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full stiff..... rear..... soft ... front.... sounds like a **** scene
Who let this joker in?
Originally Posted by MicVelo
Whoa.... looking at the sway bars..... full stiff Front, full soft Rear.... AutoX setup? How's high speed handling? Any wind up on the front links? Seems interesting.
I've set mine up with nearly the opposite at full soft Front (but obviously still stiffer than stock), mid-stiff Rear and it gives me just enough bias towards oversteer to be fun for my type of driving. Would probably change it for the track though.
But clean setup, Quinton!
Mic
Yah, full stiff front and full soft rear. I haven't autox'ed the car yet actually.. don't really plan on AutoX. I had them at mid-stiff front and mid-rear when I first installed them and drove around on them, then switched around a few different times and this is what I prefer so far. The car is very point-and-shoot style driving I guess you would say?
I'll be hitting the track quite a bit this year and will likely end up playing around with it a bit more. Open to suggestions of course!
Endlinks haven't been binding from what I can tell, but on the topic of endlinks, I've been looking at changing endlinks at some point to Whitelines since I get a pretty good deal on them and the OEM ones are pretty wimpy.
Whoa.... looking at the sway bars..... full stiff Front, full soft Rear.... AutoX setup? How's high speed handling? Any wind up on the front links? Seems interesting.
I've set mine up with nearly the opposite at full soft Front (but obviously still stiffer than stock), mid-stiff Rear and it gives me just enough bias towards oversteer to be fun for my type of driving. Would probably change it for the track though.
But clean setup, Quinton!
Mic
I thought full stiff in front would give you more oversteer?
I have mine sed in mid for front and rear, and i like it. not too agressive and allows others to be able to drive my car, but agressive enough that i can still enjoy it.
Last thing you want is trav in ANYTHING, be it your post, your house, you....
lul
I feel like the car really just goes exactly where I point it to with this setup. I haven't driven it yet on the track to test how it feels there, but I will definitely make sure to remember that when the time comes and adjust accordingly.
The car isn't too aggressive in the corners when I'm hitting the backroads or the dragon, it really just goes exactly where I tell it to. No understeer from what I've noticed, and I would notice that because understeer is scary as heck haha.
I'll wait for Mic or others to voice their opinions as well. I'm sure Terra would have some great input on this subject.
I thought full stiff in front would give you more oversteer?
I have mine sed in mid for front and rear, and i like it. not too agressive and allows others to be able to drive my car, but agressive enough that i can still enjoy it.
For the most part, the stiffer the bar, the more traction you remove. So he removed all traction up front and has full traction up front. Understeer city
For the most part, the stiffer the bar, the more traction you remove. So he removed all traction up front and has full traction up front. Understeer city
Im sure its a typo, but "he removed all traction up front and has full traction up front"? Um xan someone rephrase for me please?
WARNING: This is very long and contains a bit of science (not much) but moreso, has a couple of very basic facts in it that may help you in your suspension tuning.
Originally Posted by terrasmak
For the most part, the stiffer the bar, the more traction you remove. So he removed all traction up front and has full traction OUT BACK (edited). Understeer city
Yes, that's true.
The science behind it is a little counterintuitive so here's a very short way of thinking about it....
Dislclaimer/Qualifier: As most know, any suspension design and/or modification MUST be made in connection with the TIRES, first and foremost. What I'm about to say applies ONLY to basic street tires. Once you go beyond into the realm of DOT legal race rubber or complete slicks, the dynamic changes quite a lot so anything here may not apply - as much - in a race situation.
Definitions:
The conditions known as "understeer" (or "plowing") and "oversteer" (or "oh sh*t! ) are essentially the result of one of other end of the car having diminished traction as compared to the other end. Note I didn't say "out of control" or "complete-loss-of-adhesion". Best to think of it as that point where the tire has reached it's maximum level of adhesion just before losing it completely. Very key point.
So, if you diminish traction on the front (compared to rear), car veers away from the turn apex, AKA understeer, requiring more driver input and conversely, diminish traction at the rear first and the car wants to "tail out" or veer towards the inside of the turn.
This condition is known - from the tire's perspective - as "maximum slip angle"; that is, it is the angle at which the tire distorts from a straight line path (tires are elastic, right?) in relation to the actual direction the tire is going.
So again, to repeat, maximum slip angle of the front or rear determines the state of which the car is behaving, under, over, or neutral steering.
OK, what's this mean in terms of the original commentary on sway bars?
Sway bars, in a gross simplification, help to transfer loading from outside to inside wheels in a turn, thereby allowing for a more even distribution of accelerative forces from side-to-side. The amount of torque (NOT engine torque; rather the twisting motion of the bar itself) transferred is dependent upon two things: the size or angle of attack (the attachment points) of the bar and the associated spring rate (torsional) of said bar. More bar or angle of attack, more transfer.
This is what is known as "roll stiffness". I won't get into that here as it's rather complicated, using things like roll centers, moments of inertia and other such stuff no one needs to know for THIS discussion. Suffice to say that you can have more or less roll stiffness and is one of the key factors in determining how well or bad your car handles in given conditions.
But, the effect on tires is this..... if the FRONT bar is thicker or stiffer than the rear and it allows the front tires to reach their maximum slip angle BEFORE the rears, oooops, understeer because the front tires are running at their maximum adhesion before losing it completely.
This is what I noticed in this example on Quinton's car, the fronts are set at full stiff or innermost hole on the bar versus a softer (in relation to the front only).
On the other end, if the REAR bar is thicker (or angle of attack is greater), the rear tires will reach their adhesion limit or maximum slip angle before the front, resulting in a more tail biased (some say tail happy ) attitude and will therefore oversteer.
So the net of it all is:
If you want to INCREASE understeer (remove oversteer), go stiffer in front.
Conversely, to INCREASE oversteer (remove understeer), stiffer in back.
But again, I have to qualify this..... NOT all cars behave EXACTLY according to this theory. In general, it all applies from a physics standpoint; BUT.... this thinking works BEST on RWD cars like our Zs. Add AWD or FWD to the mix and the dynamics of roll stiffness - while still applying - take a wicked turn and what works on our cars doesn't always work AS WELL on other cars. It is always best to look at each platform separate and determine what works best through testing and/or getting the opinions of others who have done it beforehand.
The next logical follow up to this would be the effect of staggered versus squared tire setups.... but not going there. Already used up my daily allotment of words.
Mic
PS You think this is long? There's entire books in great detail on what I just said about this one topic.... I said "gross oversimplification" didn't I? Heh heh....
Edit: FWIW, I run a set up tending towards oversteer but not opposite-lock oversteer like a drift car. I run my Hotchkis bars at Front: Hole 1 "full soft" (but STILL a fair amount stiffer than stock bars due to the bars being stiffer than stock to begin with) and Rear: Hole 2 ("medium") resulting in an increased amount or higher roll stiffness in back (as compared to the front). Works for ME.
So to get this straight, if i wanted over steer, its better to be soft front and stiff rear. If i want understeer, stiff from, soft rear. Correct?
But since our car comes with understeer already from the factory, is it better to go maximum softness up front and mid stiff in rear?
Yep. Dazzit.
I studied my Z's handling from the get-go for over a year before I actually made any changes. I knew what I wanted and my set up has worked for me since. I did change up the rear to full hard (settle down, Trav....) once but a tad more oversteer than I wanted given the roads I drive (next to steep dropoffs....) so changed back.
But I'll say this - and not to infer that I have greater driving talent, not in the least - going with a moderate to heavy oversteering car can be very dangerous for a less EXPERIENCED driver so buyer beware....
I studied my Z's handling from the get-go for over a year before I actually made any changes. I knew what I wanted and my set up has worked for me since. I did change up the rear to full hard (settle down, Trav....) once but a tad more oversteer than I wanted given the roads I drive (next to steep dropoffs....) so changed back.
But I'll say this - and not to infer that I have greater driving talent, not in the least - going with a moderate to heavy oversteering car can be very dangerous for a less EXPERIENCED driver so buyer beware....
When did you talk to my wife, Pat?
I'll give this setup a shot! Thanks for all of the information!
mine are getting weak on the vette, replaced the hood ones back in the summer after it smacked me
The struts came in last night. I told my wife they were going on this weekend. Then she told me that she got whacked on the head a week ago when she was grabbing her bag.
lul
) are essentially the result of one of other end of the car having diminished traction as compared to the other end. Note I didn't say "out of control" or "complete-loss-of-adhesion". Best to think of it as that point where the tire has reached it's maximum level of adhesion just before losing it completely. Very key point.
) attitude and will therefore oversteer.
