing around with cranking injection timing with too little miliseconds of injection. with the lean spot; just have a friend drive your car around town with you in shotgun while connected to haltech. just follow the blue circle around your base fuel map and take a look for the lean spots. you will find them easy. just dont forget to adjust the surrounding cells also.

mx594

iTrader: (4)

I tune strictly by datalogging. Things happen too quickly to be able to watch the screen and tell what to adjust (well, not so much in the low RPM, high vacuum zones but still). Not to mention I don't have anyone to drive for me, and watching the screen while driving is obviously a bad idea.

What I do is this:

The Haltech VE table will have vacuum/boost along the X-axis and RPM on the Y-axis. Take a note of the column headings and correlate them to a needle position on your boost gauge. The Haltech ECU manager lets you choose the units you are displaying so if your boost gauge is in in-hg/psi, you can change the Haltech to display the same units and find out what the column "centers" are. Now go find a long flat road with little traffic, and slow way down so you are at ~1000 rpm in third or fourth gear. Start datalogging. Slowly accelerate while watching the boost gauge and try to hold the engine at the center of the column you are trying to tune throughout the RPM range. A steady foot is key here, you are trying to minimize transient throttle as much as possible. Continue to accelerate and reach as many RPM rows as possible. At some point the car just won't accelerate any more without more throttle. Do this a few times for several different columns, then pull over and analyze the log. Compare the actual A/F ratio to the target A/F ratio based on the vacuum/rpm breakpoints on your fuel map. Make adjustments to the fuel map, then go out and do it again.

Make sure you have the O2 control turned off when you do this, otherwise you will not be making the correct adjustments.

Fourth gear works better for the higher loads because it keeps you from accelerating as quickly. A slight uphill grade also helps keep the engine in each cell longer. Similarly the very high vacuum columns are sometimes easier to tune on a slight downhill slope, which helps you accelerate and reach the higher RPM rows.

When you are all done, turn the O2 correction back on. If you do a good job tuning, your O2 corrections should always be less than 10%. If you do it really well you can get them under 5%.

If you are confident that your O2 sensors are working properly and your O2 correction settings are good, you can also tune based off the O2 correction value, i.e. see where the computer is adding fuel and then go add fuel to that point on your map so the computer has less work to do.

And remember, your fuel map should be smooth - no big holes or spikes. The 3D view is great for this because you can do some manual smoothing as you tune.

maXmood

iTrader: (16)

got the laptop with me, didn't get the time to fine tune it, but here are the tables anyways.

Cranking Injection Time





Ignition Crank Time




more ref tables:

Ignition Base





Fuel Base





Target AFR

maXmood

iTrader: (16)

Thanks mx.. i'm new to tuning, i did fine tune before, but only minimal, and since the car been garaged for a year, i totally forgot what's what..

+1 to ur suggestion, datalogging helps alot in analysing the whole trip, i've done it before and knew couple of things that weren't obvious when tuning live.

i'll work on ur suggestion as well, see if i can get it tuned properly.

i'll also keep this thread updated.

Thanks
maX

deanfootlong

iTrader: (10)

i would cut that crank injection timing in half and see what happens. mine were never that high when i had dw600's. make sure you have the correct injector latency for those injectors entered in your injector dead times table.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

those maps look pretty poor.

my suggestions
>increase the fuel resolution to at least 500 rpms between cells. 1000 rpm jumps, esp at the lower rpms is too big a spread.
>obviously you are going to get leaner as your rpms increase becuase you are keeping your fueling the same
>get your timing cells out to your max boost. You are leaving alot of midrange on the table
>thats a ton of timing at idle. you should start around 15* at idle and ramp up to 30* or so under vacuum.
>i've never done 600s on a haltech, but those cranking inj times seem very high. too rich will make it a hard start for sure.
>all my haltech maps had a similar crank timing value. But you could try 5* at 0 and 8* at 399
>like others have said, just take some logs. Superchargers are simple to dial in because you always hit the exact same boost at the exact same rpm. so you will only need to tune a few cells in a diagonal line down the map.

maXmood

iTrader: (16)

i'll try and do that.

i need to find those latency numbers.

thanks
100% agree they're poor..

the guy didn't feel like taking enough time to tune it. so i'm going to do this myself + i could also learn.


>increase the fuel resolution to at least 500 rpms between cells. 1000 rpm jumps, esp at the lower rpms is too big a spread.

I increased like you suggested, a 500 jump.

>obviously you are going to get leaner as your rpms increase becuase you are keeping your fueling the same

Agreed.. i need to fine tune this area the most. also i need to clean the air filter to make sure i'm getting enough air in.

>get your timing cells out to your max boost. You are leaving alot of midrange on the table

sorry, but which table are you talking about?

>thats a ton of timing at idle. you should start around 15* at idle and ramp up to 30* or so under vacuum.

is this under Ignition - Base ? which is set to 45?

>i've never done 600s on a haltech, but those cranking inj times seem very high. too rich will make it a hard start for sure.

i'll adjust this and try to find the latency.

>all my haltech maps had a similar crank timing value. But you could try 5* at 0 and 8* at 399

i'll try that.

>like others have said, just take some logs. Superchargers are simple to dial in because you always hit the exact same boost at the exact same rpm. so you will only need to tune a few cells in a diagonal line down the map.

i've done 2 logs so far (work > home, and home > work) which is about 25mins each, i'm gonna go through them now and try to find weak parameters and adjust them accordingly.

i appreciate your feedback/input, guys. you can't imagine how hard it is to get a car tuned in my country.

thanks again
maX

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

25 mins is way too long, you need to have a specific goal in mind. random driving is not very useful and the time spent going thru it will be too much.

mx594

iTrader: (4)

Agreed. You need to target column by column. Otherwise you will get too much variation caused by changing throttle position (called transient effects, like accel fuel) to be able to make educated adjustments. And 25 minutes is crazy, my longest log is probably 5.

Just sent you a PM. I have a map tuned for my car with DW600's and a CJM Stage 0 RFS. I have to believe it would be a lot closer to where you need to be than the crap you posted above. The only thing I don't know is how the lower compression of your engine will effect the map - for example I am using copy through timing in all vacuum zones so I am not sure if that is still OK with the supercharger and lower CR.

mx594

iTrader: (4)

Also if you are really serious about tuning yourself, buy these two books and read each one of them twice - and understand them. Then go start tuning.

http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Tuni...tt_at_ep_dpt_2

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Managem...tt_at_ep_dpi_1

maXmood

iTrader: (16)

i did this just to go through the whole thing to see how things are and spot weak parameters and focus on later (when live).

Thanks mx..

i replied to your PM.

maXmood

iTrader: (16)

got to fine tune the car last night, i adjusted the fuel map accordingly and now it's running smoother than earlier, also i'm not seeing any lean AFR upto 4100 RPM (which was my maximum without going into boost).

i found injector latency for my DW600 on the web, but when i entered them, the car starts fine, but way rich, it was showing 10 AFR constant and since my guage doesn't read below that, i'm not sure how rich it was.

so i went on the fuel base and adjust the cells to have less fuel, but it kept showing 10AFR, till i reached like i wasn't pushing any fuel and the AFR bounced to 10.2, so i gave up and put back the previous parameters.

what am i suppose to do with this?? and maybe one of u guys can help me out here? the values i got from the web were something like this:

10v - 2.0
11v - 1.8
12v - 1.6
13v - 1.5
14v - 1.4

the current one is:

8v - 0.920
9v - 0.815
10v - 0.710
11v - 0.605
12v - 0.450

Can someone please confirm the correct parameters for the same injectors?

Regarding Crank injection timing, i played around with it, but the car didn't wanna start. so i put it back to how it was.

maXmood

iTrader: (16)

Injector Flow Rate, which one is correct?

This:



Or this